No Jester & No Citizen game

[iggyvolz]

I have already posted this in the moderator forums but I wanted to open this up to the public. I was hoping to be able to play D before I had to start my game, but I guess that's not going to happen. I wanted to pass this by the community first.

One thing I've noticed about the FM games so far is that the role that many people dislike the most is citizen. I've seen more people lynched as citizen than anything else, and many citizens have voted themselves off.

Another role I personally don't like is Jester. It seems like everyone acts as jester, and this degrades from the gameplay.

With those in mind, I propose the following 10-5-5 role list:

Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Support
Town Killing
Town Killing
Town Power
Town Power
Godfather
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Bomber
Neutral Killing
Neutral Benign
Witch
Random Neutral

(Note: The neutrals are slightly modified from the version I put in the moderator forums to cause less of a bloodbath)


What does everyone think? Is a no citizen/no jester game too much or no?

[Rickdaily12]

You still have 19 roles.

I suggest "Random Neutral" as your last.

[iggyvolz]

You still have 19 roles.

I suggest "Random Neutral" as your last.

I just can't win, can I?

I'll just add Random Neutral to it.

[LeScraf]

Five mafia seems slightly overpowered, I'd suggest replacing Random Mafia or Witch/Bomber/Neutral Killing with a Random Town.

But what much do I know? I've never been in a game of Forum Mafia

[iggyvolz]

I'll put up signups to this in a couple days. People on backup from Rick's game get preference.

[iggyvolz]

Testing rapid post...

[TheThief]

Are you talking about no exec and jester or just jester. I feel like they both add entertainment to the game.

[iggyvolz]

Are you talking about no exec and jester or just jester. I feel like they both add entertainment to the game.

Sorry for the confusion, it would be neither for the sole reason that Executioner turns into Jester (if we could change that I would consider adding it in).

[Panzo]

A no citizen or jester game would pretty much be like a custom match so it's much more similar to the actual game but slower paced.

[Zero]

jester is the best role in the game.

[iggyvolz]

jester is the best role in the game.

I feel like everyone is acting like jesters in the game and it's just causing mass confusion.

Rick just made up a 15-chapter brilliant story for his game so I feel like I need something to counter it.

[LeScraf]

jester is the best role in the game.

I feel like everyone is acting like jesters in the game and it's just causing mass confusion.

Rick just made up a 15-chapter brilliant story for his game so I feel like I need something to counter it.

Look at the gif in my signature for what I think of that story.

[Guzame]

Honestly, the "acting like a jester" technique has yet to work out for anyone who used it including actual jesters, so I expect it to die out soon.

And I like the jester. It's basically a safety net for mafia.
"only a jester would act this anti-town."

[TheCow]

Role madness is always fun, I like it.

[iggyvolz]

I've had a change of heart and I'm doing this new role list:

Any
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Spoiler: Just kidding!

[enderitem]

Even just citizens with a Godfather and a Seriall Killer would be better than that. At least you know what you are dealing with.

[iggyvolz]

For the many people who thought I was serious, look at the spoiler. I was kidding

I'm honestly not sure whether I want to do this anymore. I'm staying on having no jesters for my game for sure, but I'm up for debate about citizens. The problem is it's just a "meh I'm citizen /vote self" 99% of the time (Exception: Rickdaily12 ). It's artificially increasing the mafia's power while annoying the heck out of everyone and adding no fun to the game.

[Veeena]

I've had a change of heart and I'm doing this new role list:

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Spoiler: I'm not kidding.

gg wp

[enderitem]

For the many people who thought I was serious, look at the spoiler. I was kidding

I'm honestly not sure whether I want to do this anymore. I'm staying on having no jesters for my game for sure, but I'm up for debate about citizens. The problem is it's just a "meh I'm citizen /vote self" 99% of the time (Exception: Rickdaily12 ). It's artificially increasing the mafia's power while annoying the heck out of everyone and adding no fun to the game.

Even that spoiler can't save you. You must burn for suggesting that abomination. I really want people to have a different approach for the jester. Being annoying or just plain obvious didn't get anyone except Icebolt lynched. I really liked how Pie played jester in the first game but that was it for the jester. I don't get how people are so angry at citizen. Citizen is a type of protection for power roles. If you help town a lot as a citizen, you immediately become a target. I think guzame played really good at game III B for example. He was a bodyguard but he didn't get investigated by the consigliere to get killed by mafia. He died because he was vocal and helpful and sadly he was the Bodyguard. Just because they can't send a night action to a moderator, they completely abstain from the game sometimes. I really want people to care because this game was actually made for psychological inspection and planning skills. That citizen attitude just dooms the town if you ask me.

RANT OVER!!

[iggyvolz]

Even that spoiler can't save you. You must burn for suggesting that abomination. I really want people to have a different approach for the jester. Being annoying or just plain obvious didn't get anyone except Icebolt lynched. I really liked how Pie played jester in the first game but that was it for the jester. I don't get how people are so angry at citizen. Citizen is a type of protection for power roles. If you help town a lot as a citizen, you immediately become a target. I think guzame played really good at game III B for example. He was a bodyguard but he didn't get investigated by the consigliere to get killed by mafia. He died because he was vocal and helpful and sadly he was the Bodyguard. Just because they can't send a night action to a moderator, they completely abstain from the game sometimes. I really want people to care because this game was actually made for psychological inspection and planning skills. That citizen attitude just dooms the town if you ask me.

RANT OVER!!

I completely agree 100% (don't even care that that was redundant). Honestly, if the attitude towards citizen would change (which I think it may be happening) then I would certainly add them in for my game.

And yes, I feel like trying to be wrong is completely fair for jesting, but just trying to be annoying to everyone and everything is just plain wrong. And those kinds of jesters rarely succeed in getting lynched but moreover use it for a free pass to annoy people. I guess if I was really strict on jesting then I could allow them, but I'd rather not spend 99% of my time policing jesters.

[iggyvolz]

So I do like the idea of having a no citizen game, but only if we can have some sort of game on the other side of the spectrum too. I personally don't understand how being a citizen is so drastically worse than being any other town role, but this solution does provide options for people who happen to feel that way.

Exactly - I don't think this is the only way that games should go. But having 2 going on at once will allow players to choose which game experience they want.

[Guzame]

Yes, I'm also considering a "classic" mafia game for variation.

Mafia originally had very few roles:

-Citizen
-Cops (Sheriffs)
-Mafia goons
-Godfather(optional)
No last wills, no deathnotes, no whispering.

The cop checks people at night to see if they're a goon. The godfather is immune to detection.
The godfather chooses who dies at night. If there is no Gf or he is dead, the goons vote for who dies.

It's a pretty fun game mode. This game relies purely on game discussion and misdirection.
With cops as the only town role, it's easy for the mafia to hide.
If you're a cop and you find mafia, should you reveal it? If you do, you'll be killed the next night. If you don't, the information could die with you. A better option may be getting them lynched by focusing on their suspicious behaviour without revealing who you are
are.
And if somebody claims to be a cop, can you really trust them? A sneaky mafia member could pretend to be a cop to get a townie lynched.

[MarcoTheRed]

Yes, I'm also considering a "classic" mafia game for variation.

Mafia originally had very few roles:

-Citizen
-Cops (Sheriffs)
-Mafia goons
-Godfather(optional)
No last wills, no deathnotes, no whispering.

The cop checks people at night to see if they're a goon. The godfather is immune to detection.
The godfather chooses who dies at night. If there is no Gf or he is dead, the goons vote for who dies.

It's a pretty fun game mode. This game relies purely on game discussion and misdirection.
With cops as the only town role, it's easy for the mafia to hide.
If you're a cop and you find mafia, should you reveal it? If you do, you'll be killed the next night. If you don't, the information could die with you. A better option may be getting them lynched by focusing on their suspicious behaviour without revealing who you are
are.
And if somebody claims to be a cop, can you really trust them? A sneaky mafia member could pretend to be a cop to get a townie lynched.

It could be fun, but the game should be much quicker then normal FM, otherwise it would get very boring.

[Guzame]

Yes, I'm also considering a "classic" mafia game for variation.

Mafia originally had very few roles:

-Citizen
-Cops (Sheriffs)
-Mafia goons
-Godfather(optional)
No last wills, no deathnotes, no whispering.

The cop checks people at night to see if they're a goon. The godfather is immune to detection.
The godfather chooses who dies at night. If there is no Gf or he is dead, the goons vote for who dies.

It's a pretty fun game mode. This game relies purely on game discussion and misdirection.
With cops as the only town role, it's easy for the mafia to hide.
If you're a cop and you find mafia, should you reveal it? If you do, you'll be killed the next night. If you don't, the information could die with you. A better option may be getting them lynched by focusing on their suspicious behaviour without revealing who you are
are.
And if somebody claims to be a cop, can you really trust them? A sneaky mafia member could pretend to be a cop to get a townie lynched.

It could be fun, but the game should be much quicker then normal FM, otherwise it would get very boring.

If anything, a game relying on discussion should have longer days, not shorter.

[MarcoTheRed]

Yes, I'm also considering a "classic" mafia game for variation.

Mafia originally had very few roles:

-Citizen
-Cops (Sheriffs)
-Mafia goons
-Godfather(optional)
No last wills, no deathnotes, no whispering.

The cop checks people at night to see if they're a goon. The godfather is immune to detection.
The godfather chooses who dies at night. If there is no Gf or he is dead, the goons vote for who dies.

It's a pretty fun game mode. This game relies purely on game discussion and misdirection.
With cops as the only town role, it's easy for the mafia to hide.
If you're a cop and you find mafia, should you reveal it? If you do, you'll be killed the next night. If you don't, the information could die with you. A better option may be getting them lynched by focusing on their suspicious behaviour without revealing who you are
are.
And if somebody claims to be a cop, can you really trust them? A sneaky mafia member could pretend to be a cop to get a townie lynched.

It could be fun, but the game should be much quicker then normal FM, otherwise it would get very boring.

If anything, a game relying on discussion should have longer days, not shorter.

You're right. Maybe you could try with 10-15 players to see how it goes, and if it works, do it with 20.