FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

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What do you consider your playstyle as?

Aggressive
13
25%
Passive
13
25%
In-between
16
31%
Other
4
8%
I don't pay attention/know what my playstyle is like
5
10%
 
Total votes : 51

Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Alzar » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:45 pm

That's assuming I actually know what I'm doing in FM, which is sadly not the case.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby ryanyb » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:41 am

Exacerbated wrote:
Alzar wrote:A question: When it comes to someone well known for being incredibly scummy even as Town, where is the line drawn between a policy lynch and a "true" lynch?


Even the most useless village idiots have different behavior as scum and town.

I AM OFFENDED.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby TrueGent » Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:58 am

ryanyb wrote:
Exacerbated wrote:
Alzar wrote:A question: When it comes to someone well known for being incredibly scummy even as Town, where is the line drawn between a policy lynch and a "true" lynch?


Even the most useless village idiots have different behavior as scum and town.

I AM OFFENDED.

You were a VI in NFM7 but you were far from useless
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby ryanyb » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:19 am

TrueGent wrote:
ryanyb wrote:
Exacerbated wrote:Even the most useless village idiots have different behavior as scum and town.

I AM OFFENDED.

You were a VI in NFM7 but you were far from useless

SIR, I TAKE OFFENSE.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby TrueGent » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:28 am

ryanyb wrote:SIR, I TAKE OFFENSE.

SIR I WISH FOR YOU TO CALM DOWN FOR I AM JUST TELLING THE TRUTH
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Alzar » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:29 am

Alzar wrote:A question: When it comes to someone well known for being incredibly scummy even as Town, where is the line drawn between a policy lynch and a "true" lynch?

reblogging this in search of a serious answer
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Lokiben » Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:30 am

Context
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby milte345 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:53 am

Alzar wrote:A question: When it comes to someone well known for being incredibly scummy even as Town, where is the line drawn between a policy lynch and a "true" lynch?

when they're scum
Source: Self
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Gobln » Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:01 pm

Anyway. I do believe if Knockoff returned we would play the best Forum Mafia ToS has seen. I believe though Cow is good he simply will forever lack motivation if he did not have it when i stole the #1 spot. In a perfect world where Knockoff returned and me and cow came into full form the Mafia would be similar to two supreme wizards fighting in a battle of knights. From the starting point we can tell that Knockoff holds a very strong starting position as he has the potential to shut down one of me or cows opening options. He does not know our metas and he we dont know his. Cow in peak form would immediately take advantage of this and lay the grounds for a potential sweep in the end game. Regardless of his alignment. If cow wins he wants to make it a full sweep. On the other hand i could see myself confiding in Knockoff.

Many of you may have not noticed this but when I play town i play a very communal aspect where I create circles and form my interactions between reads among them. I feel like Knockoff would be someone I try to eliminate in the off side. I would try to draw an NK kill to him. In a game where there are far, far less good players than bad it ends up becoming a game where the Top players duel off in a 1v1 sort of fashion and use the others as pawns. This is sometimes seen on other mafia sites but far less considering we have such a fluctuated good to bad ratio.


To continue. If me, knockoff and Cow faced off many, many times I would probably guess my Mafia win rate would be 95% or higher. I strongly believe I could push off the Knockoff scum reads in a fashion that is unnoticeable to the average player. The mass acceptance that gobln is town WILL take over knockoff in at least the majority of games. However if we're going off the standard rule set this huge advantage for me matters little.
When I am town I can guarantee I would win less than 50% of the time. Maybe even as low as 20%-35%. I think Town-Cow would give me just as much trouble as a town-knockoff (and yes this is still as me beinga townie)
In many respects the town+town aspect is something overlook. I think this is one of the BIGGEST MISTAKES for the mid-level people here on ToS. They always try to solo games thinking it will make them better. In reality Solo-games are almost always flukes and a waste of time and no real measurement of skill.

I feel like this is cow's biggest strength, that he can pull off solo-games (an anti-meta tactic ) is downlplayed too much. i think solo-gaming can be good but it will limit you as a player. I see this is cakez true problem at this point. Seriously, he thinks he should solo, but he really should confide in others.
Town knockoff is pretty standard rush-down Townie. We would not clash well town & town, and I feel like cow has the advantage in this respect. If me and Knock were both town Cow would have probably a 60% chance of clenching the victory.
Knockoff, me and Cow really portray the 3 ways of aggression in Forum Mafia

In one respect you have Knockoff who is easily the best regressive style of us 3. However this really isnt noteworthy as Knockoff would still play aggressively.
Cow is a controlled-aggression in many respects (exa made the names btw) and shit like that.
And then I am the all-out style of play.

Now I gotta take a detour here and express why I am still the best scum-player on this site, despite not playing recently.
So lots of this comes from people like Blinzer who really inspired me to improve as a player back in the day. Even when it was not ToS he showed me that there was a way to play ToS that wasnt shitty camp shit. Blinzer bends people to his will And i hate to dick ride him or anything but he IS the one who started it all. Blinzer inspired me to make flow which has morphed into a discord group. The discord group is the heart of ToS FM. Blinzer changed ToS a lot, and FM too indirectly.
Anyway, the reason why this matters is because Blinzer taught me to start playing the game like it was your life. My favorite line was always, "you're always playing salem". Even when I am not playing an FM game I will influence every game I play. For instance if I was set to play TrueGent in a game starting tomorrow the night before I would be nicer to TrueGent and make him prefer me to others. Its really this out-of-game play that makes me the best scum player. Theoretically I think it could make me the best town player but I have a multitude of problems in that alignment.

With Knockoff, Cow and Myself playing I truly believe it would be gameplay that we could be proud of. In the grand scheme of things we're about average in terms of mafia-skill on other sites. The thing about FM here is that playing games doesnt help you improve as much as it would on another site. You very likely have to play one or two games to catch up to another player who is better than you. On other sites its way easier to get a game with pretty skillfull people and just improve, improve, improve. The key to Mafia is not to hammer out useless reads its to experience the game itself. In a sense its "becoming one with the game". In every competitive game there is a certain state you can reach that makes you the best you can be. This is really what you strive for. I feel like usually 1-5 per game. When I played on TeamLiquid there was a moment in day 2 where I realize "holy shit, im jesus" and just hammered out scum and applied pressure correctly. In a similar respect a game like cfm9 I had many moments where really excelled in every aspect. I remember catching that one person who i cant remember the name, I called them out as neutral first day in a brilliant display of what my playstyle really holds in it. A force that cannot be stopped. (Its more so the playstyle i would like to be)

The Inner Game of tennis really emphasis on this ideal to go to a state of out-of-mindness. A state where you can simply do anything, say anything and still win the game. This is how Gucci feels when 14-0'ing some game as werewolf.
I'm sure some of you better players can relate to this feeling. Its abstract and there are loads of articles speaking about it better than I ever could.

Anyway, this is really where ToS FM has landed. A not-so-varied, really kind of shitty community. I really think ToS FM could become amazing if James2 started to rise. That guy, holy shit, he has the edge to do something so spectacular. There is gears working in his head, they may be rust, but believe the hype.
I think that ToS FM has a long way to grow. We have put ourselves in a very strained community. One one side you have the minority of people who want to bring FM back to a state more "safe" and "caring" On the other hand you have the majority of people Ive already went into this is one of my older posts.

In the end Im happy I've experienced Knockoff and Cow. They have taught me a lot on their respective play styles. My last thing I want to touch on his is how to shut down certain players styles.
The most obvious is Cakez. To beat cakes you simply act as if you are better than him in every aspect of his life. Cakez is my favorite player to watch (He improves at a fast rate) however cakez is still a young person, like me, so he has a problem with defeating egos so large they trump the whole game.
Another person easy to defeat is Rick. Now Rick is a strong player until you realize that he is nothing. See the trick with RickDaily is that he has a one-frame mindset of how to do things largely based off the lawyer-type play style. If you simply ignore him he crumbles.
I think someone like Swords can really struggle with people who move forward. Also, I must note. Swords is probably in the #20-11 range in terms of overall skill. There is actual potential we could see form.
Neasans is easy to beat. Just belittle everything she says. ITs a free win practically.
Hardest players to beat are Exaerbated and Ladd. They both have a really solid play style. I think everyone can notice this, they just play aggression-standard and do great.
I consider myself easy to beat, however it seems not a lot of people know how to beat me. It simply revolves around disregarding and ignoring me.

Anyway, thats about it.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Arcthurus » Fri May 06, 2016 6:00 pm

Added a poll.

Basically retaking discussion from this thread; the purpose which was describing your own playstyle, how it works for you, why use it above others, and just general thoughts about those different playstyles.


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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Exacerbated » Sat May 07, 2016 11:09 am

Calculated aggression is required to take advantage of key opportunities in a game.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Hiphoplog » Sun May 08, 2016 1:17 pm

Exacerbated wrote:Calculated aggression is required to take advantage of key opportunities in a game.

Not necessarily though.
Even a lurker can be not that aggressive or active, be reading the thread thoroughly, and still be able to post a wall every now and then that can make great points that can advance a point or change a view. it just takes the right player to do. Just like you can be aggressive and harmful to the town,
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Metrion » Sun May 08, 2016 1:29 pm

I'm pretty sure it's called assertive.


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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Exacerbated » Sun May 08, 2016 1:43 pm

Hiphoplog wrote:
Exacerbated wrote:Calculated aggression is required to take advantage of key opportunities in a game.

Not necessarily though.
Even a lurker can be not that aggressive or active, be reading the thread thoroughly, and still be able to post a wall every now and then that can make great points that can advance a point or change a view. it just takes the right player to do. Just like you can be aggressive and harmful to the town,


Calculated Aggression involves 3 things:

1.) Create situation where enemy is weak
2.) Identify weakness
3.) Exploit weakness

I would call what you described calculated aggression.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby ObiWan » Sun May 08, 2016 4:25 pm

A lot of people have chosen either passive, or in-between. I find that interesting.

What exactly do you guys define as "Passive play"?
Is passive just another form of lurking?

What strategies do you use as town when playing your style (Passive/Aggressive/In-between) to figure out who is scum?
This was not the scumslip you were looking for.


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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby taylork2 » Sun May 08, 2016 4:58 pm

ObiWan wrote:A lot of people have chosen either passive, or in-between. I find that interesting.

What exactly do you guys define as "Passive play"?
Is passive just another form of lurking?

What strategies do you use as town when playing your style (Passive/Aggressive/In-between) to figure out who is scum?

Well, for me passive play is observing, simply posting observations, and when posting making the assumption that everyone you're talking to could be town/scum. You also wait/bait scum into slipping rather than pushing them into a slip. The phrase "Think before you move" applies well to passive play(as far as I'm concerned atm).

Aggressive(for me) is when you expressly set one or more players as likely scum until they can prove/explain otherwise. You don't wait for scum to slip, instead you're actively pressuring players with questions, theories, and actively pushing your ideas and possibilities to the town. "The accuser" fits it well.

Personally, I'm a passive player at heart, but because of the heavy meta of players wanting more aggressive players(especially in the past) I've adapted a more in-between playstyle I usually use instead, where earlier in the game I play more aggressively or mostly aggressive, but later I'll be mostly passive and post more ideas than accusations.

And no, passive is not lurking, a passive player can vet/scum bait other players, make abstract observations, look for correlations without framing players, etc. Passive players can easily become lurkers if there is a lack of events, deaths, or claims in the town as I've experienced in the past, however they're most important in those situations where claiming is a constant.


Also here's a vidoe behind a spoiler, that hardly relates to playstyles, however it does relate to meta usage or more specifically to the people who use meta.
Spoiler:
Le pain train est arrivant.

FM Wins/Loss Record:
Spoiler: CFM18:alouvre/Misdreavus=Loss
SFM21:Naoto Shirogane=Win
CFM17:milte/Blinzer=Win
CFM16:Rogue=Loss
CFM15:Saitama=Win
9B:Veteran=Win
CFM14:Red Spy=Loss
8E:Escort=Win
CFM13:Mettaton=Loss
8C: Goyle Sr.=Win
CFM12:Vo Matoran=Win
CFM11:Mad Man=Loss
7H:Framer=Win
7F:Medium=Win
GFM:Bodyguard=Win
6E:Citizen=Loss
CFM4:Arcane=Loss
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Gobln » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:21 pm

So I've been thinking a lot about self inflicted ignorance or purposefully denying yourself of information to gain the upper hand.

What it entails is a player not absorbing all the information they can at the current moment. For instance, a player choosing to ignore someone's reads, or a player purposefully avoiding and ignoring another player for whatever reason.

I think for most new players, this is a skill they should learn. Instead of stretching themselves thin over an entire game, they just focus on 80% of the game, and ignore other players. Most people aren't superheros, and they can't focus on every player in a 17p game. In many ways, it's better to ignore the people you want to ignore, and focus on the people would feel like you can read.
Since this is a team game, in an ideal scenario one town member would focus on 50% of the game completely, and another would focus on the remaining 50%. They would then join their reads together and solve the game as a pair.

This ties into my general belief that games solve themselves. As time goes on, town naturally becomes stronger. Players will often panic as games go into later days, but they should realize the game is solved right under their noses, they just have to look down.

Instead of stressing and worrying over logic and analysis, players should look at the day in front of them and judge for themselves.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Harkonnen97 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:09 am

LMAO
I know I should have listened to your reads Gobln, I'm sorry :D
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby realMandingo » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:06 pm

Honestly I don't know what I'm doing. I just write what I think, but I would say I take more of a logical and methodical approach to posting over pure emotion. Sometimes that backfires badly on me though.

To me, aggressive play is actively engaging with other players, creating discussion and interactions and pushing for or against players. Passive play to me is allowing other players to engage in interaction for you, and then choosing to engage in discussion or not, while voting at your own discretion.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby ChubbyMooshroom9 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:35 pm

Kirize12 wrote:can your name like not be a pornstar (._. )

can you stop being a lil' bitch

realMandingo wrote:Honestly I don't know what I'm doing. I just write what I think, but I would say I take more of a logical and methodical approach to posting over pure emotion. Sometimes that backfires badly on me though.

To me, aggressive play is actively engaging with other players, creating discussion and interactions and pushing for or against players. Passive play to me is allowing other players to engage in interaction for you, and then choosing to engage in discussion or not, while voting at your own discretion.

thats fine-the more you play the more you get used to it. What you said isn't wrong, but not right though. You want to post what you feel, but try to logically do it so others can follow
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Gobln » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:52 pm

My playstyle is freestyle.
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Re: FM Strategy and Game Theory Discussions

Postby Shilster » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:27 am

tbh I like being passive in irl conversations, wait until people are done talking, then reply to them afterwards
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