[Newcomer FM] NFM 2 | Mafia Wins! (Insert Salt here)

[Swordsworth]

Hello, hello. I'm glad to get another shot at this, because contrary to popular believe dying Night 1 isn't fun. For this reason I will be formally requesting protection tonight.

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Just to get some more discussion here:

How should we go about the Spy here? Should we have them message someone today to confirm their existence? Or should we keep them folded away?

Confirming their existence just alerts the Mafia to another way of messing up information. Not necessary.

I can see the pros and cons to either but I'm leaning against. Interesting topic and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

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Delving into more hypotheticals:

At what point would you insist we all hard claim in the thread? When do you think we benefit from this the most if at all?

We'd benefit from this probably Day 3, in my opinion.

Responses is bold.

[Alzar]

For Spy, I'm pretty sure the Spy's message will look exactly like a Blackmailer's message. Nobody should claim to a message someone sends to them.

Also, for Witch, I'm not going to deny that a Witch could be dangerous. I mean, I barely used my night action in 7C and still won while the Town destroyed themselves.

[Lokiben]

Hello, hello. I'm glad to get another shot at this, because contrary to popular believe dying Night 1 isn't fun. For this reason I will be formally requesting protection tonight.

----

Just to get some more discussion here:

How should we go about the Spy here? Should we have them message someone today to confirm their existence? Or should we keep them folded away?

Confirming their existence just alerts the Mafia to another way of messing up information. Not necessary.

I can see the pros and cons to either but I'm leaning against. Interesting topic and I'd like to hear some thoughts.

----

Delving into more hypotheticals:

At what point would you insist we all hard claim in the thread? When do you think we benefit from this the most if at all?

We'd benefit from this probably Day 3, in my opinion.

Responses is bold.

I'm missing something. Wouldn't it still be better to know if there is a spy OR blackmailer than to not?

[SirCakez]

Question to everyone: should players reveal if they receive an anonymous message and if so, what it contains?

[Lokiben]

It probably depends on the context but I'm not the expert here

[Metrion]

Spy would show up exactly as Blackmailer and vice versa.


Indeed Lokiben, the positive to forcing any Spy or BMer is that it puts them onto the table and allows use to use those resources accordingly, however the Mafia knowing for sure whether or not a Spy exists is incredibly disastrous as it's one less pitfall or something they know to avoid/actively confuse. Meanwhile we have to question whether or not they are a BMer or Spy.

Now take this concept, and apply it to other Town roles. We will do much better the longer we keep our cards close to our chests, make good plays with them at night but use your voice to back yourself up during the day to keep anything you have a mystery.



As such I think it's prudent to only reveal messages if you think they should be revealed. It's really hard to make an over-arcing call but I think if it gives you the suspicious feel then you should alert the authorities. Thing is if that was actually a Spy then you revealed that to Mafia. As well I agree we shouldn't claim or reveal any important information in these whispers.

[CJBlack44]

Well, I was going to answer Metrion but Alzar already said pretty much everything I wanted to say so yeah, ninja-ed )

Since we won't know whether it's a Spy or BM-er that sends us the message, it'll be useless to have them whisper...won't it? All it will do is make us try and figure out whether or not it's a Spy or a BM-er...I can see a lot of things potentially going wrong with this to be honest.

I don't think anyone should hardclaim anything at all, we'd just be guiding the Mafia and the Witch toward the best targets! Unless at least the Witch is dead, or the hardclaim comes with some very good info, a PR shouldn't reveal at all, this is my opinion. And if that's the case, I don't think we can put a "perfect time" tag on it...?

Also, I don't see where you guys are coming from tbh, most of the time I find Neutrals easier to spot than Mafia members o.O It's not always the case of course.

PS: just a fair warning guys, I might not be on much tomorrow. I'll have loads of work to do and might not find a lot of time to be here but after tomorrow everything will go back to normal (I'm a fairly active person). I had no idea the game would start so soon tbh, I barely PM-ed Obi this morning for the spot and I didn't realize the game would be starting as soon as I replaced in. Sorry for the inconvenience. If I'm lucky, I'll be able to finish everything tonight and tomorrow morning. But I'm letting you know just in case.

[Mindslayer]

Question to everyone: should players reveal if they receive an anonymous message and if so, what it contains?

1. Yes. It adds more information to the role list. Mafia will know that there's a spy, though, so that's a downside.
2. I'm not sure. I'd say that it depends on the situation, like if a spy/bm revealed who he was through whisper when he's about to be lynched for being a witch then the person whispered should say it. If the spy sent some message with no point to it then that's up to the reciever to say so.

p edit: ninjad hardcore

[melanora]

An FYI about myself - I will be inactive from tomorrow afternoon through Sunday afternoon, but, with the way that N1 lines up, or should line up, I'll just be late on Sunday really for the start of D2.

[SirCakez]

I concur no one should hardclaim, it only helps scum. Exceptions to this are if someone is on the stand to get lynched and if a TI finds scum/can prevent a mislynch with inno results. Do not claim to an anonymous message for obvious reasons, if a message requests such a claim, you should reveal it as it is essentially fishing and almost certainly scum-aligned.

[Alzar]

Nobody should hardclaim unless they're at L-2 and they're trapped.

There are very few situations where someone should hardclaim, but here's a rough guideline of good times to hardclaim:
1) If it stops the death of a Townie (mislynch, Vigilante bullet, etc.)
2) If it results in scum being lynched (guilty Sheriff result, a lie found in night results, etc.)
3) If you feel the game absolutely cannot continue without it (WIFOM hell, massclaim, rare situations)

[Alzar]

Nobody should hardclaim if they think they'll be lynched unless they're at L-2 and they're trapped.

There are very few situations where someone should hardclaim, but here's a rough guideline of good times to hardclaim:
1) If it stops the death of a Townie (mislynch, Vigilante bullet, etc.)
2) If it results in scum being lynched (guilty Sheriff result, a lie found in night results, etc.)
3) If you feel the game absolutely cannot continue without it (WIFOM hell, massclaim, rare situations)

Fixed for clarification.

[Mindslayer]

What's WIFOM hell?

[Lokiben]

I have another question; how does the marshal work? Does he know when he scares someone off? Does his target know when someone is scared off? What message does the scare-ee get?

[melanora]

WIFOM - ever seen the Princess Bride? It's Wine In Front Of Me.

[melanora]

Mafia Scum describes it better than I could.

[Alzar]

What's WIFOM hell?

Alright, so WIFOM is a bit of a difficult concept for new people. I think it can best be explained in the video where the name originated from.

WIFOM is the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that their behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Basically, it's the place where you go "but maybe that's what they WANT us to think" and you're led in a circle of "maybe they mean for us to think that they want us to think that".

Yeah, I know it's confusing.

[Alzar]

Marshal

(This role is still in the experimental stages ~ It will not yet appear in Episodes for the time being.)

You are a Marshal.

Your alignment is Town Protective.

Once a figurehead of the law, you experienced a horrific accident and have vowed not to kill anymore. Instead you decide to use your presence as a deterrent to these thugs that have rooted themselves in your hometown.

Each night you may choose to follow a player. Your presence scares one malicious person from targeting them.
You will only be informed if you scare away a role who had killing intentions.
Should your target be visited by multiple people with malicious intent, only one will flee. (Mafia Deception > Witch/Escort/Consort > Killing Roles)
Roles that use charges will still consume them upon being frightened off.

You win with the Town
You win with Survivors
You must kill the Mafia
You must kill Arsonists
You must kill Witches
You must kill Serial Killers
You must kill Stalkers
You must kill Bombers
You may spare anyone else

[Lokiben]

Thanks

[melanora]

Here's a game example of WIFOM:

I always say NEVER TRUST OBIWAN. It's my number one rule in Mafia. Why? Because I cannot read Obi, and he has gotten past me as scum a few times.
Now, in a previous game, Obi tried to have me killed N1. It didn't work. I constantly said, in response, that the first time I rolled Serial Killer, I was going to kill him Night One.
In 7R, I rolled Serial Killer, and Obi was a player.
Now the question was, did I attack Obi Night One? If I did, it might point to me. BUT, if I was the Serial Killer, why would I point fingers at myself by attacking the person I say I will always attack once I rolled SK?

Wine in Front of Me.

For the record, I attacked Alouvre instead, and Obi was lynched D2 as the Bomber because he claimed to have been a Protective that Protected the Veteran, Swordsworth... and then when he was questioned about it he claimed that he was drunk when he sent in his night submission.

[Alzar]

The important thing is to not freak out about WIFOM. Here's an example of a game: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19710
(it's my first game, so that's probably a bit like showing you guys my baby pictures???)

Basically, this guy kept freaking out over WIFOM even though he barely knew what it was. He kept going on about how "maybe it's WIFOM!!" and eventually got mislynched and let scum win, gg.

Just keep your cool and remember that it's alright to make mistakes, k?

[CJBlack44]

For the record, I attacked Alouvre instead, and Obi was lynched D2 as the Bomber because he claimed to have been a Protective that Protected the Veteran, Swordsworth... and then when he was questioned about it he claimed that he was drunk when he sent in his night submission.

LOL!!!

WIFOM gets me every time tbh I get stressed up to the point where my poor dysfunctional brain can't take it anymore. Then I rant. Because I'm stressed out and don't know who or what to believe anymore. But eh, let's hope that won't happen here...

[ObiWan]

For the record, I attacked Alouvre instead, and Obi was lynched D2 as the Bomber because he claimed to have been a Protective that Protected the Veteran, Swordsworth... and then when he was questioned about it he claimed that he was drunk when he sent in his night submission.

LOL!!!

WIFOM gets me every time tbh I get stressed up to the point where my poor dysfunctional brain can't take it anymore. Then I rant. Because I'm stressed out and don't know who or what to believe anymore. But eh, let's hope that won't happen here...

When in doubt, always claim you were drunk. Unless you are really underage...XD

[HereToPlay]

For the record, I attacked Alouvre instead, and Obi was lynched D2 as the Bomber because he claimed to have been a Protective that Protected the Veteran, Swordsworth... and then when he was questioned about it he claimed that he was drunk when he sent in his night submission.

LOL!!!

WIFOM gets me every time tbh I get stressed up to the point where my poor dysfunctional brain can't take it anymore. Then I rant. Because I'm stressed out and don't know who or what to believe anymore. But eh, let's hope that won't happen here...

When in doubt, always claim you were drunk. Unless you are really underage...XD

If you are underage, then what? Claim being drunk by drinking soft drinks?

[MamiT0m0e]

When in doubt, always claim you were drunk. Unless you are really underage...XD

If you are underage, then what? Claim being drunk by drinking soft drinks?

No that is how you soft claim being drunk