[Newcomer FM] NFM1 | "Getting Schooled" (Town & Exe Wins!)

[CJBlack44]

@Alouvre: I was hoping you guys would have more input there

I have no idea tbh. I know neutrals are shifty and they can't always be trusted. But I'm going off the simple assumption that everyone wants to win, and I think it would be easier for a neutral to win with Town.

An executioner has a great chance of becoming jester with so few townies in the game, and a jester has literally almost no chance of getting lynched by Mafia. Mafia wouldn't care about the neutrals because they can't just out themselves and say "hey, I'm mafia, whoever is neutral, vote with me", therefore they can't directly request the help of a neutral unless we reach a point where none can win without the neutral's help. But at that point, it might be impossible to give them the win.

We have a risk of having a Mafia member claim Executioner, with another Mafia member as their target, which means that if someone DOES come forth and claim executioner, their claim should be verified before anything else. Or at least I think so.

@Metrion: You are right, of course, I'm not saying that there's anyone I'd completely refuse to trust if they claimed or, otherwise, someone I'd 100% trust the moment they claimed. I'm just saying that ANY sheriff claim should be taken with a healthy dose of doubt, as they could be a Neutral, or a Mafia member trying to pretend to be a Neutral and\or out the real TI. Truthfully, I didn't even realize you asked about a sheriff revealing NOW, as in right now, when we have so little to form our reads from. But, if they seem scummy, I would doubt them more than if they didn't seem scummy. Naturally.

[Mindslayer]

The best way for town to win along with striking a deal with the neutral would be for them to reveal D2 and act as a citizen to help lynch mafia, then have their target lynched or get lynched at the end of the game once it's clear that there's no way mafia can win. I think having a neutral team with us can be helpful if they could be trusted. So, no.

i got ninjad

[alouvre]

An executioner has a great chance of becoming jester with so few townies in the game, and a jester has literally almost no chance of getting lynched by Mafia. Mafia wouldn't care about the neutrals because they can't just out themselves and say "hey, I'm mafia, whoever is neutral, vote with me", therefore they can't directly request the help of a neutral unless we reach a point where none can win without the neutral's help. But at that point, it might be impossible to give them the win.

Mafa's done that before. But they won't be able to do it tomorrow, unless by some chance a vet shoots a townie or two. I believe somebody already mentioned that the neutral probably won't be siding with somebody, unless it's an exe that already won or s/t and we're still battling it out.

We have a risk of having a Mafia member claim Executioner, with another Mafia member as their target, which means that if someone DOES come forth and claim executioner, their claim should be verified before anything else. Or at least I think so.

An actual executioner doing this is probably very low, as their target will not be killed regardless.

@Metrion: You are right, of course, I'm not saying that there's anyone I'd completely refuse to trust if they claimed or, otherwise, someone I'd 100% trust the moment they claimed. I'm just saying that ANY sheriff claim should be taken with a healthy dose of doubt, as they could be a Neutral, or a Mafia member trying to pretend to be a Neutral and\or out the real TI. Truthfully, I didn't even realize you asked about a sheriff revealing NOW, as in right now, when we have so little to form our reads from. But, if they seem scummy, I would doubt them more than if they didn't seem scummy. Naturally.

If they seem scummy? Is there anybody who is pinging your radar at the moment?

The best way for town to win along with striking a deal with the neutral would be for them to reveal D2 and act as a citizen to help lynch mafia, then have their target lynched or get lynched at the end of the game once it's clear that there's no way mafia can win. I think having a neutral team with us can be helpful if they could be trusted. So, no.

What do you mean by 'no'? How would you determine whether if they are to be trusted?

[Mindslayer]

You can't, since they're neutral. They'll side with the winning team and will switch sides if it benefits them more.

[CJBlack44]

@Metrion: You are right, of course, I'm not saying that there's anyone I'd completely refuse to trust if they claimed or, otherwise, someone I'd 100% trust the moment they claimed. I'm just saying that ANY sheriff claim should be taken with a healthy dose of doubt, as they could be a Neutral, or a Mafia member trying to pretend to be a Neutral and\or out the real TI. Truthfully, I didn't even realize you asked about a sheriff revealing NOW, as in right now, when we have so little to form our reads from. But, if they seem scummy, I would doubt them more than if they didn't seem scummy. Naturally.

If they seem scummy? Is there anybody who is pinging your radar at the moment?

A little bit, yes. I'm not saying these opinions are reliable. I DO realize it's day 1 and I DO logically realize that day 1 reads have a huge chance of being shit, which is why I'm not saying anything or pointing any fingers. Also, if I DO say I suspect someone, that someone is more likely to be investigated (if TI suspects no one else) AND framed if they are town.

But, I'm just saying, if one of the people who seem suspicious to me atm came forward and claimed Sheriff, I would at least raise the eyebrow.

I'm not saying my opinions are correct, but we all have opinions at this point. I wouldn't believe anyone who told me that right now they don't think one person is scummier\townier than another. Everyone SHOULD be taking these opinions with a healthy dose of doubt, yes, because it's day 1. But I do believe those opinions are there.

[Metrion]

@CJ

I'm not taking it to the extreme as you mentioned, but merely saying that it's not exactly in the correct mind-frame to hold anyone higher than other's on the trust meter with anything so baseless as I've seen people make that mistake before.

I'd trust some people far more than others.

You can see how your line is inferring that you already have formed some opinions, some which are stress by the words far more, I'm stating that I disagree with that. It seems a little weird if you were holding the context in the future given you had said you would trust some people over others sounding like it's more of a set thing. Perhaps I'm looking a bit too closely into the wording but that's what I pulled from my initial read.

Still, important lesson in my opinion.

[RhazhBash]

@Mindslayer I wouldn't bank on having a Neutral save us. At the point where an Executioner is the deciding vote between equal teams of Town and Mafia, they're more likely to hit their Townie target. A Jester in a 2v2v1 would want to not vote anyone, so he could convince the Mafia to vote him before the game ends once it hits 1v2v1. Executioners need to be lynched once found unless a Mafia pops up, and Jesters should be ignored entirely since we have no way to safely kill them.

[CJBlack44]

@CJ

I'm not taking it to the extreme as you mentioned, but merely saying that it's not exactly in the correct mind-frame to hold anyone higher than other's on the trust meter with anything so baseless as I've seen people make that mistake before.

I'd trust some people far more than others.

You can see how your line is inferring that you already have formed some opinions, some which are stress by the words far more, I'm stating that I disagree with that. It seems a little weird if you were holding the context in the future given you had said you would trust some people over others sounding like it's more of a set thing. Perhaps I'm looking a bit too closely into the wording but that's what I pulled from my initial read.

Still, important lesson in my opinion.

Yes, sadly, it's an awful tendency of mine to exaggerate things. "Far more" doesn't actually mean "far more" to me, it just means "more" and it's just my shitty way of expressing myself sometimes. I've been told on more than one occasion that I tend to do that and I keep trying to get rid of it but it keeps coming back sometimes.

Also, when I said that, I did mean it for a future where I'd hopefully have more information. Like I previously stated, I didn't realize you were talking about a sheriff revealing now, as in, today. I don't see why you would find that weird, it's natural that, as the game progresses, our opinions of the others will become more defined, our suspicions stronger and our reads more confident. Therefore, we will trust some people more than others. Does that not make sense? I don't see why it wouldn't.

Yes, I do know I can't convince you at the moment that my words were not meant the way you interpreted them, especially since it's my fault for using the wrong ones. I did not miss your advice and I will take note to avoid saying such things in the future. My choice of words was poor, I agree, they just didn't sound like that in my head.

What I meant was, right now I have formed some opinions, I do find some people slightly suspicious (as much as you can find someone suspicious day 1), I do realize that day 1 reads are shit but still my gut feeling would make me doubt their claim if they claimed sheriff right now. I also meant that the person who claims sheriff should be taken into consideration along with everything else as the claim could be a trap (I explained why and how in my previous post).

[alouvre]

I see. Thank you.

@Mindslayer I wouldn't bank on having a Neutral save us. At the point where an Executioner is the deciding vote between equal teams of Town and Mafia, they're more likely to hit their Townie target. A Jester in a 2v2v1 would want to not vote anyone, so he could convince the Mafia to vote him before the game ends once it hits 1v2v1. Executioners need to be lynched once found unless a Mafia pops up, and Jesters should be ignored entirely since we have no way to safely kill them.

Can you elaborate on why you believe an executioner should be lynched once found?

I didn't really find CJ's wording weird, honestly.

[Metrion]

I don't find chasing after wording to be a viable scum tell really, because frankly I'm not you I can't tell if that was a mistake enough to scum you up for it. However your whole attitude around it can be quite telling if one can read people like that.

Please don't avoid saying as much as just try to keep a mindset of valuing peoples contributions over any other pre-existing values, opinions and reputations. I think I've squeezed as much productivity as I could from that train of thought, moving on I'd like to ask people if they have any thoughts on the concept of mass claiming (everyone publically out there role in order to force CCs and elevate the average of information.) just in general?

[RhazhBash]

I see. Thank you.

@Mindslayer I wouldn't bank on having a Neutral save us. At the point where an Executioner is the deciding vote between equal teams of Town and Mafia, they're more likely to hit their Townie target. A Jester in a 2v2v1 would want to not vote anyone, so he could convince the Mafia to vote him before the game ends once it hits 1v2v1. Executioners need to be lynched once found unless a Mafia pops up, and Jesters should be ignored entirely since we have no way to safely kill them.

Can you elaborate on why you believe an executioner should be lynched once found?

I didn't really find CJ's wording weird, honestly.

Simple answer, we shouldn't ally with someone trying to kill one of us with how close we start to MyLo.

Not so simple answer, the Town would pretty much have to lynch a Mafia the next two days before we have enough of an advantage for it to be safe to intentionally lynch our teammate. Even if his target is a citizen, having that confirmed vote for Town is better than a vote that can go either way. If his target is a power role then we can forget about teaming up with him at all.

[alouvre]

Massclaiming will be tough. Scum can wait to claim and pick a more viable one. There may be a lot of CCs in the citizen slots as well. Mafia will have free picking. If we are to massclaim, we should do it as late as possible when there are more flips, more information, and more insight on the rolelist.

Simple answer, we shouldn't ally with someone trying to kill one of us with how close we start to MyLo.

Not so simple answer, the Town would pretty much have to lynch a Mafia the next two days before we have enough of an advantage for it to be safe to intentionally lynch our teammate. Even if his target is a citizen, having that confirmed vote for Town is better than a vote that can go either way. If his target is a power role then we can forget about teaming up with him at all.

Do you feel as if it will be problematic if we simply ignored an outed exe instead of lynching them?

[RhazhBash]

Massclaiming will be tough. Scum can wait to claim and pick a more viable one. There may be a lot of CCs in the citizen slots as well. Mafia will have free picking. If we are to massclaim, we should do it as late as possible when there are more flips, more information, and more insight on the rolelist.

Simple answer, we shouldn't ally with someone trying to kill one of us with how close we start to MyLo.

Not so simple answer, the Town would pretty much have to lynch a Mafia the next two days before we have enough of an advantage for it to be safe to intentionally lynch our teammate. Even if his target is a citizen, having that confirmed vote for Town is better than a vote that can go either way. If his target is a power role then we can forget about teaming up with him at all.

Do you feel as if it will be problematic if we simply ignored an outed exe instead of lynching them?

Mafia and Exe have a common interest, killing Townies. Assuming his target doesn't die an Exe is pretty much a guarenteed vote with Mafia, because Mafia like lynching Townies just as much as the Exe does. Jesters can be ignored because Mafia are less likely to vote someone that could kill them after they flip.

[CJBlack44]

I don't find chasing after wording to be a viable scum tell really, because frankly I'm not you I can't tell if that was a mistake enough to scum you up for it. However your whole attitude around it can be quite telling if one can read people like that.

Please don't avoid saying as much as just try to keep a mindset of valuing peoples contributions over any other pre-existing values, opinions and reputations. I think I've squeezed as much productivity as I could from that train of thought, moving on I'd like to ask people if they have any thoughts on the concept of mass claiming (everyone publically out there role in order to force CCs and elevate the average of information.) just in general?

OH! I get it now, what you were saying! What you understood from what I said that is. Let me assure you this was not the case - I don't know anyone here, lol. Well, I do know TheCow and Kmenx a bit, but only a very tiny bit, because I played a game with them but it was a very short game and I didn't even get any opinions of them as players. Me saying I'd trust some people more than others, I didn't mean the players themselves as people, judging by playstyle or whatever else, I meant in this game, based on what they've said so far. I would have no other reason to trust\not trust because, like I said, I don't know anyone
That said, I do have an unhealthy tendency to use everything in the superlative :-S
Now I totally get what you were saying and I agree we should move on.

I still can't figure whether the small number of players in this game would make mass claiming, or just claiming, better or worse TBH. It could work out for the best, as it would narrow the pool of suspects, making it easier for TI to find Mafia. But it could also go wrong because we might have 2 very important roles and only one protective. I'm normally against mass claiming (unless it's claiming to a confirmed town, by whispers), but this game is harder than others it seems, because we're in such a delicate situation from the very beginning. I can't decide for this game but, in general, I'm fairly against it. I feel it often helps scum more than town.

About the exe: Lynching an exe who's unwilling to side with town would only be better than a no lynch. Ideally, we should lynch Mafia, not focus on the Neutral.

[MamiT0m0e]

I still can't figure whether the small number of players in this game would make mass claiming, or just claiming, better or worse TBH. It could work out for the best, as it would narrow the pool of suspects, making it easier for TI to find Mafia. But it could also go wrong because we might have 2 very important roles and only one protective. I'm normally against mass claiming (unless it's claiming to a confirmed town, by whispers), but this game is harder than others it seems, because we're in such a delicate situation from the very beginning. I can't decide for this game but, in general, I'm fairly against it. I feel it often helps scum more than town.

About the exe: Lynching an exe who's unwilling to side with town would only be better than a no lynch. Ideally, we should lynch Mafia, not focus on the Neutral.

On the subject of mass role claiming I think we should avoid it until we have no other way to discern any info for town (2 town investigators are confirmed dead). And on the subject of Exe's IMO if we lynch an exe who is willing to help town as much as he can and is actively pro town... think a no lynch would be better than out right lynching him...

[Kindred]

Hi! I'm sorry! I was expecting a message telling me when the day started - didn't think to check the game boards until now.

Another question I'll throw out for discussion: when should a PR out themselves, if not for suspicion?

I think it depends on the PR. For example, if we are debating whether to lynch X or Y, an invest/sheriff could step up and claim. It would be problematic if there was a framer out there and then the invest/sheriff could be under suspicion if the person they claimed was town. The invest/sheriff would also require protection the next night in case of mafia kills.

About the exe: Lynching an exe who's unwilling to side with town would only be better than a no lynch. Ideally, we should lynch Mafia, not focus on the Neutral.

I'm going to agree with CJ Black. If there an outed Exe and we have proof that he's Exe and not Mafia, I don't think we should lynch them. I don't want to use up a lynch on a neutral.


(ps, hey RhazhBash! remember me from CFM 10? )

[Kindred]

Hi! I'm sorry! I was expecting a message telling me when the day started - didn't think to check the game boards until now.

Another question I'll throw out for discussion: when should a PR out themselves, if not for suspicion?

I think it depends on the PR. For example, if we are debating whether to lynch X or Y, an invest/sheriff could step up and claim. It would be problematic if there was a framer out there and then the invest/sheriff could be under suspicion if the person they claimed to be scum was town. The invest/sheriff would also require protection the next night in case of mafia kills.

About the exe: Lynching an exe who's unwilling to side with town would only be better than a no lynch. Ideally, we should lynch Mafia, not focus on the Neutral.

I'm going to agree with CJ Black. If there an outed Exe and we have proof that he's Exe and not Mafia, I don't think we should lynch them. I don't want to use up a lynch on a neutral.


(ps, hey RhazhBash! remember me from CFM 10? )

fixed

[Mindslayer]

I still can't figure whether the small number of players in this game would make mass claiming, or just claiming, better or worse TBH. It could work out for the best, as it would narrow the pool of suspects, making it easier for TI to find Mafia. But it could also go wrong because we might have 2 very important roles and only one protective. I'm normally against mass claiming (unless it's claiming to a confirmed town, by whispers), but this game is harder than others it seems, because we're in such a delicate situation from the very beginning. I can't decide for this game but, in general, I'm fairly against it. I feel it often helps scum more than town.

About the exe: Lynching an exe who's unwilling to side with town would only be better than a no lynch. Ideally, we should lynch Mafia, not focus on the Neutral.

On the subject of mass role claiming I think we should avoid it until we have no other way to discern any info for town (2 town investigators are confirmed dead). And on the subject of Exe's IMO if we lynch an exe who is willing to help town as much as he can and is actively pro town... think a no lynch would be better than out right lynching him...

Are you sure? He could easily be mafia acting like that and there's no way we can trust him/her. I'll go with lynching the exe /if/ town can afford it.

[alouvre]

Alright, I see.

There will probably be at least three 'very important roles,' as one of the RTs are guaranteed to be a PR. And some things will change entirely based off what roles the mafia have - if they don't have a framer, disguiser, or consort, massclaiming will most likely help our investigatives. The problem is framer is tough to find, and by the time we're able to confirm its existence, it'll probably be too late. Consorts can also hide themselves pretty well, although if there is a roleblock, mathematically it will be more likely to be a consort than an escort, as consorts can roll in two slots (that only have three possibilities) while escorts can only roll in one (that has twelve possibilities). And the intentions, although they may be ambiguous at first, often clear themselves by D3 - assuming we get there.

Although, we can try to pull another 7C where people claimed in (handmade) code and then explained it later on. This could potentially lock scum into an undesirable claim.

And, friendly reminder that the day is ending in 10 hours and 20 minutes, approximately. Those who haven't posted should check in soon.

[alouvre]

On the subject of mass role claiming I think we should avoid it until we have no other way to discern any info for town (2 town investigators are confirmed dead). And on the subject of Exe's IMO if we lynch an exe who is willing to help town as much as he can and is actively pro town... think a no lynch would be better than out right lynching him...

Honestly, I feel as if this rolelist is a bit more scumsided than it is townsided, so the neutrals probably won't even have time to play long con before town loses majority. Rzazh brings up a good point in how exes want to lynch town as much as mafia does, so they'll more than likely be a scum vote than anything.

[MamiT0m0e]

I still can't figure whether the small number of players in this game would make mass claiming, or just claiming, better or worse TBH. It could work out for the best, as it would narrow the pool of suspects, making it easier for TI to find Mafia. But it could also go wrong because we might have 2 very important roles and only one protective. I'm normally against mass claiming (unless it's claiming to a confirmed town, by whispers), but this game is harder than others it seems, because we're in such a delicate situation from the very beginning. I can't decide for this game but, in general, I'm fairly against it. I feel it often helps scum more than town.

About the exe: Lynching an exe who's unwilling to side with town would only be better than a no lynch. Ideally, we should lynch Mafia, not focus on the Neutral.

On the subject of mass role claiming I think we should avoid it until we have no other way to discern any info for town (2 town investigators are confirmed dead). And on the subject of Exe's IMO if we lynch an exe who is willing to help town as much as he can and is actively pro town... think a no lynch would be better than out right lynching him...

Are you sure? He could easily be mafia acting like that and there's no way we can trust him/her. I'll go with lynching the exe /if/ town can afford it.

Yes, that is always a possibility that that is happening, And yes, i do agree if town can afford it we should lynch the Exe.
But what would be a situation where town could not afford it?
Would that be something like 5 town Vs 3 Maf Plus an confirmed Exe on the side?

[Mindslayer]

...Then you would lynch the mafia. Obvious choice.

[alouvre]

The only time we'll be able to see the exe's true intentions would be in a situation where townies match the number of mafia alive + the neutral, I think. If they really want to side with town, then town retains majority. Otherwise, town loses.

But the better question is, why would an exe be outed? The only role that can confirm an exe is consigliere, and by claiming their target will most likely not be lynched then.

Although, if somebody claims exe tomorrow, what should we do? Should we lynch them, even if they may be a jester? Will that risk be better than simply nolynching?

[MamiT0m0e]

The only time we'll be able to see the exe's true intentions would be in a situation where townies match the number of mafia alive + the neutral, I think. If they really want to side with town, then town retains majority. Otherwise, town loses.

But the better question is, why would an exe be outed? The only role that can confirm an exe is consigliere, and by claiming their target will most likely not be lynched then.

Although, if somebody claims exe tomorrow, what should we do? Should we lynch them, even if they may be a jester? Will that risk be better than simply nolynching?

There are a couple other roles that can comferm the exe both of witch are attacking roles... Vig and Who ever is attacking for the mafia
because the only other role that can show up as night immune is bodyguard and i presume that bg is going to take the better chance of killing a mafia member tonight rather that using his/her only vest...

[alouvre]

Vig can't shoot on night one, but it is a good idea to shoot an exe claimer, if we can afford to do so.