SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby dota2reporter » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:51 am

Qvapil wrote:Watchme shiro was the best waifu, don't let anyone tell you otherwise

so many people want to go to jail appareantly

i wouldve picked blackhole chan since i wanna be an astrophysicist lol
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby watchme1 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:06 am

Qvapil wrote:Watchme shiro was the best waifu, don't let anyone tell you otherwise


Literally why I chose Shiro as my waifu :)
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby TorqueRxF » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:30 am

Jalandh wrote:I dont want to be an ass but..youre proving why what i did isnt considered gamethrowing.

"Check with your teammate before you bus him"
+
"when you cant trust the other wolves"

You fully admit that i had no reason to trust evan and from my pov, his actions were telling me that his eincon wasnt mafias anymore so why would i ask if its ok to bus him?

Also where is it stated in the rules that permission is even required if i may ask?


Logs dont look like its out of suspicion of evans win con
Appeal with the mods. Doing it here doesnt do anything, when i dont even necessarily agree with the scale of the bl
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:38 am

TorqueRxF wrote:
Jalandh wrote:I dont want to be an ass but..youre proving why what i did isnt considered gamethrowing.

"Check with your teammate before you bus him"
+
"when you cant trust the other wolves"

You fully admit that i had no reason to trust evan and from my pov, his actions were telling me that his eincon wasnt mafias anymore so why would i ask if its ok to bus him?

Also where is it stated in the rules that permission is even required if i may ask?


Logs dont look like its out of suspicion of evans win con
Appeal with the mods. Doing it here doesnt do anything, when i dont even necessarily agree with the scale of the bl


ye i am just waiting on Alzer. Dw, the post i said isnt directed at you in any bad way and i apologize if thats what it seemed like
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:52 am

(this is why i shoudlnt post during break or right after work, i was aggravated and hot and now i feel bad if i made it seem like i had any anger towards you)
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby EvanManManMan » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:02 am

I didn't put my rolecard in wolf chat because I needed to teach people the lesson to send all wolf rolecards in the same PM, which is very much something that needs to be done especially in non-vanilla games
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:08 am

EvanManManMan wrote:I didn't put my rolecard in wolf chat because I needed to teach people the lesson to send all wolf rolecards in the same PM, which is very much something that needs to be done especially in non-vanilla games


my apologies then, it just came off as iffy when i didnt know if we still had the same wincon or not
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Rickdaily12 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 11:28 pm

Jalandh wrote:I dont want to be an ass but..youre proving why what i did isnt considered gamethrowing.

"Check with your teammate before you bus him"
+
"when you cant trust the other wolves"

You fully admit that i had no reason to trust evan and from my pov, his actions were telling me that his eincon wasnt mafias anymore so why would i ask if its ok to bus him?

Also where is it stated in the rules that permission is even required if i may ask?

Rule 404: Not Found.

So, let me get this straight. Bussing your teammate (and actually getting them lynched) is considered gamethrowing now? It constitutes a discussion about action being taken against you? And yet it's still so impossible just to get people to be nice and respectful to each other? Whenever anyone posts anything personal, insulting, and just straight up rude and uncalled for- it sometimes has to take Global Moderators getting involved just to finally see some of them removed from our games- but this? This is where we draw the line? Bussing and distancing your teammate is a thing. Not faltering on getting that teammate lynched to avoid looking like an obvious buddy is also a thing.

WINNING WITHOUT THAT DEAD TEAMMATE WHILE BEING ACCUSED OF GAMETHROWING. NOT A THING.

Getting Evan lynched wasn't part of Jal's loss conditions. It doesn't go against his win conditions. If he was playing against his win conditions, he wouldn't have won. QED. Also- if Jal literally has to ask what Evan's win conditions were at some point, in the same post-game discussion where you're accusing him of gamethrowing, I can't even make up this insanity. And even if Jal knew, for pure sake of argument- it's not required anywhere to ask your teammates if it's okay to bus/distance them. It's probably advised- but required? No.

People are allowed to be unpredictable in this game. People are allowed to make mistakes, or poor decisions. It causes the enemy team to let their guard down. If it also obviously results in an instant loss- sure, call it gamethrowing, but one look at this game and you can clearly tell that this wasn't what happened here.

I've seen blatant and delibrate actions taken by players that were clearly directly involved in that person's side losing- get ignored before. I watched as people explained those cases away by hypothetical or forgiven stupidity. Plain and simple- this wasn't what Jal did, and you can just look at his name in the living player list just to understand that. Getting salty about a poor decision is one thing. Asking for moderation on the grounds of gamethrowing is another. Completely outrageous.
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby TrueGent » Tue Aug 27, 2019 3:39 am

Rickdaily12 wrote:
Jalandh wrote:I dont want to be an ass but..youre proving why what i did isnt considered gamethrowing.

"Check with your teammate before you bus him"
+
"when you cant trust the other wolves"

You fully admit that i had no reason to trust evan and from my pov, his actions were telling me that his eincon wasnt mafias anymore so why would i ask if its ok to bus him?

Also where is it stated in the rules that permission is even required if i may ask?

Rule 404: Not Found.

So, let me get this straight. Bussing your teammate (and actually getting them lynched) is considered gamethrowing now? It constitutes a discussion about action being taken against you? And yet it's still so impossible just to get people to be nice and respectful to each other? Whenever anyone posts anything personal, insulting, and just straight up rude and uncalled for- it sometimes has to take Global Moderators getting involved just to finally see some of them removed from our games- but this? This is where we draw the line? Bussing and distancing your teammate is a thing. Not faltering on getting that teammate lynched to avoid looking like an obvious buddy is also a thing.

WINNING WITHOUT THAT DEAD TEAMMATE WHILE BEING ACCUSED OF GAMETHROWING. NOT A THING.

Getting Evan lynched wasn't part of Jal's loss conditions. It doesn't go against his win conditions. If he was playing against his win conditions, he wouldn't have won. QED. Also- if Jal literally has to ask what Evan's win conditions were at some point, in the same post-game discussion where you're accusing him of gamethrowing, I can't even make up this insanity. And even if Jal knew, for pure sake of argument- it's not required anywhere to ask your teammates if it's okay to bus/distance them. It's probably advised- but required? No.

People are allowed to be unpredictable in this game. People are allowed to make mistakes, or poor decisions. It causes the enemy team to let their guard down. If it also obviously results in an instant loss- sure, call it gamethrowing, but one look at this game and you can clearly tell that this wasn't what happened here.

I've seen blatant and delibrate actions taken by players that were clearly directly involved in that person's side losing- get ignored before. I watched as people explained those cases away by hypothetical or forgiven stupidity. Plain and simple- this wasn't what Jal did, and you can just look at his name in the living player list just to understand that. Getting salty about a poor decision is one thing. Asking for moderation on the grounds of gamethrowing is another. Completely outrageous.

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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Kmenx » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:25 am

Lessons of the day FM mods bad and host not sending all scum role cards or at least not posting them in the mafia chat in SFMs bad
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Google » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:45 am

load the shotgun, this will be included in the 2nd great google rant
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby ryanyb » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:19 am

FWIW this is still something that is an ongoing discussion among the FM mods.

Rick the argument you presented is undeniably correct. The issue is that the argument you presented isn't one that's remotely representative of what occurred this game.
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby ryanyb » Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:58 am

I'm nipping this at the bud here and now before it continues:

Without going into too too too much but still a decent amount of detail, the argument is thus:

there is a fairly substantial set of evidence that shows that Jalandh telling Eragon that he had a red check against his scum-mate was likely at least in substantial part due to Jalandh being pissed at Evan. Which would be game-throwing since you're killing a scum mate because you're pissed at them. We're not denying that killing a scum-member or bussing them can be a viable strategy. The issue here is that Jalandh didn't tell Evan. And he had eragon claim the cop check so that Evan wouldn't be angry since Jalandh didn't want to deal with it.

The place where it starts to break down is that it was theoretically possible for scum mates to not share a win condition. In that scenario, Jalandh's play is still absolutely stupid as fuck because the scum-mates would just bring each other down together and end the game right then and there if they didn't share a wincon. Evan would just spite Jalandh and out him and the game would end. So Jalandh's play remains incorrect. But that doesn't matter, what does matter is that there was theoretically a world where scum didn't share a win condition in which Jalandh's play was justified. It was ridiculously unlikely given the evidence presented in the game up to that point including Torque physically posting Evan's role-card in mafia chat (which included a mafia win condition). So the question being posed is the question of whether the kill made against Evan actually was motivated by trying to test for fake scum, or if that was just an excuse to get evan out of the game. In both cases it's hard to say and it's not necessarily our place to be speculating about what someone might have been thinking at any given moment in time since we can't know. We can only go off the evidence that we see in logs and the time stamps at which they occurred. It was nearly unanimous among the spectators and moderators that a myriad of play this game was problematic from various players.

It has been difficult to come to a conclusion on this issue because the topic of role-conversion muddies the water.

Additionally, the argument that one cannot game throw and win the game at the same time is flawed (ESPECIALLY IN A BASTARD GAME) given there is a set of rules and expectations that players expect other players to hold to that are enforced by Moderators and BMG Staff. Jalandh killing evan wasn't something that was considered by any living player because the argument against it was "Evan wouldn't consent to this" which was correct. Living players expected that Jalandh killing Evan without consent would be a breach of the rules, and thus wasn't considered at end-game. Thus, because of said play, it was literally impossible for Jalandh to be scum since he would have had to have outed his teammate without their consent. Once again the thing here muddying the water is the possibility of role conversion. In a vaccum Jalandh's play was absolutely incorrect and should be punished for gamethrowing. The ONLY thing that's holding it up is the conversion.

TL;DR
This is NOT 'he bussed his teamate we're blacklisting him'. It's a lot more complex than that and the crux of the issue is not the act of bussing which was never even brought up in the mod's discussion. It's if there was sufficient suspicion for Jalandh to actually kill Evan without Evan's consent in the context of the evidence we have.
Those of you essentializing this issue to be a bussing issue clearly don't know the actual details of this case. While it can be fun to rant I would appreciate it if you put in the work to research an issue before trying to rally a 'completely outrageous' mob and picking up pitchforks.

Additionally as a reminder, if you see something that you believe to be gamethrowing, PLEASE REPORT IT TO US SO WE CAN SEE IT SINCE WE DON'T SEE EVERYTHING. Spam us PM us give us an argument if you feel like you need to, LET US KNOW IF BAD SHIT IS HAPPENING SO WE CAN DEAL WITH IT.

The real lesson of the day @kmenx, is that conversion fucking sucks.


I'm leaving this thread open. If you wish to continue discussion about this particular issue feel free to DM me about it and we can talk in PM. I won't be removing posts or asking you not to discuss the above information in the thread but we would appreciate it if we kept the remaining conversation here limited to the other aspects of this game. Let's just please make sure it doesn't devolve into any hate echo chamber against anyone please.
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:52 pm

For those that know me, am I the one to be spiteful?

I had eragon claim it because I knew Evan would be mad. But I also didnt know if Evan was my teammate.

your point about the host posting the rc would be valid however, I got my rolecard before the conversion happened as well and that rolecard could have been the one was given before he was converted.

You want evidence to why i suspected Evan? Here.

How hard did Evan pushed me hard day 1? Out of everyone in the game, why me in the out of the two masons?

It was even to the point that he pushed me for having a triple voting mechanic.

on top of this, Evan refused to post his rolecard which made me believe there was something he didnt want me to see on it. he used the excuse in mafia chat "EvanManManMan08/10/2019
It's funnier if I keep it a secret"

Like what the hell lol im trying to win this and thats what I get?

I would have told you all this and gave my thoughts on it at the moment instead of trying to remember days after if only someone had asked. But noone did. Noone bothered to see what I was thinking when I did it, instead delivering a ban and replacing me out of everything.

"Living players expected that Jalandh killing Evan without consent would be a breach of the rules, and thus wasn't considered at end-game."

Ok but where is the ruling that I couldnt do that? I checked the rules and even got the hosts permission. Yes they assumed that I would ask Evan but that is my mistake for not clarrifying enough.

Image

When I asked that from Torque, Evan had still not even hinted at what their role was. And the day had already ended and I was trying to make night plans.

If Torque hadnt sent rolecards, do you realize that it woulda ment Evan woulda been doing his role in secret without informing us? How am I supposed to think of that as anything other then "Gonna betray you"

Cause of that, I was talking to the hood and was getting ready to out a red check on evan and then carry it to victory. Which I did.

Ryan, you said it yourself, in the f3 (taking out Eragon), you would have HEAVILY townread S0me0ne for being in their town game. The only reason you werent is because of what I did. Me bussing evan there literally gave mafia the win.

If you think i would throw the game, why would i put in all the effort i did to try to be townread? The effort i put in for the mafia discord server?

Every channel other then Role cards and General, I made. I was the one that was collecting the claims and such. Why would I throw a game I was clearly trying to win with the amount of effort I was putting in
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 12:58 pm

"This is NOT 'he bussed his teamate we're blacklisting him'. It's a lot more complex than that and the crux of the issue is not the act of bussing which was never even brought up in the mod's discussion. It's if there was sufficient suspicion for Jalandh to actually kill Evan without Evan's consent in the context of the evidence we have.
Those of you essentializing this issue to be a bussing issue clearly don't know the actual details of this case. While it can be fun to rant I would appreciate it if you put in the work to research an issue before trying to rally a 'completely outrageous' mob and picking up pitchforks."

Heres the issue with this, I was the one blacklisted and even I didnt know this because noone said anything. Not even in the message I got from Var, it was simply stated that I gamethrew maliciously and I was blacklisted, if i had an issue, go put it up with Met.
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:05 pm

Final thoughts: Im not even that worried about the appeal anymore. The damage has already been done and its not damage that unblacklisting can undo.

to further this, do I have to be worried now that anything I do will be met with such harsh judgement?

Even with all that aside, ive gotten plenty of comments regarding how much im not wanted here anymore as well, from people saying they will never join a game with me again, to those saying I would be wotc out of games. Those are just the ones speaking up as well, im sure others have their own opinions about me now that they havent shared. Even if i get unblacklisted, how much would I actually be able to play?

I get that the game turned stressful. Thats why I said people are more then welcome to come to my dm and vent if needed. But noone did. Its a shame that a game ruined friendships but Im not sure what to do at this point regarding that. I was flamed for ruining others fun, which was not my intention nor something I thought I did. But I apologize to Evan for having him lynched, to Var and Elusive for having you killed n1 and to anyone else that i ruined the fun of on accident.
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby TrueGent » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:12 pm

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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby TrueGent » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:14 pm

For what its worth, I doubt the kind of people that would literally not join games with you over this are the kind of people you would want to play with anyway
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:15 pm

TrueGent wrote:Image


Attacking is not the same as bussing however. Example, you dont need consent from the moderator to bus a teammate(normally) and in this case, I even got permission from the moderator (granted with a misunderstanding)

This is also ignoring the fact that Evan could have had a different wincon then the one we started with
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:15 pm

TrueGent wrote:For what its worth, I doubt the kind of people that would literally not join games with you over this are the kind of people you would want to play with anyway


eh, I considered S0me0ne to be a cool person and I enjoyed past games with them so
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby TrueGent » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:16 pm

Jalandh wrote:
TrueGent wrote:Image


Attacking is not the same as bussing however. Example, you dont need consent from the moderator to bus a teammate(normally) and in this case, I even got permission from the moderator (granted with a misunderstanding)

This is also ignoring the fact that Evan could have had a different wincon then the one we started with

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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:20 pm

Also where is that located at?
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Even when it looks like you'll lose...
When no one else in the world believes in you...
When you don't even believe in yourself...
I will believe in you!
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Varanus » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:21 pm

The ECO, oddly enough
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Jalandh » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:24 pm

Varanus wrote:The ECO, oddly enough


Then if it is to be enforced, it should be added to the actual rules and made to specify both attacking and bussing no?
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Re: SFM62 | Your Waifu is Trash Upick | Bad Waifus win

Postby Phone0Ix » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:40 pm

TrueGent wrote:For what its worth, I doubt the kind of people that would literally not join games with you over this are the kind of people you would want to play with anyway

And I doubt this is correct in any way

And Attacking =/= bussing
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