Player Pronouns

[StrahmDude]

>.>
my point is there is nothing wrong with the skin based gender assignment, and changing it would be pointless and not worth the time.
(the fact is that it would actually take a lot longer to change than one would think)

also seriously, I literally just disagree with you all and you guys are treating me like I am writing page long rants about you guys being neo-nazies. Chill.

+1 there are a lot of other things that need slight improvements, I mean even if it got to the list, it wouldnt be at the top. Why not just make it so you can choose which skins you want to use when you click ''random''. dont wanna be called he? choose female skins...

I have to agree with this. There are so, so, SOOO many other things the devs need to address and look at once Unity is done that players have been demanding for years. And the idea of being able to select what skins you want to be randomized has been selected countless times and would easily solve this issue, while also making everyone else who gets free skins from the Cauldron that they don't want to use, but like to randomize, happy.

I also feel like people need to be reminded to respect the opinions of other players and not to taking things too personally here. If people don't agree with you, that's fine. There is no need to get ultra defensive over it. We don't need pointless drama on these forums.

So I also agree that I'd like the ability to select which townie skins I'd want to "random", (definitely don't like some of the townie skins I currently have as a result of the cauldron lol), but I disagree that this somehow solves the solution. Again, remember how I noticed the issue to begin with after using the Beezlebub skin.

Maybe the issue here is that pronouns matter to some people more than others, but to those of us that do care about them this issue bothers us quite a bit. Some of the arguments made against fixing the problem were nonsensical ('[doing this] adds nothing while bringing in an entire issue of gender indentity"? like wtf... ), and while I understand that many have other things they want to see changed more, (like making the userbase of ToS less toxic, having the game crash less often, etc), what we're proposing here is a really minor tweak in the code that would make some of us a lot happier.

Again, this would be a pretty simple change to make if the tags that trigger what pronouns the game uses are just associated with skins like I'm guessing is the case. I've also proposed just changing the code so that in the few instances the game does refer to the user with gendered pronouns, (ie deaths), it just uses gender neutral (they/them) pronouns instead. There was never really a need for the game to use this weird 'assigning gender based on skin' system to begin with and it's pretty dumb in my opinion.

Exept it wouldn't be a minor tweak. Like I said, it would probably take like 30 minutes (and that is being VERY generous assuming they made their code mythically modular). Realistically it would probably take at least 6+ hours to add. Not joking here btw. You do have to consider the fact that you they would need to make this setting get saved which makes the takes vastly more complex (and no I am not saying they will have to add saving, I am saying they will have to add it to the current settings, not to mention modularity possibly making it hard to reference these settings during the game). Also dismissing counter-arguments doesn't make them go away. Is there just going to be he and she? Are you going to include they/them for people who identify as something else? Will they be okay with only getting that? Like you said there will probably be at most a couple of days of outrage when someone demands they add their own gender identity. If it is really a big deal, I would rather they just switched it to they/them and move on, would be easier and actually take little to no time.

[Rivelle]

I don't think this is necessary... it's just a game. I don't mind if someone calls me a pronoun that does not match me. However I also don't mind this being added.

[woahah]

i think yall care way too much about whether it says "he/she/they/???" on a thing that comes up for a split second every so often, but uh i don't really see much reason against this because it literally just gives you more freedom of choice which isn't a bad thing, like if you wanna be Candy the Escort skin and bamboozle everyone when your flip reads "He was killed by Mafia" revealing that you are in fact a trap, go ahead

99.9% of the community isn't going to care about "the issue of gender identity" surrounding the change for more than like a few days, most players probably won't even know it was added lul

this post is like proving why it should be added and not be added to everyone at the same time

but yes trap escort awareness day

[StrahmDude]

I will admit a trap escort/consort would be funny

[yummyporkchops]

There is a reason I am choosing to confront you on this. It's because your suggestion is 100% politically motivated.

There was never really a need for the game to use this weird 'assigning gender based on skin' system to begin with and it's pretty dumb in my opinion.

...the whole gendered pronouns being associated with specific townie skins was pretty dumb to begin with.

As a default, gender neutral (they/them) pronouns could be used.

...ToS already assigns players gender pronouns based on the townie skin they use, and therefore are already assigning genders to players.

If you're choosing to identify with the skin you play as and literally merge yourself with that character, then it's simply matter of you having an identity crisis. ToS isn't assigning anyone anything. The skins are simply what they are: either male, or female. Similarly, humans are either male, or female. Your attempt to destroy traditional pronouns does not change this.

You literally have no other reason to make this suggestion this other than to enforce political correctness. You reek of it.



Here is the quote of the first individual who called you out.

/no support
this is a big bag of social issues and drama that I think this game should just stay away from. You are then going to get into the issue of gender identity and that isn't going to be fun for literally anyone involved.

Here you have incompetent people who either refuse to or cannot grasp the situation.

how would that happen? I am sorry but this stuff also bothers me but this is just smart.

/support

can you two tell me what the problem is for picking pronouns? Saying that adding gender options will start drama is stupid.

Why the fuck are you so salty? Also how the fuck does it bring the issue of gender identity.

And lastly, you have those who think too little about the situation, almost as if they're afraid to break their impartiality.

/Support simple, but not really that useful or worth it but idc

i think yall care way too much about whether it says "he/she/they/???" on a thing that comes up for a split second every so often, but uh i don't really see much reason against this because it literally just gives you more freedom of choice which isn't a bad thing

I don't think this is necessary... it's just a game. I don't mind if someone calls me a pronoun that does not match me. However I also don't mind this being added.

It's this passivity why society is in a constant downward spiral. It's the majority of the population that sits there quietly, blinded by their apathy.

(I find that pointless tbh. You're playing as the skin you are, you're roleplaying, therefor, you're either male or female. Does it matter if it calls you what you want it to?)

The thing is, there is a point to everything, especially to such absurd suggestion as this one. The OP's intentions couldn't have been any clearer. It doesn't take a deep analysis to see how ridiculously political the suggestion is. You don't even have to dig or read between the lines--it's right in front of our faces. Become more aware of your surroundings.



That is why I do not support this suggestion.

Keep your political bullshit out of ToS.

/no support

[eezstreet]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

it's not really that important imo, not as much as other serious issues (forger being useless, ret being OP, etc) so it's pretty low on the totem pole I think but it'd be kinda neat to see

my one question for OP: Which gender is "cdc health alert"?

[StrahmDude]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

[woahah]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

unity

[yummyporkchops]

LOL

it's a basically useless change to an online flash game, why are you trying to make it into some deep sociological thing

again, many of you care way too much, thanks for proving my point

My issue with OP's suggestion is that it does nothing but encourage political correctness, something we really don't need in ToS. Perhaps that key point slipped your mind, which is why you failed to address any of that in your response--maybe because you don't actually have a point to make.

"i think yall care way too much about..."
"99.9% of the community isn't going to care about..."
"...a basically useless change..."
"again, many of you care way too much..."

Those are words coming from you. It's blaringly obvious where you stand in all of this, which is why I included that quote from you in my original response. However, I'd like to really emphasize this point: It's not that people care way too much; it's simply your lack of conviction.

It's because of that why you "don't really see much reason against this because it literally just gives you more freedom of choice which isn't a bad thing," regardless of the political implications.

It's not just you. Quite a lot of the responses have been of that very same nature, people supporting the suggestion even though they personally find it unnecessary. That's when I asked myself why so many people are in support of something that's totally unneeded and pointless, and then I made the same comparison for today's society. The consequences you see now are due to people's apathy.

Not to mock your last sentence or anything, but you perfectly proved my point. The only difference is I won't thank you for it.

[woahah]

LOL

it's a basically useless change to an online flash game, why are you trying to make it into some deep sociological thing

again, many of you care way too much, thanks for proving my point

My issue with OP's suggestion is that it does nothing but encourage political correctness, something we really don't need in ToS. Perhaps that key point slipped your mind, which is why you failed to address any of that in your response--maybe because you don't actually have a point to make.

"i think yall care way too much about..."
"99.9% of the community isn't going to care about..."
"...a basically useless change..."
"again, many of you care way too much..."

Those are words coming from you. It's blaringly obvious where you stand in all of this, which is why I included that quote from you in my original response. However, I'd like to really emphasize this point: It's not that people care way too much; it's simply your lack of conviction.

It's because of that why you "don't really see much reason against this because it literally just gives you more freedom of choice which isn't a bad thing," regardless of the political implications.

It's not just you. Quite a lot of the responses have been of that very same nature, people supporting the suggestion even though they personally find it unnecessary. That's when I asked myself why so many people are in support of something that's totally unneeded and pointless, and then I made the same comparison for today's society. The consequences you see now are due to people's apathy.

Not to mock your last sentence or anything, but you perfectly proved my point. The only difference is I won't thank you for it.

People just want to pick their gender pronouns in the game, come on.

[eezstreet]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

i mean, it's a unity game, it already comes with Dropdown and layout widgets built-in for this sort of thing, how hard can it be?
btw, i am a game dev and my specialty is in UI, perhaps you should not "mansplain" stuff to me

[StrahmDude]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

i mean, it's a unity game, it already comes with Dropdown and layout widgets built-in for this sort of thing, how hard can it be?
btw, i am a game dev and my specialty is in UI, perhaps you should not "mansplain" stuff to me

Ah yes, because games are programmed with UI elements only. Mega Oof.

[woahah]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

i mean, it's a unity game, it already comes with Dropdown and layout widgets built-in for this sort of thing, how hard can it be?
btw, i am a game dev and my specialty is in UI, perhaps you should not "mansplain" stuff to me

oh fuck they said mansplain
ew
get out

[eezstreet]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

i mean, it's a unity game, it already comes with Dropdown and layout widgets built-in for this sort of thing, how hard can it be?
btw, i am a game dev and my specialty is in UI, perhaps you should not "mansplain" stuff to me

Ah yes, because games are programmed with UI elements only. Mega Oof.

we're talking about adding an option to the menus for player pronouns
this would fall under UI (user interface).
Mega Oof

anyway, I don't think it would take them that long to do but I don't know how their system is set up

oh fuck they said mansplain
ew
get out

valid criticism

[Yemac]

/no support

1. There are more important things to focus on than small changes that only effect 1% of the player base that follows this ideology
2. It doesn't improve the game at all.
3. Online your gender doesn't matter. In fact, I think it's mighty annoying when people swear by it. You're just a player. Gender, age, sexuality and all that doesn't matter.

This is my personal opinion but I don't care at all when people use the wrong pronouns when addressing me. You do not know that person, all they are is a player. So personally, I can't feel offended for things that others do not know about me, I would find myself childish if I would blame them.

[StrahmDude]

man, imagine getting this worked up over the darned es jay doubleyous and their agenda to have the option to pick your gender in a text based game

Gender pronoun is already based on which ingame skin you have so I can't imagine it being too difficult to add, just change it from being based on player skin to another option

As a programmer, that can be dramatically harder than you think it is, and based on there set up it is. The would have to rework their layout to fit it, they have to add the options and the art, they have to store this information, they have to have the game pull this information. These do sound easier than they are, and it all depends on how modular they made their display, which doesn't seem very modular tbh. It would probably take 6+ hours to add everything + art time for the settings.

i mean, it's a unity game, it already comes with Dropdown and layout widgets built-in for this sort of thing, how hard can it be?
btw, i am a game dev and my specialty is in UI, perhaps you should not "mansplain" stuff to me

Ah yes, because games are programmed with UI elements only. Mega Oof.

we're talking about adding an option to the menus for player pronouns
this would fall under UI (user interface).
Mega Oof

anyway, I don't think it would take them that long to do but I don't know how their system is set up

Ah yes, when programming a game you ONLY have to add UI elements. There is no back end programming where you actually hook up the option to a settings file or database. There is nowhere where you have to set up calling it to get the information. Stop talking like you know stuff when you have clearly indicated you have no idea what you are talking about.

TLDR: Waste of time, and would take longer than 30 minutes to set up.

[eezstreet]

Ah yes, when programming a game you ONLY have to add UI elements. There is no back end programming where you actually hook up the option to a settings file or database. There is nowhere where you have to set up calling it to get the information. Stop talking like you know stuff when you have clearly indicated you have no idea what you are talking about.

TLDR: Waste of time, and would take longer than 30 minutes to set up.

please calm down

[woahah]

Ah yes, when programming a game you ONLY have to add UI elements. There is no back end programming where you actually hook up the option to a settings file or database. There is nowhere where you have to set up calling it to get the information. Stop talking like you know stuff when you have clearly indicated you have no idea what you are talking about.

TLDR: Waste of time, and would take longer than 30 minutes to set up.

please calm down

im on pro-pronouns but you're the one who used mansplain so this is on you

[eezstreet]

im on pro-pronouns but you're the one who used mansplain so this is on you

fuck

[Villagerlover]

Yeah why not.
It's just another fun aesthetic to mess around with, and I like changing up my interface often to keep ToS fresh. I'm sure there are plenty of others who do the same thing.

Anyone who thinks it's anything more than simple aesthetics is absurd.


/support

[kyuss420]

wow this thread still going? and they said it wouldnt cause any drama...

[emslaya]

wow this thread still going? and they said it wouldnt cause any drama...

I know. The sad thing is that this suggestion really shouldn't even be that controversial? It's just proposing that we be able to select whether the game refers to us as he/she/they/etc or having the game only use gender neutral terms when referring to a player in-game. It's really not that big of a deal and idk why some people seem to be incredibly against the proposal. It's just pretty disappointing imo.

Yeah why not.
It's just another fun aesthetic to mess around with, and I like changing up my interface often to keep ToS fresh. I'm sure there are plenty of others who do the same thing.

Anyone who thinks it's anything more than simple aesthetics is absurd.


/support

"Anyone who thinks it's anything more than simple aesthetics is absurd."


This this this ^^^^^
It's just a simple aesthetics change that a lot of us would appreciate to see happen. Please don't overthink this.



(Sidenote: It's 100% possible and okay to support this and still want other changes more. Supporting this/being okay with this proposed change happening does not mean the other stuff you want to see changed won't happen as well.)

[DaMuffin]

Good idea

[Brilliand]

I think most people don't pay attention to the pronouns used.

Whether the game said "he" or "she" is forgettable, but I wouldn't want to see someone picking "gluepot" as their pronoun.

Letting players pick any pronouns besides the bog-standard "he", "she", and maybe "they" and "it" is asking for trouble. I don't mean trouble from actual transsexuals, I mean trouble from screwballs who want to make the start-of-day announcements confusing to read.

What I would be in favor of is having the game show players at the name selection screen which skin they'll be using, so that the players with their skin set to "random" can tell what the character they're naming will look like.

Also, it wouldn't hurt for BMG to add one or two skins with nonbinary pronouns, in a controlled fashion.

----

I seem to have completely skipped over the question of whether players should be allowed to pick a pronoun that doesn't match their skin. So, on that topic... I don't see the point. It wouldn't be very bad for that to be available, but I think it would annoy me if I noticed it at all, and I think it's the wrong solution to the problem it's trying to solve. (See above for what I think the right solution is.)

[Villagerlover]

I seem to have completely skipped over the question of whether players should be allowed to pick a pronoun that doesn't match their skin. So, on that topic... I don't see the point. It wouldn't be very bad for that to be available, but I think it would annoy me if I noticed it at all, and I think it's the wrong solution to the problem it's trying to solve. (See above for what I think the right solution is.)

I agree that it's totally not okay to have the pronoun completely customizable cause I don't want to see a reportable/offensive name/slur get killed by mafia. It's stupid. It just allows more exploitation.

However, it's fine to have a set amount of pronouns completely customizable as long as they're limited within that range.

But look man. If it annoys you that I want to give a male skin a "she" pronoun in my game for the hell of it, then that's your problem. There is a certain freedom regarding aesthetics that would be fun for a lot of people. Myself included.
There are no "problems" to solve at all, it is simply more aesthetics to have fun with.