Different roles in Dracs Palace

[KingSamantha]

Im unsure if this belongs here. But i'll post anyway.
I feel like there isnt much claim space in Dracs Palace. Most of the roles can be confirmed easily. Its also kinda hard to kill the VH. I do feel as thought Veteran would be a better role than Vig. Maybe random towns would be better than TP and TS slots. The poor Witch is kinda fecked in this mode lol.

[kyuss420]

RT slots would suck, what is a sheriff supposed to do? Having a vet would make 2 targets the vampires have to be wary of visiting, and if he kills off multiple townies, then theres even less claim space..
The role list is as balanced as it could be IMO, I mean, Ive even won as solo witch twice The biggest problem Ive found is vamps dont vote important roles when they get majority with the witch, and even throw the witch under the bus instead. I mean if jester is alive, once theres 11 players left you should be able to vote the VH or jailor, with a full team of vamps. Witch should be on VH or jailor, why would vamps vote them?

[RedHeadStepChild]

RT slots would suck, what is a sheriff supposed to do? Having a vet would make 2 targets the vampires have to be wary of visiting, and if he kills off multiple townies, then theres even less claim space..
The role list is as balanced as it could be IMO, I mean, Ive even won as solo witch twice The biggest problem Ive found is vamps dont vote important roles when they get majority with the witch, and even throw the witch under the bus instead. I mean if jester is alive, once theres 11 players left you should be able to vote the VH or jailor, with a full team of vamps. Witch should be on VH or jailor, why would vamps vote them?

I can answer this, because a lot of the time, the Vamps think the witch is retarted, so they vote the witch up or try to bite them, or the witch thinks the vamps are retarted so he controls the vamps into the VH, or uses the vh or vig to kill the vamps, , or the vamps cannot decide on one single target to bite.

I have been in several games where I've seen all that and more happen. If I had a nickle for every time I saw a vamp's or witch's will saying how stupid the other is being, I wouldnt need a job.

[Transcender]

RT slots would suck, what is a sheriff supposed to do? Having a vet would make 2 targets the vampires have to be wary of visiting, and if he kills off multiple townies, then theres even less claim space..
The role list is as balanced as it could be IMO, I mean, Ive even won as solo witch twice The biggest problem Ive found is vamps dont vote important roles when they get majority with the witch, and even throw the witch under the bus instead. I mean if jester is alive, once theres 11 players left you should be able to vote the VH or jailor, with a full team of vamps. Witch should be on VH or jailor, why would vamps vote them?

ive never seen a town win in dracula's palace

[ProjectSuperBoy]

I completely agree with this. In my experience, town's WR is massively high in this mode. Vamps will win 1, 2 if they are lucky, out of 10 matches. This relies heavily on their ability to eliminate Jailor n1, which is already difficult enough. Their best chance at killing VH before having majority is Jester kill, sure Witch could use Vig to kill them but Witch has to find and use a bullet with Vig first.

Although, the usual town stupidity also contributes to Vamp win, so perhaps it balances out.

[kyuss420]

I completely agree with this. In my experience, town's WR is massively high in this mode. Vamps will win 1, 2 if they are lucky, out of 10 matches. This relies heavily on their ability to eliminate Jailor n1, which is already difficult enough. Their best chance at killing VH before having majority is Jester kill, sure Witch could use Vig to kill them but Witch has to find and use a bullet with Vig first.

Although, the usual town stupidity also contributes to Vamp win, so perhaps it balances out.

not really, it depends on how smart the witch is, and how smart the VH is. I mean if they are both just hitting randos instead of listening to claims. Just like any mode, kill order is the most important aspect for the evils. If vamps want help to win, they need to get rid of LOs so witch can do their job, which is basically keeping the VH away from the vamps. With witch on the VH, only the jailor remains a problem, and that is only if he jails the youngest.

I guess town has a lot of kill potential, with BG, vigi, jailor and VH, but if you eliminate LOs, witch can nullify the VH, wait for vigi to claim, then send him to VH and sit on the jailor. If witch isnt on a known VH, then theyre gonna lose

[ProjectSuperBoy]

Yeah, really. The game really does not take that much intelligence at all, you are way overestimating it. I know, I already stated that, I don't think you actually read what I wrote. Vampires have no idea who the lookouts are and no way of knowing unless they directly reveal, any whispering is immediately called out as sus anyway. You have described an extremely specific scenario like it happens all the time, as I said, that happens in about 1 out of 10 matches.

Most Vig's are aware of that and purposefully do not out themselves unless a terrible town makes them. They will lose most of the time anyway, Witch is usually found rather quickly, whether with Lookouts' help or not, or people just random lynch the Witch.

[Sylek]

Nobody has any solid idea of who anyone is except with controlling targets and the vamps until claims are made. Jailors get a claim from someone they jail, the LO get claims from people they see visit. VH stakes vampires they visit, otherwise town, jester, or witch.
Town is guaranteed to have vig, vh, and jailor for killing with possible BG. The Vig and BG are a double edged sword for town. If vig shoots town, that's two down. BG can kill the VH if they both visit a vampire (usually reveals the vampire too).
You say it takes doesn't take much intelligence, but you also can't just go in and not think. Jailor and escorts that get youngest can be a big threat to vamps, but not if that jailor decides to exe youngest (which does happen). Random lynch should never be a strategy and if that's happening, I don't blame you for your opinion.
If anything, I'd suggest making the TS more static between mayor, escort, trans, and maybe ret. Mediums are impossible to confirm unless 2nd TS is medium or Ret, and they generally don't contribute that much. Ret is very useful if jailor dies early, or VH dies to town stupidity, but towns also get converted to vamp, limiting them.
Beyond that, it's just playing with strategy to trick people.

[kyuss420]

Yeah, really. The game really does not take that much intelligence at all, you are way overestimating it. I know, I already stated that, I don't think you actually read what I wrote. Vampires have no idea who the lookouts are and no way of knowing unless they directly reveal, any whispering is immediately called out as sus anyway. You have described an extremely specific scenario like it happens all the time, as I said, that happens in about 1 out of 10 matches.

Most Vig's are aware of that and purposefully do not out themselves unless a terrible town makes them. They will lose most of the time anyway, Witch is usually found rather quickly, whether with Lookouts' help or not, or people just random lynch the Witch.

Except you forget 1 thing, Vamps know who the vamps are, so thats 4 roles they know off the bat, usually day 2 theres a kill and 1 or 2 role claims, so thats 5-7 known roles, day 3 jester has usually tried something dumb and is obvious, maybe another dead townie and maybe another role claim from someone who was pushed on.(7-9 known roles) If vamps are pushed on, they can claim LO then target any counter claims. The counter claims should also give you info on what the remaining non claiming townies are. If witch is paying attention to claims (granted they usually arent) they should have some idea that non claiming person X has to be either jailor/vig/VH (usually the guy who hit inno on a sus claim - in case of jester)

I dont think the above scenario is that specific, claims are made everygame, important town roles inno all the time, if youre getting hung, you may as well claim priority targets to get the ccs to give your team a fighting chance (ok, this doesnt happen very often XD ) Town has no reason to lie, so most claims arent false

[ProjectSuperBoy]

No, I didn't forget anything. You are making a lot of generalities that definitely do not always happen. Jester is not usually blatantly obvious because that is really bad jester play and rarely, if ever, results in a jester victory. Also, all of this stuff is conjecture, somebody saying one thing does not make them a "known role". Except if a Lookout is already dead, and a counterclaim would almost definitely cost them at least one vampire. Again, that would be conjecture, helpful if you are right, but there is no guarantee you are. Witch does not really need to pay attention to claims since they are given exact roles.

Town has every reason to lie for this exact reason. Nobody wants to become the Vampires next target. This is why forcing people to claim early on is extremely risky, but usually not detrimental to town because they have enough people to spare. This is not even mentioning the fact that the youngest Vampire merely needs to be repeatedly Jailed and/or roleblocked to make the Vampires completely ineffective.

[kyuss420]

Town dont lie, no doc is claiming LO and no LO is claiming doc, no one is going to believe they are town if theyre caught in a lie and will usually result in a bunch of gamethrowing reports. LOs will claim because TP will be on them, and if youre going to be lynched as a vampire anyway, you may as well try to get a cc from your no.1 targets that are unknown.

As for witch, it takes time to be given exact roles, usually time that the witch doesnt have, so paying attention to claims is very important if they want to target the right people and put themselves in a winning position.

As for someone making a claim, to town it doesnt make them a known role, but vamps know who the vamps are, so only witch or jester would be lieing. Its a role list game where town relies on Process Of Elimination to lynch and evils rely on deception, so you cant play as vamp in the same way you play as town, and you cant play as town in the same way you play as vamp

[Sylek]

Town has every reason to lie for this exact reason. Nobody wants to become the Vampires next target. This is why forcing people to claim early on is extremely risky, but usually not detrimental to town because they have enough people to spare. This is not even mentioning the fact that the youngest Vampire merely needs to be repeatedly Jailed and/or roleblocked to make the Vampires completely ineffective.

As mentioned, town that gets caught lying will likely get hit with a gamethrow report because they are deceiving the town that needs to find the vampires that know each other. Calling for roles early only helps witch and should be done when there's an actual lead. Vampires can then try the counter claims to find other important targets and witch can see which of those are vampires when controlling them. If youngest vampire is repeatedly jailed, witch can potentially use jailor to execute them (allowing vamps to act, but risks witch) or youngest vampire can leave the game so their team can act next night (one of the few times I accept leaving). Either way, vampires are down one, but they can convert a town.
The converts are one of the biggest advantages vampires can get over town as anyone other than VH and witch can be turned. While they'll likely have to reconfirm themselves later, it's time for vampires to act.

[ProjectSuperBoy]

I would not say that. It is extremely rare these days to see anyone intentionally gamethrowing, anyone who knee-jerk reports that will only have it bounced back on them if anything. TPs will be on the Jailor or Mayor, not the Lookouts. The youngest vampire leaving is not really a viable strategy at all.

[Soulshade55r]

A great change would be things like protection preventing conversion, Sheriff being able to find Vampires that aren't youngest.

Also make Vh unique and not see vamp chat.

Generally changes to vampires won't be made Draculas palace role list sucks

[Sylek]

A great change would be things like protection preventing conversion, Sheriff being able to find Vampires that aren't youngest.

Also make Vh unique and not see vamp chat.

Generally changes to vampires won't be made Draculas palace role list sucks

Since we're exclusively talking about Drac Palace in this thread, the VH is essentially unique. There is only one VH per game with how the role list is set up, never two. Currently the only real distinction between youngest and other vampires is that the youngest is the one who visits.

I would not say that. It is extremely rare these days to see anyone intentionally gamethrowing, anyone who knee-jerk reports that will only have it bounced back on them if anything. TPs will be on the Jailor or Mayor, not the Lookouts. The youngest vampire leaving is not really a viable strategy at all.

I'm not trying to call youngest leaving a viable strategy. The only reason I'm remotely ok with youngest leaving is when jailor/escort is repeatedly blocking them so the vamps cannot kill or convert while town picks them off one at a time. When youngest leaves, a new youngest will be chosen from remaining vampires giving them at least a chance without relying on witch to find jailor, when it's very possible for an LO to be on them to discourage witch.
If vampires had something more along the lines of mafioso/gf targetting, where GF visits if mafioso is blocked, youngest wouldn't have to leave.

Regardless, the topic discusses changes the role list, not the roles themselves.