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Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils win.
Posted:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:44 pmby Atalanta8
I f***ing kill BG and vig in one go. Prevent Jailor from killing evil. Then evils vote me for shits and giggles and that evil I saved from exe wins the game and I lose cause some people are jerks. This is BS!!!!
Please make witch win with evils even if she dead cause people are assholes.
Thank you.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 6:51 pmby Shyyster
So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 7:23 pmby shapesifter13
If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:06 pmby Atalanta8
Flake wrote:The most unfair aspect about Witch is having no incentive to not out information they have collected (often helping the Town massively, usually by outing evil players) once dead. While allowing the Witch to win with evils while dead seems like a logical option which remedies many unfair instances (including the main one which I previously stated), it should be noted that many new unfair elements would arise, including all examples similar to what Shyyster gave.
The most simple change to Witch which is objectively effective in decreasing unfair elements involved in my opinion would be to have the Witch's last will not flip upon death. This means that the main form of communication from the now dead Witch and the public has disappeared, and thus the information they have gained cannot be communicated to the public through Last Wills. There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out. There are other more situational instances in which the Witch could convey their information to the public when dead, including through an alive Medium, through a dead Medium via seance, or through a resurrected player, though these seem more tricky to fix without detrimental effects in other aspects.
The game needs a notepad and a will. That would solve the will issue. And I don't see that issue in high ELO. The biggest issue I see is the one I described. People just being dicks cause they can (it won't effect their own win). I see it happen and clearly it happens to me too. It's not an isolated incident.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:09 pmby Atalanta8
Shyyster wrote:So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.
Evils now at a great disadvantage and witch needs to waste 20 mins of her time to not lose -15 elo so yeah why not? What's the big deal? Better give wins to witches who die D2 than have witches that try and cinch the win for evils just to be voted off by said evils just cause it won't effect them and they are assholes.
Wouldn't the positive outweigh the negative?
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:12 pmby Atalanta8
shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.
I most definitely don't win 50% with witch.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:27 amby Mikemk
Atalanta8 wrote:shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.
I most definitely don't win 50% with witch.
I win, by my estimation, about 85% of games I play as Witch, definitely the easiest role by a long shot IMO. I'm shocked that the average is only 50%. Guess it depends on the player.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:18 pmby Atalanta8
Mikemk wrote:Atalanta8 wrote:shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.
I most definitely don't win 50% with witch.
I win, by my estimation, about 85% of games I play as Witch, definitely the easiest role by a long shot IMO. I'm shocked that the average is only 50%. Guess it depends on the player.
Maf tends to target me N1 as NE for some reason I die D2 often.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 6:22 pmby Mikemk
You might want to change your username, sounds like you have a particularly baity username.
Or perhaps people recognize you as a good player and kill you to make the game easier
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:30 amby James2
You being salty about losing is not a valid reason for changing game mechanics.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:32 amby James2
Flake wrote:There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out.
Removing the witch's will would be a drastic nerf. It's one of the main things deterring the mafia from killing the witch.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:24 amby Mikemk
James2 wrote:Flake wrote:There is really no loss in making the Witch's last will not flip upon death, since her win chance is not affected by information she is giving out.
Removing the witch's will would be a drastic nerf. It's one of the main things deterring the mafia from killing the witch.
this, right here.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:40 pmby James2
Flake wrote:it is also true that Mafia/NK killing Witch in many of these circumstances is fair.
No. If the witch has an effective deterrent to being killed then it isn't "fair" that she should die, just so that you can implement a buff to the mafia.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:34 pmby James2
Flake wrote:Also, the incentive of doing this would not be to give Mafia a buff, and you know that.
The only argument you've presented for this idea is that it would buff the mafia (and NK) by preventing the witch from outing them. If the mafia feel the need to kill the witch, they should have to bear the potential consequences of doing so. Increasing mafia win rates is not a valid argument for imposing a disability on the witch.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 7:14 amby BasicFourLife
Shyyster wrote:So a witch that dies D2 by lynching or being executed N2 should be given a win after evils manage to win without them? Sounds unfair.
Mafia can die N1 and still win. Your point?
shapesifter13 wrote:If this happens the witch would likely get sizable nerfs. She has roughly a 50% win rate currently.
You can start by getting rid of her Consig ability, it’s retarded for her to have it in the first place.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:38 pmby James2
The mafia is a team. The witch is a solo neutral. There's no valid reason for the witch to win while dead.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:11 pmby Transcender
witch winning while dead would without doubt ruin witch and would be way to op, right?
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:51 amby James2
Flake wrote:James2 wrote:Flake wrote:Also, the incentive of doing this would not be to give Mafia a buff, and you know that.
The only argument you've presented for this idea is that it would buff the mafia (and NK) by preventing the witch from outing them. If the mafia feel the need to kill the witch, they should have to bear the potential consequences of doing so. Increasing mafia win rates is not a valid argument for imposing a disability on the witch.
The argument I've presented is that the unfair elements that can come about by Witch outing Mafia/NK are far more massive than the unfair elements that can come about from Mafia/NK situationally having slightly more incentive to kill the Witch than if she did not have a Last Will. Again, I never once argued that "increasing mafia win rates" is my argument for imposing a very slight nerf on the Witch; making the Witch significantly more fair is my argument for imposing a very slight nerf on the Witch.
The possibility of the mafia or NK being caught and exposed by another faction is not an "unfair element". As I said to the OP, increasing the win rates of one faction is not a valid argument for disabling another.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 1:48 amby Mikemk
BasicFourLife wrote:You can start by getting rid of her Consig ability, it’s retarded for her to have it in the first place.
Actually, only consig ability would work better than only controlling, since she could find out who she wins with.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 10:26 amby Anyar
I mostly agree with Flake.
Well, not necessarily the part about Witch wills. More importantly the game could use a notepad feature that's shown to no one so she can write down Mafia names without exposing them needlessly.
But the Witch does have no reason whatsoever to be talking after dying. Like other NEs (excepting a lynched Jester), they might as well leave as soon as they're in the grave instead of staying and potentially giving info to Meds out of spite.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 11:33 amby James2
Flake wrote:James2 wrote:The possibility of the mafia or NK being caught and exposed by another faction is not an "unfair element".
For Witch it is in many cases.
No. Having to engage in diplomacy with neutrals is not an "unfair element". Neutrals siding against you is not an "unfair element". This is no different from any other salty kingmaker scenario.
Also, giving away your mafia teammates to someone outside the mafia is a stupid. Losing because of your own or a teammates stupidity is not an "unfair element".
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 12:23 pmby James2
The possibility of losing is not unfair.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:09 pmby James2
Perhaps instead of playing against 14 other people, each ToS player should just play against 14 NPCs. That way, their win/loss ratio wouldn't be affected in any way by their people.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:10 pmby James2
In case the point is still lost on you, diplomacy is one of the social skills required for Town of Salem. Those who have it will, in the aggregate, win more kingmaker scenarios than those who don't.
Re: Witch needs to win regardless if she is dead if evils wi
Posted:
Sun Mar 17, 2019 4:54 pmby Atalanta8
Anyar wrote: they might as well leave as soon as they're in the grave instead of staying and potentially giving info to Meds out of spite.
And lose -15 elo for doing so.