Buff The Mafia

[MicrowavedSalad]

I think the other way around, the mafia has a massive benefit over the town: knowing for sure who is on your side, and who isn't.

The mafia can easily take over a town (in ranked anyway) if the jailor/tk isn't too bright. And sadly, iv'e seen my town go to hell immediately after the one or two smart people who actually ask questions die.

[MicrowavedSalad]

I think the other way around, the mafia has a massive benefit over the town: knowing for sure who is on your side, and who isn't.

The mafia can easily take over a town (in ranked anyway) if the jailor/tk isn't too bright. And sadly, iv'e seen my town go to hell immediately after the one or two smart people who actually ask questions die.

Trying to draw a conclusion on the overall utility of Town and Mafia based on low level of play from either or both sides is quite silly. The inherent advantages or disadvantages of either faction are going to be most apparent at a high level of play, so it makes far more sense to draw a conclusion based on the assumption that all players are highly and equally skilled. It is easy to see that Town has far higher inherent potential utility than the Mafia by looking at higher levels of play.

I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

[MicrowavedSalad]

I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

Yikes. Have you played Ranked before?

lol yeah just that (for me) the town ends up going dumb and killing themselves off while the mafia blends in naturally until its 4v4 and town accepts their doom

[Villagerlover]

I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

Yikes. Have you played Ranked before?

lol yeah just that (for me) the town ends up going dumb and killing themselves off while the mafia blends in naturally until its 4v4 and town accepts their doom

Are you sure playing Ranked, and not Ranked Practice?
Because Ranked townies are really smart, and know how to do ultimate meta all the time. The mafia have trouble blending in day 1 because the town finds ways to single out the random town slots for that particular game...

[BasicFourLife]

I guess that makes sense, but I still feel that it's balanced enough to have a fair game (given that everyone is exerting the same levels of skill and wit) between the fact that townies have trouble confirming each other and mafia is good at fitting in with the townies.

Yikes. Have you played Ranked before?

lol yeah just that (for me) the town ends up going dumb and killing themselves off while the mafia blends in naturally until its 4v4 and town accepts their doom

then ur tarded

[Descender]

What gamemode are you playing lmao

[Zyprexa2024]

For the buff for mafia, I would say replace one RM with a Mafia Support (consig, consort, bmer) as Mafia Support has the 3 by far best mafia role, would make people less likely to leave because of a double disg/framer/forger game. I believe this could actually work because we all know how it feels for you to be in a mafia with two framers where everyone but you leaves. I also would say that there should be two NE instead of a NK, becasue only SK can really win and SK still has so many things that should be buffed with it. Also, jester can be a really fun role if you play it right, same with exe. I believe that the invest result for witch means instant death for them, make witch in the invest results along with invest and consig (witch/investigator/consigliere) because of witch's ability to determine roles. this may also need to come with a buff too spy, making spy be able to see who witch visits. But really just maybe. These are all just ideas! But I know that we have all experienced evils leaving, or leaving our selves because we know that in ranked mafia has a 30% ish percent chance of winning and NK has 2%.

[Zyprexa2024]

I have another idea that could go with replacing an RM with MS (mafia support), which is bmer, consort, or consig, give mafia, something like Coven's Necronomicon. Could be an easy buff

[Zyprexa2024]

Tbh, this is more something that has to do with the meta rather than how roles originally work. It is very hard to work around the tp/lo jailor meta.

I think the problem lies at that there is always a guaranteed jailor. Imo, it should be 2 town killing rather than a guaranteed jailor.

I also think that there shouldn't always be a jailor, 2 tks would be nice instead.

[k70freeman]

There should be a role where you can stage deaths. They can make it look like someone else killed the victim. The janitor should be able to alter their victims role not just erase them.

[Algus]

Any can never happen.

#1, Vampires (fuck the absolute shit out of vampires) For a lot of reasons. /canmakeTKaVHwhichfavorsMaf/punishestownfordyingearlyevenwithgoodplay/listneverreallyends/
#2, Mafia getting 5 members. This approaches vote majority day 2 territory. This shouldnt even exist, it shouldve been capped at 4.

if you want to however, remove Vampire and All mafia roles from the 'Any' slot be my guest. 2nd NK second NE, more bitching by corgi about kingmaker NBs go for it I don't actually care.
What you can't do is add any and leave any of those roles in.

You complain about RT but RT is the only reason mafia has viable claimspace. (Ignoring my next point..)
Making Janitors a static ranked role but reducing their cleans to 2 seems kind of fine, but even if you could have your guaranteed Janitor you would also be hindering yourself; any medium invest turnout is autolynched if it's a known.

Buffing useless (debatably useless) RMs

I do not believe mafia needs a buff no. If I were going to buff mafia though this is where I would begin and end.
Mafioso is it's own reward in not autolosing when GF/Mafio one or the other gets rbed or jailed.

Framer is so dependant on luck and almost exclusively a liability to mafia, i'd outright delete it. This alone makes mafia infinitely more reliable. Wow.
Forger takes such an enormous amount of skill to do well, and absolutely none of that skill carries into high elo so don't bother. Delete this so the odds of Jan go up yet again. Amazing.
Blackmailer. Make. This. Visit. Invisible. To. Spy.
I'm (VEHEMNTLY) of the opinion spy is extremely hot trash. In fact it is absolutely trash in it's current state. but yknow why it's still remotely useful? because rms with useless abilities exist and tell him who isn't mafia. I'm willing to overlook this fact in favor of making blackmailer visits invisible to spy, but only if spy gets something back in return.

That's how you buff the mafia
Ambusher in classic? I do not trust giving mafia 2 potential kills in 1 night not to break ranked. The ambusher will /likely/ die following, yes, but likely isn't good enough.
It sounds too dangerous for my tastes.

disguiser is fine as is. it has the most subtle impact when played well but it makes a wave in that scenario.

[Algus]

Any can never happen.

#1, Vampires (fuck the absolute shit out of vampires) For a lot of reasons. /canmakeTKaVHwhichfavorsMaf/punishestownfordyingearlyevenwithgoodplay/listneverreallyends/
#2, Mafia getting 5 members. This approaches vote majority day 2 territory. This shouldnt even exist, it shouldve been capped at 4.

if you want to however, remove Vampire and All mafia roles from the 'Any' slot be my guest. 2nd NK second NE, more bitching by corgi about kingmaker NBs go for it I don't actually care.
What you can't do is add any and leave any of those roles in.

So you're saying a 2nd NK rolling in an Any slot or am I reading this wrong

If so, yikes

Literally the only argument one needs to completely destroy the misconception that an Any slot could ever be balanced is the huge negative impacts on gameplay as a result of game's outcome being more heavily influenced by luck and less influenced by skill as a result

Remove however many of the roles that would be terrible rolling in an Any slot as you'd like, but it literally doesn't matter because the prior argument always holds, so long as roles from completely different super alignments can roll in the same slot then it just isn't a good idea

we don't disagree

i just care less
If it did get added back however, those 2 arguments must be considered. No vamps, no 5th mafia. in which case, why would you want it back in the context of helping mafia.
That's basically my point

[MoreSatan]

Mafia is so weak seriously I hate being maf. They should bring back the neutral role amne is ok survivor is bad they should create something else.

[heiisbeiis2]

mafia has no chance of winning unless town gets abolutely stupid.
it needs a buff, or town needs to be nerfed, it's no fun like this anymore.
mafia is getting desperate so they will just do shit at random, to see if they can find retri or jailor early, which almost never works.

a good change would be to have neutral chaos instead of neutral evil in ranked/ranked practice. this way there is more killing potential, or a the chance for a GA or something.
another good change would be to bring ambusher into classic.

or drop the chance for retri and transporter a bit.
or give mafia a new role, a failed doctor who now works for organised crime, who can heal someone by getting the correct thing at a mini game, like pirate has.

but whatever you do, maf needs to be buffed

Mafia does have a chance at winning, you just need to learn how to lie. If you just sit there the whole game and don't even attempt to lie or claim a role, you are doing something wrong. You can't just expect to win without trying. If you think mafia is that difficult to win as, you either suck at lying or you aren't actually trying. It isn't that difficult to figure out people's roles if you actually pay attention to chat. It's just process of elimination. If you have brain cells, you can win as mafia. Specifically in ranked practice, you have 4 mafia. It should be the easiest win of your life. If you can't win with 4 mafia, you are just bad. It doesn't need a buff just because you are unable to lie.

Neutral Chaos would be a nightmare in ranked/ranked practice. No one wants to deal with vampires. That's why people play that game mode. Maybe a Neutral Benign would work, but not a Neutral Chaos.

Bringing ambusher into classic would probably be a nightmare as well. Everyone in that game mode is already brain dead and can barely handle 3 maf, an sk, and 2 neutrals (which should be an ez win if you are evil and keep the 2 neutrals alive to stall votes). Giving the mafia another member to kill would not be good in classic.

Mafia does not need a buff. Your brain needs a buff. Get better at lying.

[Dongiorgione]

Or maybe nerf the jailor.
- Once the jailor executes a town member, the jailor can't jail anyone anymore instead of execute.

[heiisbeiis2]

Or maybe nerf the jailor.
- Once the jailor executes a town member, the jailor can't jail anyone anymore instead of execute.

The jailor is fine how he is. So is mafia. It isn't like you can't lie to the jailor. Maybe it's harder to lie to someone who is better at the game, but once you figure out how to be a good liar, it isn't that difficult to trick even a decent player.

[BasicFourLife]

mafia has no chance of winning unless town gets abolutely stupid.
it needs a buff, or town needs to be nerfed, it's no fun like this anymore.
mafia is getting desperate so they will just do shit at random, to see if they can find retri or jailor early, which almost never works.

a good change would be to have neutral chaos instead of neutral evil in ranked/ranked practice. this way there is more killing potential, or a the chance for a GA or something.
another good change would be to bring ambusher into classic.

or drop the chance for retri and transporter a bit.
or give mafia a new role, a failed doctor who now works for organised crime, who can heal someone by getting the correct thing at a mini game, like pirate has.

but whatever you do, maf needs to be buffed

Mafia does have a chance at winning, you just need to learn how to lie. If you just sit there the whole game and don't even attempt to lie or claim a role, you are doing something wrong. You can't just expect to win without trying. If you think mafia is that difficult to win as, you either suck at lying or you aren't actually trying. It isn't that difficult to figure out people's roles if you actually pay attention to chat. It's just process of elimination. If you have brain cells, you can win as mafia. Specifically in ranked practice, you have 4 mafia. It should be the easiest win of your life. If you can't win with 4 mafia, you are just bad. It doesn't need a buff just because you are unable to lie.

Neutral Chaos would be a nightmare in ranked/ranked practice. No one wants to deal with vampires. That's why people play that game mode. Maybe a Neutral Benign would work, but not a Neutral Chaos.

Bringing ambusher into classic would probably be a nightmare as well. Everyone in that game mode is already brain dead and can barely handle 3 maf, an sk, and 2 neutrals (which should be an ez win if you are evil and keep the 2 neutrals alive to stall votes). Giving the mafia another member to kill would not be good in classic.

Mafia does not need a buff. Your brain needs a buff. Get better at lying.

You are what we call a *beep*. It doesn't matter how good you are at lying. It doesn't matter if you know everyone's roles very early on. You are still never going to have more than a 33% winrate as Mafia. The current WR for Mafia is actually 10-20%. And Town has a 70% winrate and the best part is the majority of the Town players don't even try. How high of a WR would you think Townies had if they all mass claimed Day 1 and kept track of everyone's roles? It would be higher than 90%.