Ban Retributionist from Ranked

[CloudNine661]

I have an idea! This wont fix the "instantly confirm 2 townie" mechanic

But it will remove a more useful townie from the game in exchange

Proposed changes:
- Retributionist has to Sacrifice a townie other than itself to revive
- Retributionist has to select someone to sacrifice at night
- The person he sacrifices gets the message "You have been chosen as a sacrifice to resurrect [TOWNIE], Do you accept?"
- To which the person must accept
- Only towns can accept, however, evils can be selected to be the sacrifice, but nothing will happen and ret will get no message as to what happened

This helps evils because:
- They could claim retri (in a non retri game) and blame their lack of resurrection on someone not accepting the sacrifice
- To decrease the risk of selecting an evil and wasting a night, the Ret may HAVE to select a confirmed useful townie in order to revive that may include Mayor etc

HOWEVER:
- A mafia who knows who the retributionist can convince the Retributionist to sacrifice them, KNOWING that it wont work becaue they wont be a townie and make them waste a night

It's a good idea but that could end up with an abusive strategy. Since only towns can accept it then a retri could go around seeing if one denies an important revive or not. It kind of acts like the next best TI role. It can also be used to push for a role from that person on why they would deny it. In this nerfing of the retri just seems to make it an OP TI.

Except realistically, ret would then risk giving up their rezzing ability to do so. Of course what if it was a jailor or jester that was chosen, usually the sacrifice would've been discussed during the day or something. The "going around to see if one denies" how many nights would that waste, only to find it was a mayor that denied the sacrifice for obvious reasons. Plus someone can easily say that the retributionist isnt legitimate and say that the message never came up. The thing with this is that any evil can claim ret, and cause a mislynch, trusting that the town would trust a Ret claim over someone not accepting a sacrifice

I was thinking this creates a situation that is kind of like where there is 2 vig claims planning to shoot each other; like a GF claiming vig and saying that a townie is Immune, and a real Vigi who actually shot the GF (who was definitely immune). Why trust one over the other?

[AnchorSaviour]

Except realistically, ret would then risk giving up their rezzing ability to do so.

If what you are proposing is that the Retri now has a limited number of ATTEMPTED revives then I would actually agree with your suggested change. If the retri had to sacrifice another town role to revive a much more needed role such as a mayor or jailor then that would be only a good change if they had a limited number tries to revive someone. If this is the case then I support your suggestion.

[AnchorSaviour]

Offering my raw opinion here when I say this but I have no problem WHATSOEVER with the retributionist being available in ranked. I mean, it's just a role with a very niche talent. What's the difference if it "confirms two townies instantly"? A mayor does half of that in a single instance and so does a Jailor, a sheriff will become confirmed if he finds a mafia member and lynches it. I mean, it just sounds so sad that this is the most common excuse for nerfing the retributionist. It's completely and utterly useless dead, near worthless after the ability is used and is a VERY and I mean VERY easy target when revealed. Just reiterating, I have no problem with the retributionist and furthermore, I see no issue with it being available in ranked either.

[Bodhrak]

If you are interested in random player opinions:
I'd vote for banning Ret from Ranked (and Ranked only) until it's reworked.

My main problem is not only how powerful it is, it's also incredibly easy to play, requiring virtually no skill at all.
D1: (Optional: Ask for TP/LO if someone else doesn't do it.) Otherwise do nothing.
N1: Do nothing. Most likely some Town role will die.
D2: Do nothing. If you have to claim anything, claim Med.
N2: Revive the dead town.
D3: /w the revived target as soon as the day starts.
You're done. You now have the bonus of not only being confirmed, but also a low priority target. You can leave leading town to the confirmed townie.

There is no counterplay to this. Ret may be killed N1 or be roleblocked N2 (by the consort that Maf may or may not have), but that's about it.
And that has nothing to do with counterplay, it's just RNG.

I also have to add that I think it adds to swing that TS roles can be rolled as RT at all.
I remember games that had a Ret, a Mayor and a Trans (and a Vet). Providing town with 6 confirmed roles by D3.
I also remember a game where town had three escorts and after there was no maf kill N2 they all just kept roleblocking their targets until we had all the claims and could slowly sort out the evil roles. Oh and the Arsonist also gave up after being roleblocked 5 days in a row.

Here's a different approach to solve that:
TS roles can no longer roll as Random Town (in Ranked only).
Med get's some way of confirming itself, to put it on equal footing with the others. (Maybe they can use their seance also when alive, this makes it still risky as they don't know if they or their target will survive the night).
And a lot of the swing in Ranked will be gone.

[asdf8765]

/support

Having a retri in a game confirms at least 2 people, confirms a TS role, and confirms all mediums / invalidates fake medium claims.

I just had a game, where SK miraculously killed jailor n1 (I'm serious. Jailor didn't jail anyone n1, it was in his will). and we thought, oh nice, evils are winning this one. But the next day jailor comes back, confirms 2 mediums (and the ret), and there was a trans. TP and TK died n2, and 1 spy died n1. So guess what, the only possible claim for evils was TI. And nobody trusts late TI claims. All this put together meant there were 5 unconfirmed roles, out of them 4 were evil. Town won the game d3 without doing anything.

[ThePublicDomain]

After reading countless discussions on this topic, I think this is a fine, if not should happen, solution.

Either this or alter it just for Ranked.

[JorgitoEstrella]

Plase Ban Ranked from the game, it's so obnoxious how even when mafia tries his best they even ended up losing due to Retributionist.

I'm not saying "remove REt from the game", just from Ranked.

[Villagerlover]

I truly believe the Retributionist should have a rework from the ground up as Kirizie said.

I have seen so many threads and solutions like this, and I've even proposed my own before. But it just seems no matter what kind of "trade off" or "punishment" can be implemented on the revival ability itself, it's still none the less, a revival ability to only help the meta for town which is absolutely overpowered. Confirming 2 town roles and setting back all evil roles by 1 day is completely unfair for mafia, neutral killers, and the Witch.

Limiting the abilities of the revived person has been proposed, and my problem with that nowadays is that it really doesn't help the meta. A town role that is confirmed and will never be voted by other town members doesn't need an ability other than talking and voting. So reviving a nerfed jailor or mayor isn't going to solve the problem since the town still retains a voting power.
The retributionist sacrificing themselves to revive another town member has been heavily suggested, and heavily denied for good reason. That reason being that the retributionist's main ability would be boring because it literally requires you to kill yourself to help the town. And as far as I'm aware, it's not ever fun to be dead...with an ability like that, be prepared to see a lot more people leaving when they roll retributionist on the role wheel. I don't think a "trade off" is going to be worth it. I believe the retributinoist should have something that it can contribute to the town without any sort of requirement of killing itself.


The retributinisst has been the target of many unhappy balancers, and yet there still doesn't seem to be a way to work with a "revival" ability. So naturally it seems the only good solution for balance is to rework the role entirely.

[itaicool]

Mabye change it so the retri revive a player and then the play lives for 2 days and dies again? (The retri can only keep his soul alive for short duration)

[MoustachioMario]

I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life ;)

[MysticMismagius]

I think we should remove Ret in general until we can find a suitable fix for it.

I mean, dead people are not supposed to come back to life

People are also not supposed to be able to turn each other into vampires, or use voodoo magic to control the actions of others, or speak to the souls of the dead, but it still happens in this game.

[ThePublicDomain]

I'm fine with this change but I don't want it to be permanent; as soon as it receives a rework that balances it, it should be moved back to ranked.

There really is not much to rework. It brings someone back from the dead, that is all it needs to do.