Remove Retributionist from ranked

[theeldersmurf]

In a game about social deduction, having to figure out whos good and whos bad before the baddies kill the good, where does a Retributionist fit? Retributionist does not aid the town in any healthy way, does not contribute any direct or indirect info to town, contributes no killing power to town, yet is the most gamebreaking role. There is extremely little counterplay to it, which boils down to getting lucky and killing it Night 1. Retri does not have to announce themselves, can freely revive a dead townie, and now when that townie is revived, they are undisputibly town, anything they say is fact, and any false claims mafia had will easily get uprooted (for example, killing an LO who can verify GF was not a tp on jailor, when he claimed he was). There is no counterplay, it instantly turns the game to a town 100% victory and in one action really ruins an entire game. Having to kill jailor once is a problem enough, especially with the hardcore jailor meta stuff going on, so killing jailor again once they know some claims are bs is SIGIFICANTLY HARDER. Hell I lost a game as SK because there were 3 people left, a jailor/unknown townie and me (sk), jailor jails me, doesn't exe me, i kill him, then next night kill retri but he brings back jailor, now i lose because of something 100000% I could not account for. If you really want retri as a role in ranked (which the mechanic is still game ruining btw), the retri must take 2 days to revive and must be anounced to the town like a mayor in order to be able to revive (also losing healing rights), but jailing the retri would cancel the revive). Give mafia some ways to play against it, like kill it before it revives or rb it or kill the jailor while tp is on retri, ect. As it stands now, retri is just an extremely unhealthy role for both town and mafia, and any game with a retri make feel like you just wasted 15 minutes of your life, because any potential work just got thrown out the window.

I would love to hear other opinions on the role, and I do not believe it should be outright removed from the game, just ranked, ranked practice, and the town support/any town slot, and should only be available as a pre-selected role or an ANY slot

[zzjay]

A first step could be the Ret dying upon res.
This of course removes the claiming ret for evils,since the only way to find out the real ret,is exploit a bug wishpering to the resurrected man at night.

[Kears123]

I actually think retri is pretty helpful and adds more unpredictability to the game. Yes, I can see it being frustrating if you're mafia but I like it being in the game.

[orangeandblack5]

I actually think retri is pretty helpful and adds more unpredictability to the game. Yes, I can see it being frustrating if you're mafia but I like it being in the game.

This is where we need to learn to seperate personal likes and dislikes from what is best for the game.

[theeldersmurf]

I agree that the Retributionist should be pulled from the Ranked modes of the game. Don't change it, don't destroy it. Leave it as is for the rest of the game, where people want to have fun and don't care about playing super seriously. I believe most of the player base plays Classic or All Any, and they all play to have fun. Ret, while not the most balanced role in the game, can make the game fun in those modes that aren't exactly meant to be seriously balanced.

Pull the Ret from spawning in Ranked/RP, leave it as is for the rest of us who want to have fun with TOS.

Wanting to change a role or remove it from the game because it's horrible for Ranked Players hurts the rest of the game, because it makes the game less fun for everyone else. It happened when the spy got changed last year because it was OP for Ranked, but it was perfectly fine in All Any and it will happen again if Ret is removed or changed.

This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Not everyone thinks Ranked is fun, some people do, but others think All Any is the best part of the game.

For me, and I'm sure plenty of others, Ret is fun and adds an element of surprise and fun to Classic and All Any. Why ruin people's fun instead of just doing the most reasonable option: remove it from Ranked.

And if you actually read my post, you would see that I suggested it would specifically be removed from ranked, and that it was fine for other modes. The suggestions I gave were if the devs had some diehard desire to keep it in ranked. The spy was another unhealthy mechanic that had 0 counter play other than killing them N1.

[BasicFourLife]

Yes, there are around 100 of this exact type of thread. As Flake mentioned, removal from Ranked only is not an option. Therefore, the Retributionist needs to be reworked and there are existing balanced reworks of this which can very well work.

[theeldersmurf]

Yes, there are around 100 of this exact type of thread. As Flake mentioned, removal from Ranked only is not an option. Therefore, the Retributionist needs to be reworked and there are existing balanced reworks of this which can very well work.

Vampires, vamp hunter, and neutral benign were removed from ranked, they could easily remove retri. They are the developers of the game they can do whatever they want.

[BasicFourLife]

Yes, there are around 100 of this exact type of thread. As Flake mentioned, removal from Ranked only is not an option. Therefore, the Retributionist needs to be reworked and there are existing balanced reworks of this which can very well work.

Vampires, vamp hunter, and neutral benign were removed from ranked, they could easily remove retri. They are the developers of the game they can do whatever they want.

Those are sub-alignments which were removed which happened to contain these roles (excluding VH since it can only spawn with Vamps) not roles individually.

[BasicFourLife]

I guess I just have a major problem when such a small portion of the playerbase (Ranked players) decide they hate a role so much they want it removed or changed so drastically. Recall the poll that was done over a year ago, most of the TOS playerbase plays All Any, and most don't use the forums. They don't care for balance, they want to have fun. Roles like Ret and the old Spy were not issues for them, and the changes to the Spy last summer caused a lot of anger in games I was in because BMG made the Spy significantly less fun than it was. Which is another point I want to make. Making the game super serious and balancing all the roles to fit the vision of the balanced game mode threatens to remove the fun of Town of Salem. Games are supposed to be fun, but if we treat every role like it should be played in Ranked, roles that are fun, like the old Spy, get trashed. It could drive away some long time players if good roles keep getting tinkered because they aren't "balanced".

Another issue I have with all this is the top suggested changed I have seen made for the Ret is to replace it with Trauma Patient. I absolutely do not see the appeal of Trauma Patient at all. It's not a fun role. Amnesiac is because you can pick the alignment you want, and most people will pick a NK role because they are fun, or the mafia. Having to pick between, what some may see as the most boring town roles is going to make Trauma Patient more boring than the ret IMO. Let's face it, most people, when given the choice, are going to want to go for a fun killing role, that's why most amnesiacs I've encountered will go Mafia, or SK, or Arso, or WW in All Any. I also want to point out the hypocrisy of asking for Trauma Patient to replace the ret. Under the guidelines thread in role ideas it is discouraged that people make copycat roles, or roles that already exist but for a different alignment. That's exactly what Trauma Patient is though. It's Amnesiac, under the Town Alignment. You guys are basically breaking one of your guidelines by heavily suggesting a copycat role to replace the Ret.

Basically, I feel like I'm going to be at the point where I don't wanna play Town of Salem at all if stuff like this continues, because it is taking the fun out of the game for me when roles I like and see no issues with get drastically changed because "they aren't balanced" for a mode only a fraction of the overall playerbase plays. That's why I prefer removing a role from spawning in those modes, and letting the rest of us, the majority of us players, enjoy the role as is in All Any, Custom and Classic. Keep the game fun, as it should be for those who don't have a large voice and just wanna have a good time playing TOS.

Just cause you dislike TrPa, doesn't mean the entire community dislikes it. And the outleash for a change APPLIES FOR EVERY SINGLE ROLE AND CHANGE. There's always going to be community disagreement and dislike but that's just a part you need to accept in any games where you make changes to a character or something which changes how it does something. By your logic, the game should be kept exactly as it is since every single changes comes with community outleash. You do know the game is already slowly dying and if no changes were made it's only a matter of a few years until BMG would have to shut down ToS. And again, YOU DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE MAJORITY OF NON-RANKED PLAYERS!

[BasicFourLife]

I guess I just have a major problem when such a small portion of the playerbase (Ranked players) decide they hate a role so much they want it removed or changed so drastically. Recall the poll that was done over a year ago, most of the TOS playerbase plays All Any, and most don't use the forums. They don't care for balance, they want to have fun. Roles like Ret and the old Spy were not issues for them, and the changes to the Spy last summer caused a lot of anger in games I was in because BMG made the Spy significantly less fun than it was. Which is another point I want to make. Making the game super serious and balancing all the roles to fit the vision of the balanced game mode threatens to remove the fun of Town of Salem. Games are supposed to be fun, but if we treat every role like it should be played in Ranked, roles that are fun, like the old Spy, get trashed. It could drive away some long time players if good roles keep getting tinkered because they aren't "balanced".

Another issue I have with all this is the top suggested changed I have seen made for the Ret is to replace it with Trauma Patient. I absolutely do not see the appeal of Trauma Patient at all. It's not a fun role. Amnesiac is because you can pick the alignment you want, and most people will pick a NK role because they are fun, or the mafia. Having to pick between, what some may see as the most boring town roles is going to make Trauma Patient more boring than the ret IMO. Let's face it, most people, when given the choice, are going to want to go for a fun killing role, that's why most amnesiacs I've encountered will go Mafia, or SK, or Arso, or WW in All Any. I also want to point out the hypocrisy of asking for Trauma Patient to replace the ret. Under the guidelines thread in role ideas it is discouraged that people make copycat roles, or roles that already exist but for a different alignment. That's exactly what Trauma Patient is though. It's Amnesiac, under the Town Alignment. You guys are basically breaking one of your guidelines by heavily suggesting a copycat role to replace the Ret.

Basically, I feel like I'm going to be at the point where I don't wanna play Town of Salem at all if stuff like this continues, because it is taking the fun out of the game for me when roles I like and see no issues with get drastically changed because "they aren't balanced" for a mode only a fraction of the overall playerbase plays. That's why I prefer removing a role from spawning in those modes, and letting the rest of us, the majority of us players, enjoy the role as is in All Any, Custom and Classic. Keep the game fun, as it should be for those who don't have a large voice and just wanna have a good time playing TOS.

I agree, but we literally have no option. Shape explicitly told us that they don't want to remove specific roles from Ranked, so the only choice we have is to rework them and change roles such that they are fit for Ranked (as Testing Grounds is only for fixing Ranked mode). Since we have to abide by this, we will still be taking modes other than Ranked into consideration, as some changes will directly affect other modes. I'm aware that you are mainly talking about Ranked players as a whole, but some of this seems to be directed at the Testing Grounds.

Testing Grounds does not use Trauma Patient as a replacement of the Retributionist; it is merely added as an independent role, so it is not harming anything. Since Amnesiac is not in Ranked Town of Salem, the potential issue that Trauma Patient is a different alignment copy of the Amnesiac is not so much of an issue. The rework of the Retributionist is a Town Protective rework which was recently added, and as it is in it's early stages, alterations will likely be made to make it more balanced and fun. Note that, especially for reworks like this, we will also be considering the fun aspect, so as to not leave players of modes outside of Ranked in the dark.

But Trauma Patient is still a better option. But yes, the fun part is always considered, we aren't just gonna suggest adding a Tree Stump but it is the best role or another boring role to Ranked. People see Testing Grounds as the "Oh no they want to make the game boring with all their changes and remove all fun" but this is untrue. That's not how the Testing Grounds operate, the community and Developer sayings are always considered. After all, it's not just about fixing Ranked. It's about making the game more enjoyable and fun to play, which some people find through balance and others find through role/game mechanics and spicy rolelists.

[theeldersmurf]

Since everyone here seems to have the idea of not removing a role from ranked (and ranked practice), how about just remove the role from the game. It is a role that still has no place in a social deduction game. I don't know what the testing grounds are or what retri rework is on them but until it comes to the game and actually balances the role, it doesn't matter.

[orangeandblack5]

something something Kickstarter promises probably

[LaughingInsanity]

/remove ret

[Zee235]

something something Kickstarter promises probably

Fun fact:

The developers can remove the Kickstarter promises if they want to. They're not under any obligation to keep them if things don't work out. (things like the PS port and stuff they should probably try to add, since it was an accomplished promise and people did spend a lot of money for it, but ultimately the shitty roles have been here for a year and no one with an informed opinion really enjoys them - but they won't be removed either, as they don't want to axe any roles)

This is from shapesifter.

Spoiler: Official TG Not Legal07/12/2018
Last I checked, Forger and Werewolf are two kickstarter-promised roles
DDTG Devotionist07/12/2018
I know there was the thing with getting the free Ariel skin if you just logged on
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Yeah they were.
Official TG Not Legal07/12/2018
Doesn't that mean BMG is obligated to keep them in the game?
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Not really
Official TG Not Legal07/12/2018
They're not?
shapesifter1307/12/2018
We aren't obligated to do anything
DDTG Devotionist07/12/2018
lol
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Kickstarter says to make your best effort
Flake07/12/2018
an interesting turn of events
shapesifter1307/12/2018
there is no legal obligation.
I'm not saying we are removing them
Official TG Married Husbando07/12/2018
Were Last Wills and Death Notes also Kickstarter promises?
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Just stating facts

It isn't because of Kickstarter shit. It is because they don't want to take away content. According to shape anyways on tg discord

[Zee235]

something something Kickstarter promises probably

Fun fact:

The developers can remove the Kickstarter promises if they want to. They're not under any obligation to keep them if things don't work out. (things like the PS port and stuff they should probably try to add, since it was an accomplished promise and people did spend a lot of money for it, but ultimately the shitty roles have been here for a year and no one with an informed opinion really enjoys them - but they won't be removed either, as they don't want to axe any roles)

This is from shapesifter.

Spoiler: Official TG Not Legal07/12/2018
Last I checked, Forger and Werewolf are two kickstarter-promised roles
DDTG Devotionist07/12/2018
I know there was the thing with getting the free Ariel skin if you just logged on
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Yeah they were.
Official TG Not Legal07/12/2018
Doesn't that mean BMG is obligated to keep them in the game?
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Not really
Official TG Not Legal07/12/2018
They're not?
shapesifter1307/12/2018
We aren't obligated to do anything
DDTG Devotionist07/12/2018
lol
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Kickstarter says to make your best effort
Flake07/12/2018
an interesting turn of events
shapesifter1307/12/2018
there is no legal obligation.
I'm not saying we are removing them
Official TG Married Husbando07/12/2018
Were Last Wills and Death Notes also Kickstarter promises?
shapesifter1307/12/2018
Just stating facts

It isn't because of Kickstarter shit. It is because they don't want to take away content. According to shape anyways on tg discord

I'm aware. I'm a TG Balancer. I was in this chat. I am quoting it.

My point is "this was in kickstarter" is not a valid argument.

I see.

Anyways too stay on topic the devs won't do anything until unity is done. Also threads like these have been made 1000 times and imo all Tpow should be removed from ranked. And if they don't want to remove tpow then they should replace Jailor with a Tpow slot so no more then 1 tpow is in a game.