Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:34 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Imagine thinking that any neutral role besides Witch actually gives a damn about sides inherently
Even Witch only barely cares, and shouldn’t be held up as the norm for roles of its sub-alignment due to the fact that it doesn’t exist in half of the game
I suppose by "neutral" you mean NE, since most neutrals care about who wins (NK and NC care about their faction winning, while NB and pirates don't care at all). I wouldn't say witches "barely care" since making town lose is a big deal (although I get it if we're talking about all any). I think being inherently scum sided is the point of the NE alignement. Otherwise, there's no reason not to merge it with NB, is there?. Witches have to make town lose in order to win. Executioners have to hurt town, so they are inherently scum sided (although in a bad way, since they can help town later). Jesters should be NB in my opinion, but since they are not, I'm proposing that achievements that at least encourage them to hurt town.
NC and NK don't give a fuck about sides either. They hate everybody that isn't them. (Pirate just wants to steal from enough people to pull himself out of poverty. Again, he doesn't care which side those people are on.)

Yes I do have an All Any mindset when I say Witch barely cares. Even in Ranked, Witch doesn't care whether she works with Mafia or the NK. In practice she works with Mafia a little bit more, but only because winning with Mafia is easier, not because of any inherent connection between Witches and Mafia. Hence, Witch barely cares about sides.

Exe, which people keep using as an example for why NE cares about sides, does not actually care about sides either. He only cares about one person (same with GA). The only reason why Exe's targets can only be Town is to make the role more challenging. If your target is an evil role, then that game becomes a freebie in most cases. The target restriction is NOT to make Exe care about the conflict between the Town, Mafia, and Coven.

So I stand by what I say. No neutral role aside from Witch actually inherently gives a damn about sides. Not Jester, not Exe, not the NCs or NKs.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:37 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:NC and NK don't give a fuck about sides either. They hate everybody that isn't them. (Pirate just wants to steal from enough people to pull himself out of poverty. Again, he doesn't care which side those people are on.)

Yes, and town don't give a fuck about sides either because they hate everyone who isn't them. And mafia too. And vamps too. And coven too. In fact, not a single role gives a fuck about sides because they can only win with their own faction.
And yes, I forgot to say pirates were the exception.

MysticMismagius wrote:Yes I do have an All Any mindset when I say Witch barely cares. Even in Ranked, Witch doesn't care whether she works with Mafia or the NK. In practice she works with Mafia a little bit more, but only because winning with Mafia is easier, not because of any inherent connection between Witches and Mafia. Hence, Witch barely cares about sides.

I guess "barely" is a subjective word, so we can't really discuss that. In my opinion, caring about town losing is pretty important even if witches can win with everyone else, since evils have to work together at first to defeat town, especially in ranked.

MysticMismagius wrote:Exe, which people keep using as an example for why NE cares about sides, does not actually care about sides either. He only cares about one person (same with GA). The only reason why Exe's targets can only be Town is to make the role more challenging. If your target is an evil role, then that game becomes a freebie in most cases. The target restriction is NOT to make Exe care about the conflict between the Town, Mafia, and Coven.

It doesn't matter why exe's target is town. What matters is that their target is always town, and since they have to get them lynched in order to win, they are an anti-town role (although a bad one, since they can still help town later).
MysticMismagius wrote:So I stand by what I say. No neutral role aside from Witch actually inherently gives a damn about sides. Not Jester, not Exe, not the NCs or NKs.

As I said, NK + NC except pirates care about sides as much as town, mafia and coven. We can agree to disagree about witches since that's a subjective discussion. Executioners are a bad anti-town role, but they do care about sides since they will always be against town in order to win. And yes, jesters don't care about sides as I said, but they should because they are a NE role. So they should either be moved to NB, or reworked, or at least encouraged to help evils, which is what I'm suggesting with these achievements.
Sorry if I have spelling mistakes. English is not my main language.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:21 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:NC and NK don't give a fuck about sides either. They hate everybody that isn't them. (Pirate just wants to steal from enough people to pull himself out of poverty. Again, he doesn't care which side those people are on.)
Yes, and town don't give a fuck about sides either because they hate everyone who isn't them. And mafia too. And vamps too. And coven too. In fact, not a single role gives a fuck about sides because they can only win with their own faction.
And yes, I forgot to say pirates were the exception. Mafia and Town ARE the sides. Obvious twisting of my words is obvious.

MysticMismagius wrote:Yes I do have an All Any mindset when I say Witch barely cares. Even in Ranked, Witch doesn't care whether she works with Mafia or the NK. In practice she works with Mafia a little bit more, but only because winning with Mafia is easier, not because of any inherent connection between Witches and Mafia. Hence, Witch barely cares about sides.
I guess "barely" is a subjective word, so we can't really discuss that. In my opinion, caring about town losing is pretty important even if witches can win with everyone else, since evils have to work together at first to defeat town, especially in ranked. Ranked isn't the only mode that exists or matters.

MysticMismagius wrote:Exe, which people keep using as an example for why NE cares about sides, does not actually care about sides either. He only cares about one person (same with GA). The only reason why Exe's targets can only be Town is to make the role more challenging. If your target is an evil role, then that game becomes a freebie in most cases. The target restriction is NOT to make Exe care about the conflict between the Town, Mafia, and Coven.
It doesn't matter why exe's target is town. What matters is that their target is always town, and since they have to get them lynched in order to win, they are an anti-town role (although a bad one, since they can still help town later).

MysticMismagius wrote:So I stand by what I say. No neutral role aside from Witch actually inherently gives a damn about sides. Not Jester, not Exe, not the NCs or NKs.
As I said, NK + NC except pirates care about sides as much as town, mafia and coven. We can agree to disagree about witches since that's a subjective discussion. Executioners are a bad anti-town role, but they do care about sides since they will always be against town in order to win. And yes, jesters don't care about sides as I said, but they should because they are a NE role. So they should either be moved to NB, or reworked, or at least encouraged to help evils, which is what I'm suggesting with these achievements. What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:19 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.


The word "evil" implies that the role is anti-town. Anything labeled "evil" should generally be harmful to town, even if not explicitly required to make town lose to get its win.

I personally consider Jester to be "core" NE role, but there's something obviously wrong about the role with the goal to "trick town into lynching it" not necessarily posing a problem for town if they fall for the trick and lynch the Jester.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Duckferno » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:30 pm

We're talking about Achievements here.. But regarding both "statements", I agree with Brilliand that anything with 'evil' in the name of the group is considered harmful to town, maybe even the general group of Neutral.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:08 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Mafia and Town ARE the sides. Obvious twisting of my words is obvious.

How am I twisting your words? I literally quoted you saying NK and NC don't care about sides because they hate anyone who isn't them. You didn't provide any other argument, so I used the exact same logic to argue no role cares about sides either, which is obviously wrong. Your argument was just bad, I didn't strawman it.
Also, saying mafia and coven are the sides isn't really an argument, since it's subjective. I say NK, coven and NC (except pirates) are THE sides too.

MysticMismagius wrote:Ranked isn't the only mode that exists or matters.

I never said that.
However, if we are talking about a role's alignement, we are talking about balance, and if we're talking about balance, we can't use all any as an example.

MysticMismagius wrote:What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.

Yes, I think all NE should be unable to work with town at all, because it would make the NE slot less swingy. And I already said most NE are supposed to be anti-town (read my other replies). It's not like witches are the only NE who is anti-town.
I also don't get why the chances of witches spawning matter at all, since they have the same chances of spawning as any other NE role.

Duckferno wrote:We're talking about Achievements here.. But regarding both "statements", I agree with Brilliand that anything with 'evil' in the name of the group is considered harmful to town, maybe even the general group of Neutral.

Yes, this is getting off-topic.

If you want to keep talking about this, we should PM each other or just make another thread.
Sorry if I have spelling mistakes. English is not my main language.
I added a petition to my achievement rework!
Plese come and vote to support it!

If you have any suggestions related to achievements, please post them on my thread so we can suggest them together!
Also, support this suggestion: Total elo rework, by Flake
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