Achievement rework.

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Should this be added? (this is a petition)

Yes
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Yes
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Total votes : 162

Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:34 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Imagine thinking that any neutral role besides Witch actually gives a damn about sides inherently
Even Witch only barely cares, and shouldn’t be held up as the norm for roles of its sub-alignment due to the fact that it doesn’t exist in half of the game
I suppose by "neutral" you mean NE, since most neutrals care about who wins (NK and NC care about their faction winning, while NB and pirates don't care at all). I wouldn't say witches "barely care" since making town lose is a big deal (although I get it if we're talking about all any). I think being inherently scum sided is the point of the NE alignement. Otherwise, there's no reason not to merge it with NB, is there?. Witches have to make town lose in order to win. Executioners have to hurt town, so they are inherently scum sided (although in a bad way, since they can help town later). Jesters should be NB in my opinion, but since they are not, I'm proposing that achievements that at least encourage them to hurt town.
NC and NK don't give a fuck about sides either. They hate everybody that isn't them. (Pirate just wants to steal from enough people to pull himself out of poverty. Again, he doesn't care which side those people are on.)

Yes I do have an All Any mindset when I say Witch barely cares. Even in Ranked, Witch doesn't care whether she works with Mafia or the NK. In practice she works with Mafia a little bit more, but only because winning with Mafia is easier, not because of any inherent connection between Witches and Mafia. Hence, Witch barely cares about sides.

Exe, which people keep using as an example for why NE cares about sides, does not actually care about sides either. He only cares about one person (same with GA). The only reason why Exe's targets can only be Town is to make the role more challenging. If your target is an evil role, then that game becomes a freebie in most cases. The target restriction is NOT to make Exe care about the conflict between the Town, Mafia, and Coven.

So I stand by what I say. No neutral role aside from Witch actually inherently gives a damn about sides. Not Jester, not Exe, not the NCs or NKs.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:37 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:NC and NK don't give a fuck about sides either. They hate everybody that isn't them. (Pirate just wants to steal from enough people to pull himself out of poverty. Again, he doesn't care which side those people are on.)

Yes, and town don't give a fuck about sides either because they hate everyone who isn't them. And mafia too. And vamps too. And coven too. In fact, not a single role gives a fuck about sides because they can only win with their own faction.
And yes, I forgot to say pirates were the exception.

MysticMismagius wrote:Yes I do have an All Any mindset when I say Witch barely cares. Even in Ranked, Witch doesn't care whether she works with Mafia or the NK. In practice she works with Mafia a little bit more, but only because winning with Mafia is easier, not because of any inherent connection between Witches and Mafia. Hence, Witch barely cares about sides.

I guess "barely" is a subjective word, so we can't really discuss that. In my opinion, caring about town losing is pretty important even if witches can win with everyone else, since evils have to work together at first to defeat town, especially in ranked.

MysticMismagius wrote:Exe, which people keep using as an example for why NE cares about sides, does not actually care about sides either. He only cares about one person (same with GA). The only reason why Exe's targets can only be Town is to make the role more challenging. If your target is an evil role, then that game becomes a freebie in most cases. The target restriction is NOT to make Exe care about the conflict between the Town, Mafia, and Coven.

It doesn't matter why exe's target is town. What matters is that their target is always town, and since they have to get them lynched in order to win, they are an anti-town role (although a bad one, since they can still help town later).
MysticMismagius wrote:So I stand by what I say. No neutral role aside from Witch actually inherently gives a damn about sides. Not Jester, not Exe, not the NCs or NKs.

As I said, NK + NC except pirates care about sides as much as town, mafia and coven. We can agree to disagree about witches since that's a subjective discussion. Executioners are a bad anti-town role, but they do care about sides since they will always be against town in order to win. And yes, jesters don't care about sides as I said, but they should because they are a NE role. So they should either be moved to NB, or reworked, or at least encouraged to help evils, which is what I'm suggesting with these achievements.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu Jul 25, 2019 5:21 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:NC and NK don't give a fuck about sides either. They hate everybody that isn't them. (Pirate just wants to steal from enough people to pull himself out of poverty. Again, he doesn't care which side those people are on.)
Yes, and town don't give a fuck about sides either because they hate everyone who isn't them. And mafia too. And vamps too. And coven too. In fact, not a single role gives a fuck about sides because they can only win with their own faction.
And yes, I forgot to say pirates were the exception. Mafia and Town ARE the sides. Obvious twisting of my words is obvious.

MysticMismagius wrote:Yes I do have an All Any mindset when I say Witch barely cares. Even in Ranked, Witch doesn't care whether she works with Mafia or the NK. In practice she works with Mafia a little bit more, but only because winning with Mafia is easier, not because of any inherent connection between Witches and Mafia. Hence, Witch barely cares about sides.
I guess "barely" is a subjective word, so we can't really discuss that. In my opinion, caring about town losing is pretty important even if witches can win with everyone else, since evils have to work together at first to defeat town, especially in ranked. Ranked isn't the only mode that exists or matters.

MysticMismagius wrote:Exe, which people keep using as an example for why NE cares about sides, does not actually care about sides either. He only cares about one person (same with GA). The only reason why Exe's targets can only be Town is to make the role more challenging. If your target is an evil role, then that game becomes a freebie in most cases. The target restriction is NOT to make Exe care about the conflict between the Town, Mafia, and Coven.
It doesn't matter why exe's target is town. What matters is that their target is always town, and since they have to get them lynched in order to win, they are an anti-town role (although a bad one, since they can still help town later).

MysticMismagius wrote:So I stand by what I say. No neutral role aside from Witch actually inherently gives a damn about sides. Not Jester, not Exe, not the NCs or NKs.
As I said, NK + NC except pirates care about sides as much as town, mafia and coven. We can agree to disagree about witches since that's a subjective discussion. Executioners are a bad anti-town role, but they do care about sides since they will always be against town in order to win. And yes, jesters don't care about sides as I said, but they should because they are a NE role. So they should either be moved to NB, or reworked, or at least encouraged to help evils, which is what I'm suggesting with these achievements. What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:19 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.


The word "evil" implies that the role is anti-town. Anything labeled "evil" should generally be harmful to town, even if not explicitly required to make town lose to get its win.

I personally consider Jester to be "core" NE role, but there's something obviously wrong about the role with the goal to "trick town into lynching it" not necessarily posing a problem for town if they fall for the trick and lynch the Jester.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Duckferno » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:30 pm

We're talking about Achievements here.. But regarding both "statements", I agree with Brilliand that anything with 'evil' in the name of the group is considered harmful to town, maybe even the general group of Neutral.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Jul 28, 2019 6:08 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Mafia and Town ARE the sides. Obvious twisting of my words is obvious.

How am I twisting your words? I literally quoted you saying NK and NC don't care about sides because they hate anyone who isn't them. You didn't provide any other argument, so I used the exact same logic to argue no role cares about sides either, which is obviously wrong. Your argument was just bad, I didn't strawman it.
Also, saying mafia and coven are the sides isn't really an argument, since it's subjective. I say NK, coven and NC (except pirates) are THE sides too.

MysticMismagius wrote:Ranked isn't the only mode that exists or matters.

I never said that.
However, if we are talking about a role's alignement, we are talking about balance, and if we're talking about balance, we can't use all any as an example.

MysticMismagius wrote:What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.

Yes, I think all NE should be unable to work with town at all, because it would make the NE slot less swingy. And I already said most NE are supposed to be anti-town (read my other replies). It's not like witches are the only NE who is anti-town.
I also don't get why the chances of witches spawning matter at all, since they have the same chances of spawning as any other NE role.

Duckferno wrote:We're talking about Achievements here.. But regarding both "statements", I agree with Brilliand that anything with 'evil' in the name of the group is considered harmful to town, maybe even the general group of Neutral.

Yes, this is getting off-topic.

If you want to keep talking about this, we should PM each other or just make another thread.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby CapWarrior2 » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:44 pm

I know im really late (About 3 years) But i have a feeling why this wasn't added. Achievements are not meant to encourage good game play, they are meant for random and strange moments that you can remember by in your achievements. Although one thing that should be added is getting the achievements at the end of the game. I see nothing wrong with that, or just certain achievements like the medium ones. Looped achievements, ahhhhhhh idk. This would be a weird thing to add and make it easy to farm up MP which IMO should only be farmed by winning games. Yes sometimes people want to go for achievements and game throw because of it, but if this happens just report it, its why you can report them in the first place, if they dont follow the rules of the game. It is also interesting to see no one was really opposed of the idea of the rework of the achievements apart from me (or no one brought it up).

Edit: WTF THERE'S 12 PAGES oh well
Idea Index:
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Reworked Idea:
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:25 pm

It's been a year and a half since the last post, wow. Not like I mind. I just hope the thread isn't locked because of the necrobump.
The reason why this wans't added is that devs have more important things to do, though I recall some dev posting in this thread that they would consider this change (some years ago).
Personally I think achievements should be nice reminders of things you did well, instead of random things that were completely out of your control. That's why they are called "achievements". I also think they should encourage good play, obviously, but even if they don't they still shouldn't encourage bad play like many of this achievements, since this can make the gaming experience worse for others. That's the main problem with the current achievements.
Also, looped achievements come either from winning games as you said or for playing well. I see no reason not to reward players for playing well, especially if they carry their team. Money farming isn't that much of a deal, since they would be worth merit points, which are very easy to gain anyway.
Reporting players isn't enough because the system won't punish them for doing that unless they admit they want to lose. Even if they are suspended, that won't un-ruin the game they ruined. It's better to prevent this scenarios than to just report people pointlessly.
But thanks for the answer.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:55 am

No matter what, get rid of the pirate losing 10 duels in a game, BMG.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:36 pm

Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:What you put in parentheses under Exe, plus this implies that you think all NE roles should be unable to work with Town at ALL, like Witch. Which goes back to what I said in my first comment, Witch should not be held as the standard for NE roles. It's not quite like the others, and it doesn't even exist half the time.


The word "evil" implies that the role is anti-town. Anything labeled "evil" should generally be harmful to town, even if not explicitly required to make town lose to get its win.

I personally consider Jester to be "core" NE role, but there's something obviously wrong about the role with the goal to "trick town into lynching it" not necessarily posing a problem for town if they fall for the trick and lynch the Jester.



Imo Witch is the core NE role. Witch is so different from the other Neutral Evils that in Classic, Jester and Executioner should be moved to a "Neutral Lynching" section, and Neutral Evil should have one or 2 more roles added to it that have the "Live to see the Town lose" win condition.
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Re: Achievement rework. (Added petition, please vote)

Postby Brilliand » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:25 am

DiamondRanger8 wrote:Imo Witch is the core NE role. Witch is so different from the other Neutral Evils that in Classic, Jester and Executioner should be moved to a "Neutral Lynching" section, and Neutral Evil should have one or 2 more roles added to it that have the "Live to see the Town lose" win condition.


Yes, I've since been convinced of this position by arguments in other threads.

(Except that this is the first I've heard of a "Neutral Lynching" category - the last version of this proposal I saw had them being moved into Neutral Chaos.)
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby OreCreeper » Thu Dec 17, 2020 8:11 am

Joacgroso wrote:What do you think about "play in a game where no one submitted a name"? Would that be a good idea?

That probably isn't a good idea, because people would just get mad at whoever didn't follow the "no name theme" and target them.
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Descender » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:02 am

no bumpino pleasearino
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:06 am

Yeah, people might get targeted, but is it really the achievement's fault? The achievement only encourages players to randomize their names, not to take revenge on people who don't. And this is something that already happens when people use themes. People who harass other players because they don't follow the themes can be reported for harassment.

Helicooler wrote:no bumpino pleasearino

What's the problem with bumping? I still think achievements should be reworked, and I wasn't the one who bumped it.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Descender » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:07 am

OreCreeper wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:What do you think about "play in a game where no one submitted a name"? Would that be a good idea?

That probably isn't a good idea, because people would just get mad at whoever didn't follow the "no name theme" and target them.

also it goes without saying but thats not allowed
not that youd get banned for that, because no one reports it
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:10 am

If 2 people didn't follow the theme and died because of that, they might report the lynchers out of spite. It doesn't sound very unlikely to me.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Descender » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:15 am

Joacgroso wrote:If 2 people didn't follow the theme and died because of that, they might report the lynchers out of spite. It doesn't sound very unlikely to me.

ive been in lobbies like this, it doesnt happen.
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:29 am

If not even the lynched players are mad enough to report the offenders, is it really that bad?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby Descender » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:30 am

Joacgroso wrote:If not even the lynched players are mad enough to report the offenders, is it really that bad?

nah, not really
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Re: Achievement rework.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:07 pm

So last reply was probably a year ago, and I hope the post isnt locked, but I was about to make an achievement suggestions post and its better to say it here


Btw I support this 100%

Some other ideas


1, remove exe achievement "patiente jackass"
Change it for "you were not there!"
-Get your target lynched after they shot/rbed/transed you (only posible with a vigi/esc/trans target)

2 Vigi achievement: "Hocus-Pocus"
-Kill the holder of the necronomicon

"You shouldnt have joined them"
-Kill the traitor

"I knew it!"
-Shoot a consort after they prevented you from shooting

3 Vet achievement
"You come with me!"
-Kill a werewolf or juggernaut

"Lead cure"
-Kill the plaguebearer

"Heros over corrupts cops"
-Kill a traitor vigilante (loop) (also given to bodyguard)

"Wrong time!"
-Win a 1v1 against a killing role

Clean your own blood!
-Kill a mafioso/godfather and a janitor on the same night

4 trans
"Silence, silencer!"
-Make someone blackmail themselves

"Displacement inmunity"
-Transport a witch and a consort into yourself in the same game


5 retri
"Evil clone!"
-Use a vigilante to kill a necromancer

6 Godfather/mafioso
"Just at time!"
Win a 1v1 against a veteran who had 1 or more alerts left

7 Serial killer
"Too late!"
Be in a 1v1 against a escort after being cautious against their roleblock

"I have the knife"
Kill an ambusher (this one is because ambusher also has a knife


8 GA
"Ummm..."
-Win without becoming survivor when your target loses [b]this one is suposed to be gotten in VIP (although it can be gotten in all any with a stalemate or a draw), but it may encourage bad plays

9 Witch/CL
"Friendly fire on"
-Control a bodyguard into killing a vigilante



Thoughs?
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