1.6 ranked fixes

[SofiaShe]

So I read into more details your role suggestions
-about the spy, if I would rank my town roles(which I did but didn't post yet) spy went on the 13 place after vampire hunter and sheriff so let him to read mafia chat stil
About the reti I am against his change I think it's will be just too complicated, same with can't revive WW targets
Arsonists role block immunity ok but not witch, don't nerf witch more then it is now
Amnesiac maybe let him choose mafionse, GF as well?
Jailor-BodyGuard was ok if we were on 1.4 but now GF always claims BG and arso so I say change it to doctor like the Mayor
With all other suggestions I agree by 100%

[randomguyhavingfun]

Well the spy doesn't let Mafia cooperate as much as they should be able to so for this reason he is nerfed like that.
I have removed the can't revive ww targets part for the retri. The change is meant to make him claimable to scum and nerf him as he is currently really powerfull. It may be complicated but I think it is needed.
Alright I will take the control immunity out of the op.
Nice idea for the amnesiac but what would they become? Mafioso?
Well the bodygaurd is more powerfull than the doctor and the Doctor can already not heal the mayor so I don't think this is fair.

[SofiaShe]

Well the spy doesn't let Mafia cooperate as much as they should be able to so for this reason he is nerfed like that.
I have removed the can't revive ww targets part for the retri. The change is meant to make him claimable to scum and nerf him as he is currently really powerfull. It may be complicated but I think it is needed.
Alright I will take the control immunity out of the op.
Nice idea for the amnesiac but what would they become? Mafioso?
Well the bodygaurd is more powerfull than the doctor and the Doctor can already not heal the mayor so I don't think this is fair.

Well for the Amnesiac we can let him remember mafionse if there is no one like this and if there is mafionse he may get random mafia role cause it's almost impossible for amnesiac to submit into the Mafia now
They are really strong but there problem is you giving BG auto confirm, invest results are saying BG GF or Arso which all are NS to sheriff so unless the BodyGuard was reviewed he wouldn't be trusted like an doc that alerdy healed someone, also think about that, jailor:role, GF:BodyGuard jailor : then what is my name? GF: srry I didn't check I will tomorrow , two days after jailor: well? GF: ):. and this is for the good case most of this will happen worst on trial after invest result claime

[randomguyhavingfun]

no bg wont be confirmed. he will still be able to target jailor just not protect him. you will visit the jailor and not get any special message but if he is attacked you will not protect him. this a nerf to both of them and makes it easier to claim bg and harder to reveal as jailor. as for the amnesiac turning him to random mafia could end up chaotic so what about consigliere?

[SofiaShe]

no bg wont be confirmed. he will still be able to target jailor just not protect him. you will visit the jailor and not get any special message but if he is attacked you will not protect him. this a nerf to both of them and makes it easier to claim bg and harder to reveal as jailor. as for the amnesiac turning him to random mafia could end up chaotic so what about consigliere?

Oh ok I understand that now well then it's ok, and what I say if there is mafionse you may turn into mafionse, however only one amnesiac can do it and he will become the GF instead, should have added achievement as well"turn to the leader- become the new GodFather

[randomguyhavingfun]

Ok the amnesiac change has been added thanks.

[randomguyhavingfun]

By the way since a lot of people have not understood how bodygaurd not protecting jailor works both here and in other threads I'll edit it in so we can avoid misunderstandings.

[SofiaShe]

This is literally the best suggestion on this forum at all ways buy BMG didn't take an look, anyway I added this into my signature and maybe post it's on role ideas where people are active?

[randomguyhavingfun]

This is literally the best suggestion on this forum at all ways buy BMG didn't take an look, anyway I added this into my signature and maybe post it's on role ideas where people are active?

Well this is a suggestion pertly aimed towards ranked as a mode so it doesn't really belong in role ideas. It does have a lot of changes but I thought it is better of here. I could create a post in role ideas specifically for the role changes but that would be hijacking. Anyway I'm glad you liked my suggestions.

[Michael22omega]

So BMG has confirmed that there will be changes to ranked in 1. 6 . I am by no way a pro but I enjoy playing ranked and I would really like it to be balanced to as large extend as possible . That's why I decided to point some things that I think Need fixes in ranked and suggest possible solutions to them.

1 ELO


I think we can all agree that the current ELO system is broken. There are numerous threads concerning how it should be distributed so I will not talk about that. I have fairly low ELO and sometimes I see people with 1600 or something get in games of my ELO ( about 1100 ). This is bad from many angles as players may not play with others in their level of skill. Better players with higher ELO also see town win more often since more players are familiar with tactics like scumreading and they can strategies better due to experience both of which mainly although the not exclusively help town members. A solution I have found is decreasing the number of town and adding more neutral and mafia as well as more randoms. Unfortunately this could prove too overwhelming for lower ELO players like me as town wins may become very rare with such a change. To fix both of these problems I would suggest having ranks according to ELO with each rank differing in its role list. I would say 2 or if the ranked player base rises more maybe 3 ranks . Players il not be able to play with others that have a different rank, they will be in different queues.I can definitely Agree with that



2 role list

The current role list gives minimum claim space to the scum roles. It is no secret it has to b change and since I addressed the ranks previously I will make a and b rank role lists, these definitely need tweaks but as a base idea I think they help balance the game:

B. Investigator
Jailor
Town investigative
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia deceptive
Mafia support
Neutral evil
Neutral killing
Random neutral




A. Jailor
Town protective
Town investigative
Town killing
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign
Not so sure, Town usually include to much game throwers , i believe that with 4 maf each game every small RS of vig will get town to lost the game which happens on like 25% of the games


3 Role balanching

There are some town roles that are not only powerfull but insta confirming as well. These take claim space away from evils and lead the town which is an effective strategy. These roles after 1.5 are mayor/jailor/retributionist/transporter/ veteran
. Some suggest that the town power alignment is added but I firmly disagree as this would essentially guarantee town a powerfull and insta confirming role as well as beeing swingy and taking claim space away. So we must now either nerf them or create evil counterparts and since the first one is easier I will try and do that:

Veteran: death note removed( can still confirm himself but usually at the cost of a dead townie )Agree
Transporter: transports give no notificationAgree
Mayor: can stay as it is maybe reduce his vote to 2 but even if not it is no big deal.Agree
Retributionist: dies and disguises the revived as himself, no feedback notification. ( makes it not confirmable unless he revived a mayor or something, allows it to be claimed and doesn't put the mafia one night back. The only con is it becomes super boring to play as ) Nope disagree Ret is suck to play alredy
Jailor: death note removed, can now not be protected by a bodyguard ( makes a jailor think twice before revealing and makes bodyguard more close to Doctor in terms of power )( not protecting jailor means that the bodygaurd will be able to target the jailor normally and will visit him if he does but won't save him if he is attacked)I think giving him 2 excuse will fit that better

We would also have to make spy unable to read mafia chat so they can actually strategies at night rather than trollling.No, Just no Spy is UP i can confirm myself neutrally with actions as any town role i don't want to be useless town

Doctor: healed targets now show up as immune. Makes Doctor more easy to be claimed and gives night immune roles a tad bit more coverageAgree

Now there is more roles that need balanching in mafia and neutral:
Disguiser should get a buff. It isn't my idea but I think showing the will of the dead avatar would work better.

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, can now remember werewolf and mafioso and godfather If there is a mafioso amnesiac becomes godfather if not he becomes mafioso.Basically allowing him not to confirm himself and making it easier to remember evils. Werewolf also needs that buff

Witch: wins automatically if all town is eliminated while she is alive. No reason to have her lose in the crossfire between mafia and nk.No, this is not the kind of buff that witch need

Consort: consorts targets now cannot be transported and the consort may target other mafia members without roleblocking them. This should help buff the consort as he is now basically a mafia escort.Agree

Forger: I believe giving him a forged will icon where the date note should be would make it easier for everyone. Optionally we could also have him get acces to his targets will.Agree i guess

Framer: since he really is useless against all other roles excpet the investigator and sheriff i have though of some buffs to allow him to fooll all town investigatives and be more efficient
1 framed targets will visit the mafias targe alongside the mafia killing roleThat's great actually
2 framers visit cannot b seen by a spy, if the framer doesnt pick a target that night the spy will not be able to se any visitsNo
3 can now frame mafia members to make thm appear as innocent to the sheriffthat's also cool

Survivor: vests can now protect from werewolf and arsonists ignites but vest number is reduced to 2. Allowing him to protect himself while taking away two vests so evils ca pressure him moresounds fair

Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunnity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout.I think Burtal kill should be instead of Normal kill one night, and will be choosed by sun Icon because 2 kills per time is OP but if we give him one time piece immunity without afraiding..
4 if you stay at home at night you wil kill any investigatives that visit you
including sheriff and LO?

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
1 dousing now extends the draw countingAgree
2 when igniting you are roleblock immune Agree
3 jailor can no longer protect someone from ignitionI think this should be douse, not igniting if you ignite and jailor put you in jail you wasn't in the house for the fire time.. but when douse the arso could still put Gas on your house
4 you can now see who is doused through a box list
5, My own if the jailor is set on fire his jailed target will also die

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteranNo
- a doctor/bodygurd will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original targetNo
- people killed by the werewolf have no willsNo
WereWolf need a claim space not killing buff



That's all I'm overall super excited for all the promised changes in 1.6 and I hope that if these are added ranked will be balanced to a large extend.

[randomguyhavingfun]

Yeah a thrower could easily make town lose but I think instead of changing the list to allow town to recover from gamethrowers we should try banning throwers altogether.

Ret does suck to play as but that doesn't mean he isn't really powerfull.

Well while nerfing jailor to 2 executes would be an effective nerf I don think that the problem is that he kills ( he Is town killing after all ). What I am trying to avoid is jailor revailing ( if he is fake then the real one will execute him so it's not jard to believe him ) and then doing what mayor used to do. Sure it doesn't happen too often but with te other roles nerfed and the rolelist making VFR rather ineffective jailors may be tempted to start doing this frequently. So as a measure I take some protection away.

I don't think spy is UP. He can see mafia visits and whispers and confirms himself easily. And he would still do all that. Only difference beeing mafia can use their chat.

Yeah witch may need another buff but I can't come up with anything. So I thought I might as well do something like that.

Again if spy sees the framer he is useless. Maybe the later part is too powerfull but I think the first one is needed. Of course I can't be right about everything.

Actually that's kind of how it goes. You have a second button next to your regular attack button at night like the witch. If you click it you will use the brutal kill. If you use it the button will be gone. Would you prefer it as a day ability?

Including sheriffs but not los. I am thinking that this may be too powerfull though. Would appreciate some feedback on that.

Another person also suggested that I change this to dousing. They are equally effective but since it's better for the lore I guess I will change it.

That buff is actually quite interesting. Gonna add it and see what others think too.

I wouldn't call these killing buffs. A killing buff I should something that allows you to kill more efficiently and none of these really do that. The will scraping is there so staying at home isn't suicide, the attacking alerting veteran part is there so we don't have these annoying one v ones and veterans are not invincible when revealed. Now that I think of it I don't see why Doctor shouldn't heal from indirect werewolf, attacks but dying by bg as werewolf is too common since you sometimes attack a lot of people.

[Michael22omega]

Yeah a thrower could easily make town lose but I think instead of changing the list to allow town to recover from gamethrowers we should try banning throwers altogether. that's right

Ret does suck to play as but that doesn't mean he isn't really powerfull.Personally i am fine with ret but if i am going to die each time instead of my resist i just won't revive because i don't know if he is gonna be afk or something, i think ret should be actually should have buff- if you die without resisting he self revive

Well while nerfing jailor to 2 executes would be an effective nerf I don think that the problem is that he kills ( he Is town killing after all ). What I am trying to avoid is jailor revailing ( if he is fake then the real one will execute him so it's not jard to believe him ) and then doing what mayor used to do. Sure it doesn't happen too often but with te other roles nerfed and the rolelist making VFR rather ineffective jailors may be tempted to start doing this frequently. So as a measure I take some protection away.

I don't think spy is UP. He can see mafia visits and whispers and confirms himself easily. And he would still do all that. Only difference beeing mafia can use their chat.

Yeah witch may need another buff but I can't come up with anything. So I thought I might as well do something like that.

Again if spy sees the framer he is useless. Maybe the later part is too powerfull but I think the first one is needed. Of course I can't be right about everything.

Actually that's kind of how it goes. You have a second button next to your regular attack button at night like the witch. If you click it you will use the brutal kill. If you use it the button will be gone. Would you prefer it as a day ability?oh i didn't notice that

Including sheriffs but not los. I am thinking that this may be too powerfull though. Would appreciate some feedback on that.I am actually fine with that sounds cool

Another person also suggested that I change this to dousing. They are equally effective but since it's better for the lore I guess I will change it.

That buff is actually quite interesting. Gonna add it and see what others think too.

I wouldn't call these killing buffs. A killing buff I should something that allows you to kill more efficiently and none of these really do that. The will scraping is there so staying at home isn't suicide, the attacking alerting veteran part is there so we don't have these annoying one v ones and veterans are not invincible when revealed. Now that I think of it I don't see why Doctor shouldn't heal from indirect werewolf, attacks but dying by bg as werewolf is too common since you sometimes attack a lot of people.Yea well i am not quiet sure the buffs are balanced for the Town side we need to think on something better for WW buff

[randomguyhavingfun]

Well I am open to suggestions tahts for sure. But if we are going to go nerfing someone that will have to be town since towns win rates are sky high

[MamisLostHead]

So BMG has confirmed that there will be changes to ranked in 1. 6 . I am by no way a pro but I enjoy playing ranked and I would really like it to be balanced to as large an extent as possible . That's why I decided to point some things that I think Need fixes in ranked and suggest possible solutions to them.
Okay, I will try to talk about some of these suggestions, I'll try my best as someone who's not good at debating ^^'
1 ELO


I think we can all agree that the current ELO system is broken. There are numerous threads concerning how it should be distributed so I will not talk about that. I have fairly low ELO and sometimes I see people with 1600 or something get in games of my ELO ( about 1100 ). This is bad from many angles as players may not play with others in their level of skill. Better players with higher ELO also see town win more often since more players are familiar with tactics like scumreading and they can strategies better due to experience both of which mainly although the not exclusively help town members. A solution I have found is decreasing the number of town and adding more neutral and mafia as well as more randoms. Unfortunately, this could prove too overwhelming for lower ELO players like me as town wins may become very rare with such a change. To fix both of these problems I would suggest having ranks according to ELO with each rank differing in its role list. I would say 2 or if the ranked player base rises more maybe 3 ranks . Players will not be able to play with others that have a different rank, they will be in different queues. I would say I agree with different rolelists, but I'm not sure how RP will be able to help new ranked players with different rolelists...


2 role list

The current role list gives minimum claim space to the scum roles. It is no secret it has to b change and since I addressed the ranks previously I will make a and b rank role lists, these definitely need tweaks but as a base idea I think they help balance the game:

B. Investigator I'm not so sure about having two town roles to be certain in a rolelist, I feel it would be best to just revert it back to TI
Jailor
Town investigative
Town killing
Town protective
Random town 3 RT feels a bit too swingy tbh, I kind of think that reverting just one slot to TS would be better, but I'm more neutral on this idea tbh
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia deceptive
Mafia support 4 Mafia members feels way too OP. It would be too easy for mafia+NE+NB to gain majority within a few nights, best to revert one back to any
Neutral evil
Neutral killing
Random neutral The possibility of a 2nd NK is not something I can agree with tbh




A. Jailor
Town protective
Town investigative
Town killing
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia Mentioned 4 maf in the previous rolelist
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign 4 neutrals + 4 mafia means that town is good as dead by D3...



3 Role balancing

There are some town roles that are not only powerful but insta confirming as well. These take claim space away from evils and lead the town which is an effective strategy. These roles after 1.5 are mayor/jailor/retributionist/transporter/ veteran
. Some suggest that the town power alignment is added but I firmly disagree as this would essentially guarantee town a powerful and insta confirming role as well as beeing swingy and taking claim space away. So we must now either nerf them or create evil counterparts and since the first one is easier I will try and do that:

Veteran: death note removed( can still confirm himself but usually at the cost of a dead townie ) Can't disagree with this
Transporter: transports give no notification I'll stay neutral on this suggestion
Mayor: can stay as it is, maybe reduce his vote to 2 but even if not it is no big deal. Neutral
Retributionist: dies and disguises the revived as himself, no feedback notification. ( makes it not confirmable unless he revived a mayor or something, allows it to be claimed and doesn't put the mafia one night back. The only con is it becomes super boring to play as ) Ehhh, really don't know how to feel about this one...
Jailor: death note removed, can now not be protected by a bodyguard ( makes a jailor think twice before revealing and makes bodyguard more close to Doctor in terms of power )( not protecting jailor means that the bodyguard will be able to target the jailor normally and will visit him if he does but won't save him if he is attacked) I don't see the point of removing DNs, I cannot find myself agreeing with a BG being unable to protect Jailor tbh, but I guess it's not that bad an idea

We would also have to make spy unable to read mafia chat so they can actually strategies at night rather than trolling. Not that bad an idea, although I would much prefer for spy to be able to unable to see mafia visits, since consig and consorts are as good as nothing when a spy can track their visits down.

Doctor: healed targets now show up as immune. Makes Doctor more easy to be claimed and gives night immune roles a tad bit more coverage I think I can agree on this

Now there are more roles that need balancing in mafia and neutral:
Disguiser should get a buff. It isn't my idea but I think showing the will of the dead avatar would work better. I really don't know what you mean by that, but I can't agree enough about disguising either getting buffed or being replaced entirely

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, can now remember werewolf and mafioso and godfather If there is a mafioso amnesiac becomes godfather if not he becomes mafioso.Basically allowing him not to confirm himself and making it easier to remember evils. Werewolf also needs that buff I'm not so sure about being able to remember as WW or GF, but yeah, mafioso should be remember-able for amnesiac.

Witch: wins automatically if all town is eliminated while she is alive. No reason to have her lose in the crossfire between mafia and nk. I don't think that this is the buff Witch needs...

Consort: consorts targets now cannot be transported and the consort may target other mafia members without roleblocking them. This should help buff the consort as he is now basically a mafia escort. Depending on the way the first suggestion may be implemented, I can either agree or disagree with it, I guess I agree with the 2nd one if spy were still able to see mafia visits

Forger: I believe giving him a forged will icon where the death note should be would make it easier for everyone. Optionally we could also have him get acces to his targets will. Agreed.

Framer: since he really is useless against all other roles except the investigator and sheriff i have thought of some buffs to allow him to fool all town investigatives and be more efficient
1 framed targets will visit the mafia's target alongside the mafia killing role Agreed.
2 framers visit cannot b seen by a spy, if the framer doesn't pick a target that night the spy will not be able to see any visitsNeutral.
3 can now frame mafia members to make them appear as innocent to the sheriff Can't agree more on this.

Survivor: vests can now protect from werewolf and arsonists ignites but the vest number is reduced to 2. Allowing him to protect himself while taking away two vests so evils ca pressure him more Neutral.

Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severely too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune Neutral
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself I guess I can agree somewhat.
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout. Feels pretty OP, but I guess it's not that bad since it's only a one-time ability
4 if you stay at home at night you will kill any investigatives that visit you Be prepared to get lynched after said TI have you in their will, I can't agree.

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolves win rates are higher but since it isn't unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what I've come up with
1 dousing now extends the draw counting I mean, Vampire bites extend draws, no reason for arso to not be able to extend as well.
2 when igniting you are roleblock immune Sure, why not?
3 jailor can no longer protect someone from dousing Doesn't seem that far-fetched a suggestion tbh, I can agree
4 you can now see who is doused through a box list Agreed.
5 if you ignite the jailor any jailed target is also gonna be ignited Neutral
6. Bodyguard cannot protect a doused target. (I decided to add a suggestion of my own, feel free to point out any flaws in it.

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insufficient kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights Seems reasonable
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran Disagree on this tbh. I don't see a good enough reason for WW to be the only exclusion to an alerting Vet
- a bodyguard will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target Neutral on this
- people killed by the werewolf have no wills Ehh, too OP, cannot agree.



That's all I'm overall super excited for all the promised changes in 1.6 and I hope that if these are added ranked will be balanced to a large extent.

Sorry, I'm not that good at talking, so do feel free to point out any mistakes, fallacies, etc. I may have made. I honestly agree with/am neutral towards a lot of the suggestions. I do hope that BMG sees this post and takes a few things into consideration. Once again, I apologize if I repeated any statements, made fallacies, or just made mistakes, in general, ^^'

[randomguyhavingfun]

I understand that not all people have the mood to write big replies. As long as you mention reasons it's ok. I'm gonna answer in whethever color this is

Spoiler:

So BMG has confirmed that there will be changes to ranked in 1. 6 . I am by no way a pro but I enjoy playing ranked and I would really like it to be balanced to as large an extent as possible . That's why I decided to point some things that I think Need fixes in ranked and suggest possible solutions to them.
Okay, I will try to talk about some of these suggestions, I'll try my best as someone who's not good at debating ^^'
1 ELO


I think we can all agree that the current ELO system is broken. There are numerous threads concerning how it should be distributed so I will not talk about that. I have fairly low ELO and sometimes I see people with 1600 or something get in games of my ELO ( about 1100 ). This is bad from many angles as players may not play with others in their level of skill. Better players with higher ELO also see town win more often since more players are familiar with tactics like scumreading and they can strategies better due to experience both of which mainly although the not exclusively help town members. A solution I have found is decreasing the number of town and adding more neutral and mafia as well as more randoms. Unfortunately, this could prove too overwhelming for lower ELO players like me as town wins may become very rare with such a change. To fix both of these problems I would suggest having ranks according to ELO with each rank differing in its role list. I would say 2 or if the ranked player base rises more maybe 3 ranks . Players will not be able to play with others that have a different rank, they will be in different queues. I would say I agree with different rolelists, but I'm not sure how RP will be able to help new ranked players with different rolelists...yeah. I can see what you mean. Rp will have the list the players will get when entering ranked but if they move up it may be confusing


2 role list

The current role list gives minimum claim space to the scum roles. It is no secret it has to b change and since I addressed the ranks previously I will make a and b rank role lists, these definitely need tweaks but as a base idea I think they help balance the game:

B. Investigator I'm not so sure about having two town roles to be certain in a rolelist, I feel it would be best to just revert it back to TIi think I'm going a bit harsh on town so I'd just drop him in there. I may just do that though
Jailor
Town investigative
Town killing
Town protective
Random town 3 RT feels a bit too swingy tbh, I kind of think that reverting just one slot to TS would be better, but I'm more neutral on this idea tbhwell I believe town support is just a bad alignment. It's every bit as swingy as random town but harder to claim. Besides there is a lot of guys claiming. Since there are no doubles I think it should be ok
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia deceptive
Mafia support 4 Mafia members feels way too OP. It would be too easy for mafia+NE+NB to gain majority within a few nights, best to revert one back to anyany is swing king and doesn't offer much else besides every role spawning. Any claimers are usually killed either way. And since any is there 4 man mafia is there so clearly people do not mind it. Thought I might as well make this more stable. Since jailor is confirmed and nb isn't it shouldn't be too much. Jailor can kill people who do not vote and mafia cannot outright cooperate with neutrals
Neutral evil
Neutral killing
Random neutral The possibility of a 2nd NK is not something I can agree with tbhpersonally do not see why not. The possibility of 2 nks is there with the any. And 2 nks of the same kind are barely as powerfull as a mafia is because they are not organized. I think it adds some nice action to the game because now stealth nks are bound to be more common




A. Jailor
Town protective
Town investigative
Town killing
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia Mentioned 4 maf in the previous rolelist
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign 4 neutrals + 4 mafia means that town is good as dead by D3...yeah I like 4 and 3 better too. But jailor is still there's so hope is still there. And nks and mafia do not really win together



3 Role balancing

There are some town roles that are not only powerful but insta confirming as well. These take claim space away from evils and lead the town which is an effective strategy. These roles after 1.5 are mayor/jailor/retributionist/transporter/ veteran
. Some suggest that the town power alignment is added but I firmly disagree as this would essentially guarantee town a powerful and insta confirming role as well as beeing swingy and taking claim space away. So we must now either nerf them or create evil counterparts and since the first one is easier I will try and do that:

Veteran: death note removed( can still confirm himself but usually at the cost of a dead townie ) Can't disagree with this
Transporter: transports give no notification I'll stay neutral on this suggestion
Mayor: can stay as it is, maybe reduce his vote to 2 but even if not it is no big deal. Neutral
Retributionist: dies and disguises the revived as himself, no feedback notification. ( makes it not confirmable unless he revived a mayor or something, allows it to be claimed and doesn't put the mafia one night back. The only con is it becomes super boring to play as ) Ehhh, really don't know how to feel about this one...
Jailor: death note removed, can now not be protected by a bodyguard ( makes a jailor think twice before revealing and makes bodyguard more close to Doctor in terms of power )( not protecting jailor means that the bodyguard will be able to target the jailor normally and will visit him if he does but won't save him if he is attacked) I don't see the point of removing DNs, I cannot find myself agreeing with a BG being unable to protect Jailor tbh, but I guess it's not that bad an idearemoving death note is usually pointless but in some cases dn allows jailor to pinpoint suspects without revailing. But I do not think it makes much of a difference either.

We would also have to make spy unable to read mafia chat so they can actually strategies at night rather than trolling. Not that bad an idea, although I would much prefer for spy to be able to unable to see mafia visits, since consig and consorts are as good as nothing when a spy can track their visits down.consigs can mix results up and get mafiabin their results too so it is not that bad. Disguiser is hardcountered too though. Honestly I think spy should be reworked from scrap or removed but tat is a discussion for another thread

Doctor: healed targets now show up as immune. Makes Doctor more easy to be claimed and gives night immune roles a tad bit more coverage I think I can agree on this

Now there are more roles that need balancing in mafia and neutral:
Disguiser should get a buff. It isn't my idea but I think showing the will of the dead avatar would work better. I really don't know what you mean by that, but I can't agree enough about disguising either getting buffed or being replaced entirelyits mroz4ks idea. Basically th first time you disguise you show your will. The second te first victims will etc

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, can now remember werewolf and mafioso and godfather If there is a mafioso amnesiac becomes godfather if not he becomes mafioso.Basically allowing him not to confirm himself and making it easier to remember evils. Werewolf also needs that buff I'm not so sure about being able to remember as WW or GF, but yeah, mafioso should be remember-able for amnesiac.he definitely needs to remember werewolf because werewolf is weak enough already. Gf can be made or not

Witch: wins automatically if all town is eliminated while she is alive. No reason to have her lose in the crossfire between mafia and nk. I don't think that this is the buff Witch needs...but it is the one it deserves. Anyways witch needs something more powerfull but there's is more than enough threads about it already

Consort: consorts targets now cannot be transported and the consort may target other mafia members without roleblocking them. This should help buff the consort as he is now basically a mafia escort. Depending on the way the first suggestion may be implemented, I can either agree or disagree with it, I guess I agree with the 2nd one if spy were still able to see mafia visits

Forger: I believe giving him a forged will icon where the death note should be would make it easier for everyone. Optionally we could also have him get acces to his targets will. Agreed.

Framer: since he really is useless against all other roles except the investigator and sheriff i have thought of some buffs to allow him to fool all town investigatives and be more efficient
1 framed targets will visit the mafia's target alongside the mafia killing role Agreed.
2 framers visit cannot b seen by a spy, if the framer doesn't pick a target that night the spy will not be able to see any visitsNeutral.
3 can now frame mafia members to make them appear as innocent to the sheriff Can't agree more on this.

Survivor: vests can now protect from werewolf and arsonists ignites but the vest number is reduced to 2. Allowing him to protect himself while taking away two vests so evils ca pressure him more Neutral.

Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severely too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune Neutral
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself I guess I can agree somewhat.
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout. Feels pretty OP, but I guess it's not that bad since it's only a one-time ability
4 if you stay at home at night you will kill any investigatives that visit you Be prepared to get lynched after said TI have you in their will, I can't agree.fair enough

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolves win rates are higher but since it isn't unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what I've come up with
1 dousing now extends the draw counting I mean, Vampire bites extend draws, no reason for arso to not be able to extend as well.
2 when igniting you are roleblock immune Sure, why not?
3 jailor can no longer protect someone from dousing Doesn't seem that far-fetched a suggestion tbh, I can agree
4 you can now see who is doused through a box list Agreed.
5 if you ignite the jailor any jailed target is also gonna be ignited Neutral
6. Bodyguard cannot protect a doused target. (I decided to add a suggestion of my own, feel free to point out any flaws in it.nice suggestion. Silent douses is also pretty good

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insufficient kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights Seems reasonable
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran Disagree on this tbh. I don't see a good enough reason for WW to be the only exclusion to an alerting Vetyeah I can see why people may disagree but I thought it was nice
- a bodyguard will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target Neutral on this
- people killed by the werewolf have no wills Ehh, too OP, cannot agree.well without it staying in your house when ramoaging is pretty much wanting to die



That's all I'm overall super excited for all the promised changes in 1.6 and I hope that if these are added ranked will be balanced to a large extent.

Sorry, I'm not that good at talking, so do feel free to point out any mistakes, fallacies, etc. I may have made. I honestly agree with/am neutral towards a lot of the suggestions. I do hope that BMG sees this post and takes a few things into consideration. Once again, I apologize if I repeated any statements, made fallacies, or just made mistakes, in general, ^^'

[MamisLostHead]

You made some pretty good points. There's not really much to write about as a reply, because there's not really much I can disagree with at this point. Great job on the suggestions.

[randomguyhavingfun]

You made some pretty good points. There's not really much to write about as a reply, because there's not really much I can disagree with at this point. Great job on the suggestions.

Yeah I kinda have some debate experience from the forums. Thanks a lot I am glad to hear you liked my suggestions. I hope the Devs take some of them in 1.6 or maybe even a later patch

[GoldSlash]

I like the majority of the suggestions even thought ww>>arso, not the contrary. But i don't see this being applied on patchs...Just because.

[randomguyhavingfun]

I like the majority of the suggestions even thought ww>>arso, not the contrary. But i don't see this being applied on patchs...Just because.

It is beyond any doubt that not all my ideas will be taken into account. Actually most of them will probably be ignored. The best a thread like this can really do is attract the Devs attention and make them consider a couple of the Changes proposed. But the most likely outcome is to be ignored. Am I not optimistic

[GoldSlash]

I like the majority of the suggestions even thought ww>>arso, not the contrary. But i don't see this being applied on patchs...Just because.

It is beyond any doubt that not all my ideas will be taken into account. Actually most of them will probably be ignored. The best a thread like this can really do is attract the Devs attention and make them consider a couple of the Changes proposed. But the most likely outcome is to be ignored. Am I not optimistic

Exactly, me neither. However i really like the suggestion and really wanting to see them on next patches. We need to make the gun more fun for everyone and balanced, its hard but we can.

[HODORrr]

1 ELO

supported, but i dont support changing role list that dramaticly, thats like changing ranked into a whole new game mode

2 role list

more any/trs can be fun, but will impact balance hugely. cant just throw in some more randoms, then no one can bust fake claims anymore.

3 Role balanching

i think buffing the other roles is better than nerfing town, its hard to nerf town, it removes all the specialties about them

Veteran: death note removed naaa thats the whole fun of the vet,
Transporter: can cause huge confusion, dont agree
Mayor: its ok as it is, hes not well protected, he cant wisper. they will get rid of him soon enough.
Retributionist: i dont know, too complicated to judge haha
Jailor: i dont see the problem with a jailor comfirming. its not like he needs a deathnote for confirmation. no one is gonna have the balls to cc a jailor.
hes comfirmed as soon as he likes it.

maybe you can just nerf the jailor in other ways if you want to make him equal. but isnt that the fun of the roles aswell, that they are not equal?
for example maffioso is a noob while the gf is so much more powerfull. i think thats fun to sometimes get a carry role and sometimes a supportive role.
people complain about town having higher winrates, but town are also more players. i think its ok if town has higher winrates as long elo is less awarded for town.
then it really gets fun to win as maff/nk. as long as town is not winning too often, its ok to have a slight bit increased winrate i think.

spy: naaa maff chat reading is nice. but i like the goal of the idea. maybe you can make maffia wispers to other maffias, invisible to the spy

Doctor: supported

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, naaa i think thats fun, how epic is the dubble amnesiac message, the whole town poops their pants.
the rest sounds good, i dont know tho too complicated.

Witch: i think she will actualy get targeted by their allies even more, knowing what fked up troll things a witch can do, after all town is already dead anyway.
better just give her a reason to stay nice till the end haha

Forger: supported

Framer:
1 supported
2 supported
3 too overpowered

Survivor: supported

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 supported
2 supported
3 supported
4 i dont know

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
1 supported
2 naaa
3 supported
4 supported
5 naaa thats just confusing

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- not supported
- ?
- supported

great ideas overal

[Ogeezalo]

3 Role balanching
Veteran: death note removed( can still confirm himself but usually at the cost of a dead townie )
Transporter: transports give no notification
He doesn't.
Mayor: can stay as it is maybe reduce his vote to 2 but even if not it is no big deal.
Retributionist: dies and disguises the revived as himself, no feedback notification. ( makes it not confirmable unless he revived a mayor or something, allows it to be claimed and doesn't put the mafia one night back. The only con is it becomes super boring to play as )
I think ret is fine.
Jailor: death note removed, can now not be protected by a bodyguard ( makes a jailor think twice before revealing and makes bodyguard more close to Doctor in terms of power )( not protecting jailor means that the bodygaurd will be able to target the jailor normally and will visit him if he does but won't save him if he is attacked)
No, jailor needs to explain why the executed a player. Jailor should be able to be protected by bodyguard, so no.
We would also have to make spy unable to read mafia chat so they can actually strategies at night rather than trollling.
Might be hard now, considering that noobs overwhelmingly voted to keep maf chat visible.
Doctor: healed targets now show up as immune. Makes Doctor more easy to be claimed and gives night immune roles a tad bit more coverage
That is a thing, I am 97% certain.
Now there is more roles that need balanching in mafia and neutral:
Disguiser should get a buff. It isn't my idea but I think showing the will of the dead avatar would work better.

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, can now remember werewolf and mafioso and godfather If there is a mafioso amnesiac becomes godfather if not he becomes mafioso. Basically allowing him not to confirm himself and making it easier to remember evils. Werewolf also needs that buff
Don't like the silent remembering, making it public can help remove fake surv claims.
Witch: wins automatically if all town is eliminated while she is alive. No reason to have her lose in the crossfire between mafia and nk.
I love this. Perfect.
Consort: consorts targets now cannot be transported and the consort may target other mafia members without roleblocking them. This should help buff the consort as he is now basically a mafia escort.
Escort/Consort doesn't really need a buff/counter to transporter.
Forger: I believe giving him a forged will icon where the death note should be would make it easier for everyone. Optionally we could also have him get acces to his targets will.
Like the second part a lot.
Framer: since he really is useless against all other roles excpet the investigator and sheriff i have though of some buffs to allow him to fooll all town investigatives and be more efficient
1 framed targets will visit the mafias targe alongside the mafia killing role
Sure. But it should show that he visits the person he actually visited too, so and can be proven he was framed.
2 framers visit cannot b seen by a spy, if the framer doesnt pick a target that night the spy will not be able to se any visits
That would make framer a little too OP.
3 can now frame mafia members to make thm appear as innocent to the sheriff
That wouldn't be that helpful, considering that most (except godfather) would show up as mafia anyway. Also ruins the point of the achievement. People would also gamethrow by framing godfather.
Survivor: vests can now protect from werewolf and arsonists ignites but vest number is reduced to 2. Allowing him to protect himself while taking away two vests so evils ca pressure him more
Yeah sure, I like this.
Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT
arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
1 dousing now extends the draw counting
2 when igniting you are roleblock immune
3 jailor can no longer protect someone from dousing
4 you can now see who is doused through a box list
5 if you ingnite the jailor any jailed target is also gonna be ignited
I like these.

[randomguyhavingfun]

1 ELO

supported, but i dont support changing role list that dramaticly, thats like changing ranked into a whole new game modethe purpose of ranked in the game is solely to provide a competitive and balanche environment. Not to introduce a specific rolelist

2 role list

more any/trs can be fun, but will impact balance hugely. cant just throw in some more randoms, then no one can bust fake claims anymore.busting fakeclaims is still possible just a lot harder. I honestly think that using the rolelist to determine whether a claim is legit or not is the last way people should follow. Without this ability hopefully the town will now have to cooperate with each other by using their abilities to test roles, proofread people's wills to find anything that doesn't match with the games flow and the actions of other roles or judge someone by their attitude during the game ( e.g. Not voting suspects up). I think that to a game like TOS these aspects are more fitting and fun than checking the rolelist to see if the role can match or not and this is what tpmore randoms should encourage

3 Role balanching

i think buffing the other roles is better than nerfing town, its hard to nerf town, it removes all the specialties about themi have tried both as you see. Problem with buffing other roles exclusively is that It often turns into an overbuff. Besides since townies have superior numbers so they united abilities come from more sources which means that all these sources should be weaker than other factions

Veteran: death note removed naaa thats the whole fun of the vet, the fun of the vet is to write :my name is cotton mother now get spammed with Lenny faces? That is what keeps the vet so powerfull because the instant they kill someone they are safe for the rest of the match and unclaimable
Transporter: can cause huge confusion, dont agreeit won't be anymore confusion that it is currently. The difference I see the transporter will have to communicate with the town and be wary of accuses
Mayor: its ok as it is, hes not well protected, he cant wisper. they will get rid of him soon enough.
Retributionist: i dont know, too complicated to judge haha
Jailor: i dont see the problem with a jailor comfirming. its not like he needs a deathnote for confirmation. no one is gonna have the balls to cc a jailor.
hes comfirmed as soon as he likes it.and that's bad because he can do a whisper game and we are back on that shit. My aim is to make him more scared to reveal so he doesn't do it often

maybe you can just nerf the jailor in other ways if you want to make him equal. but isnt that the fun of the roles aswell, that they are not equal?roles should be somewhat equal. But doing it to the jailor is not possible, he is simply too powerfull
for example maffioso is a noob while the gf is so much more powerfull. i think thats fun to sometimes get a carry role and sometimes a supportive role.mafiosos role is to assist the gf so the mafia isn't rekt when the gf is jailed and tp offer another gf when the original dies. The swap between supportive and mainstream roles is fun and I am not going to get rid of it, but make sure everyone can offer something
people complain about town having higher winrates, but town are also more players. i think its ok if town has higher winrates as long elo is less awarded for town.i can't draw a connection here. Town has more players so town must win 4/5 games? Or even win more games? Why? It's not ok because one faction is fighting with the odds and others against them.
then it really gets fun to win as maff/nk. as long as town is not winning too often, its ok to have a slight bit increased winrate i think.having a 5% more than mafia isn't a problem. Currently though it has a 40% higher than mafia and 70% over nks

spy: naaa maff chat reading is nice. but i like the goal of the idea. maybe you can make maffia wispers to other maffias, invisible to the spythat means that when mafia A whispers to mafia B the spy cannot see their whispers and realizes they are both mafia

Doctor: supported

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, naaa i think thats fun, how epic is the dubble amnesiac message, the whole town poops their pants.this makes the amnesiac more likely to pick town though and it gets rid of the surprise element
the rest sounds good, i dont know tho too complicated.

Witch: i think she will actualy get targeted by their allies even more, knowing what fked up troll things a witch can do, after all town is already dead anyway.
better just give her a reason to stay nice till the end haha

Forger: supported

Framer:
1 supported
2 supported
3 too overpowered

Survivor: supported

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 supported
2 supported
3 supported
4 i dont knowi think that may be op too

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
1 supported
2 naaa
3 supported
4 supported
5 naaa thats just confusing

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- not supported
- ?
- supported

great ideas overal

Thanks for the feedback friend.

I be decided to make the rolelists more town favored as I am putting way too many evil voters. I will be removing a neutral from each and making him town. I am not sure about my picks of using a second town killing and a second town investigative so make sure to leave feedback on that