1.6 ranked fixes

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1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:56 am

So BMG has confirmed that there will be changes to ranked in 1. 6 . I am by no way a pro but I enjoy playing ranked and I would really like it to be balanced to as large extend as possible . That's why I decided to point some things that I think Need fixes in ranked and suggest possible solutions to them.

1 ELO


I think we can all agree that the current ELO system is broken. There are numerous threads concerning how it should be distributed so I will not talk about that. I have fairly low ELO and sometimes I see people with 1600 or something get in games of my ELO ( about 1100 ). This is bad from many angles as players may not play with others in their level of skill. Better players with higher ELO also see town win more often since more players are familiar with tactics like scumreading and they can strategies better due to experience both of which mainly although the not exclusively help town members. A solution I have found is decreasing the number of town and adding more neutral and mafia as well as more randoms. Unfortunately this could prove too overwhelming for lower ELO players like me as town wins may become very rare with such a change. To fix both of these problems I would suggest having ranks according to ELO with each rank differing in its role list. I would say 2 or if the ranked player base rises more maybe 3 ranks . Players il not be able to play with others that have a different rank, they will be in different queues.



2 role list

The current role list gives minimum claim space to the scum roles. It is no secret it has to b change and since I addressed the ranks previously I will make a and b rank role lists, these definitely need tweaks but as a base idea I think they help balance the game:

B. Investigator
Jailor
Town investigative
Town killing
Town protective
Town killing
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia deceptive
Mafia support
Neutral killing
Random neutral




A. Jailor
Town protective
Town investigative
Town investigative
Town killing
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral



3 Role balanching

There are some town roles that are not only powerfull but insta confirming as well. These take claim space away from evils and lead the town which is an effective strategy. These roles after 1.5 are mayor/jailor/retributionist/transporter/ veteran
. Some suggest that the town power alignment is added but I firmly disagree as this would essentially guarantee town a powerfull and insta confirming role as well as beeing swingy and taking claim space away. So we must now either nerf them or create evil counterparts and since the first one is easier I will try and do that:

Veteran: death note removed( can still confirm himself but usually at the cost of a dead townie )
Transporter: transports give no notification
Mayor: can stay as it is maybe reduce his vote to 2 but even if not it is no big deal.
Retributionist: dies and disguises the revived as himself, no feedback notification. ( makes it not confirmable unless he revived a mayor or something, allows it to be claimed and doesn't put the mafia one night back. The only con is it becomes super boring to play as )
Jailor: death note removed, can now not be protected by a bodyguard ( makes a jailor think twice before revealing and makes bodyguard more close to Doctor in terms of power )( not protecting jailor means that the bodygaurd will be able to target the jailor normally and will visit him if he does but won't save him if he is attacked)

We would also have to make spy unable to read mafia chat so they can actually strategies at night rather than trollling.

Doctor: healed targets now show up as immune. Makes Doctor more easy to be claimed and gives night immune roles a tad bit more coverage

Now there is more roles that need balanching in mafia and neutral:
Disguiser should get a buff. It isn't my idea but I think showing the will of the dead avatar would work better.

Amnesiac: no longer gives town wide notification, can now remember werewolf and mafioso and godfather If there is a mafioso amnesiac becomes godfather if not he becomes mafioso.Basically allowing him not to confirm himself and making it easier to remember evils. Werewolf also needs that buff

Witch: wins automatically if all town is eliminated while she is alive. No reason to have her lose in the crossfire between mafia and nk.

Consort: consorts targets now cannot be transported and the consort may target other mafia members without roleblocking them. This should help buff the consort as he is now basically a mafia escort.

Forger: I believe giving him a forged will icon where the death note should be would make it easier for everyone. Optionally we could also have him get acces to his targets will.

Framer: since he really is useless against all other roles excpet the investigator and sheriff i have though of some buffs to allow him to fooll all town investigatives and be more efficient
1 framed targets will visit the mafias targe alongside the mafia killing role
2 framers visit cannot b seen by a spy, if the framer doesnt pick a target that night the spy will not be able to se any visits
3 can now frame mafia members to make thm appear as innocent to the sheriff

Survivor: vests can now protect from werewolf and arsonists ignites but vest number is reduced to 2. Allowing him to protect himself while taking away two vests so evils ca pressure him more

Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunnity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout.
4 if you stay at home at night you wil kill any investigatives that visit you

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
1 dousing now extends the draw counting
2 when igniting you are roleblock immune
3 jailor can no longer protect someone from dousing
4 you can now see who is doused through a box list
5 if you ingnite the jailor any jailed target is also gonna be ignited

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran
- a bodyguard will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target
- people killed by the werewolf have no wills



That's all I'm overall super excited for all the promised changes in 1.6 and I hope that if these are added ranked will be balanced to a large extend.
Last edited by randomguyhavingfun on Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:10 am, edited 16 times in total.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:04 am

Right now, there can be up to eight self confirming Town roles, and the confirmed Jailor guarantees one. Your A role list can make it so there can be up to six and list be would limit it to five. This is better, but still too swingy. Town Power would limit that to ONE. There would be no swing at all.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby IamTrusty » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:43 am

Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:58 am

alex1234321 wrote:Right now, there can be up to eight self confirming Town roles, and the confirmed Jailor guarantees one. Your A role list can make it so there can be up to six and list be would limit it to five. This is better, but still too swingy. Town Power would limit that to ONE. There would be no swing at all.


explain me exactly how would a or b list have 6 and 5 self confirming townies? lets see all the possible town roles in town of salem with the changes i have made in my point number 3:

mayor yes this is self confirming obviously.

jailor : self confirming but im not sure if jailors would want to reveal all that much in either of my lists. list b has a little less than 60% chance for a doctor to roll and this is you only way of protection against evils. jailor has about 40-50% chance to roll. the chances that both of these are together are quiet high but not nearly as much as with the current list. and even if you do roll together a doctor will probably die fast enough. you would want 2 docs to roll in to be safe enough to reveal. the chances of a second doctor rolling in are 3/19 in list b and that is assuming that there is a doctor in tp. getting 2 random docs is very rare. so basically there is a serious risk in revealing. a lot of jailors will not reveal today so i imagine these changes will make it rather rare. in my A list these chances are a little higher for both of them but still. This would only matter in a late game senario in which jailor will probably be confirmed but till late game everyones claims will be known so it would hardly matter.

retributonist: currently easy to confirm but with my change it is very hard as you would want to revive a jailor or mayor in order to be auto confirming. the chances that mayor and retributonist rolling together especially in A list are too fricking low to even consider and the chances that you revive the jailor are decent but not high enough to be called out as a problem. that is if they die before you as dying early is also a thing. This could potentially create claims for the evils so lets say you are mafioso and vigilante and veteran are dead. town will probably lynch you if you straight up claim vigilante but you can say that you were a retributonist who revived the vigilante. since no notification will be give ret isnt confirming in most cases.

bodygaurd: impossible to confirm

doctor: very hard and risky to confirm

vigilante: can confirm but there is a huge risk most of the times

veteran: can confirm but needs at least one town to die to do so

escort: possible consort

spy: possible blackmailer

lookout: very good evil claim, medium confirmation abilities

medium: almost impossible to confirm

investigator: possible consigliere/executioner

transporter: very hard to confirm

sheriff: possible every single scum role and hard to confirm

vampire hunter: sigh.... this wont be in b it has a decent chance to roll in a in which it has a mediocore ability to confirm itself

so we would have to roll 6 mayors/jailors/rets revivng one of these 2 guys. yeah maybe our vet can kill the invest and we will have him as well.and maybe in a a vh can kill a vampire early on though i doubt that he willl be able to claim as since he has a chance to roll in he may be used by scum as well. We may have up to 4 and if we really pressure it 5 ones in a and 4 ones in b but chances are there will not be more that 2 in either of them. regarding the randoms giving space i dont think this will effect evils as much.


of course there is swing. Town power may be able to reduce it but there will be swing if there is claimspace. Lok at all any, best claimspace ever and 1/15 games is more like chaotic custom. its basically swing for claimspace which must be balanched. lets say we get town power in b instead of investigator town power ret with the current abilities and the randoms and tp and any all roll bodygaurd while tk becomes vet and ti is lookout. ts falls to trans. that is just swing personified. there is a chance of it happening though. does that mean we will have to address town mediocore/weakness/strength/power to counteract it? i think not. i have just gotten out of a triple town power roles game and mafia won. they killed ret before he revived and bg killed the vigilante. we would even have to go to the mafia. consig + consort is broken. so is double framer + a bunch of sheriffs. town power is just a bandage that found a lot of support.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:01 am

IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.

well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby mdb1023 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:26 am

I like your role lost suggestion, and I do agree that there needs to be more claimspace. However, I think having three random town slots and an any, or even four random town slots, is a bit too much. We want more claimspace, but we don't want too much, either, otherwise it becomes way too chaotic. I also agree that some roles are too powerful, but if we nerf the town too much, everyone will complain that town is too weak. There's a delicate balance that would need to be found.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby IamTrusty » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:52 am

randomguyhavingfun wrote:
IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.

well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often

Evils team up very frequently when they have majority it's generally known to just not vote. Because even if evils have to fight eachother. Beating town is the highest priority for both of them.
and surv/NE generally join that so they don't get wacked by evils for voting.

my point is, when there is no convincing killing power in town you cannot force ne/NB to vote with you. thus resulting in evils not voting when they have majority.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby Skulomania » Thu Aug 04, 2016 10:14 am

Other than maybe tweaking a few town roles that may be a bit problematic, the role-list does not need such a huge overhaul. (maybe tweak the Any and add more Random Town)

What I think this game needs badly is a new Neutral Benign Role, and one that has an equal and balanced impact on all the other alignments rather than being heavily one sided each game.

Currently the NB alignment a lot of the times acts as another Townie, and that has huge implications on town's victory. An amnesiac becoming town can prove almost devastating in the right circumstances, and also brings the mafia/NK back a night. A lot of the times, an amnesiac becoming town is heavily correlated to town's evident victory.

And the survivor also acts as a townie vote most of the time, especially early in the game, and late. Only times it will not be considered a townie is when the town lose majority, but that evidently means the town has already lost, so the survivor is meaningless to the win or loss at that point.

So yeah, with a few tweaks to existing town roles and the rolelist, and more Neutral Benign roles that are completely different to the survivor or amnesiac , would be a good start.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:06 am

In List A, Jailor can be Town Killing, and Retributionist can be Town Support. Additionally, the three Random Towns and Any can all be confirming roles that are not unique, such as Transporter. This is very unlikely, but having two or three self confirming roles would be somewhat common. In List B, Jailor can be Town Killing and all the Random Towns can be self confirming roles. I know that this is also unlikely, but like List A, it would be common to have at least two self confirming roles.

Town Power can limit this to one, depending on how it is implemented. It would need:

Town Killing roles to not have death notes
Amnesiac's remembering message to be removed
Your suggestion for Retributionist

Town Power would also have to be Mayor, Jailor, and Transporter. Transporter could be buffed so that its targets would automatically die if they attack themselves, regardless of night immunity. Retributionist would probably not work in Town Power because it can confirm revived people and any Mediums. Of course, there would also need to be other minor balancing changes, such as nerfing Jailor.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:12 pm

I would like to thank you all for giving your honest opinions. I will try to reply to them and if I think something indeed needs to be added I will edit it into the op so the Devs will hopefully notice, now let's see:

mdb1023 wrote:I like your role lost suggestion, and I do agree that there needs to be more claimspace. However, I think having three random town slots and an any, or even four random town slots, is a bit too much. We want more claimspace, but we don't want too much, either, otherwise it becomes way too chaotic. I also agree that some roles are too powerful, but if we nerf the town too much, everyone will complain that town is too weak. There's a delicate balance that would need to be found.

I guess I thought quantity makes quality a little bit huh? Yeah if there are too many randoms it does become too chaotic which should be avoided but 1 random is obviously too little. The any shouldn't matter too much as it is there simply to enable nks to be in ranked while not confirming them in the lower ELO players. Obviously these lists need tweaking and I was considering limiting it to three randoms. Do you think 3 is too much? Could I get a second opinion on this?and well town is so overpowered I don't really think tha preventing most roles from confirming themselves will make it too weak. It's overall win rate is over 50% which is ridiculous. If it was to fall to like 40 or 30 mafia would be 40-50 and nks will wins a tad bit more ( they need to be overbuffed to be fixed ). I think that with nk buffs it would be almost balanched.

IamTrusty wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:
IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.

well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often

Evils team up very frequently when they have majority it's generally known to just not vote. Because even if evils have to fight eachother. Beating town is the highest priority for both of them.
and surv/NE generally join that so they don't get wacked by evils for voting.

my point is, when there is no convincing killing power in town you cannot force ne/NB to vote with you. thus resulting in evils not voting when they have majority.


From my experience neutrals and mafia don't team up that much but I get there are different types of players. Thing is if town is 9 players it limits the neutrals numbers as 4man mafia is essentially needed. And it gets very hard for somebody else to outvote them. So I guess I confirm jailor? Confirmed jailor is powerfull though. Maybe it is needed. I'll keep in mind swapping a random for a confirmed jailor so both of these are added.

Skulomania wrote:Other than maybe tweaking a few town roles that may be a bit problematic, the role-list does not need such a huge overhaul. (maybe tweak the Any and add more Random Town)

What I think this game needs badly is a new Neutral Benign Role, and one that has an equal and balanced impact on all the other alignments rather than being heavily one sided each game.

Currently the NB alignment a lot of the times acts as another Townie, and that has huge implications on town's victory. An amnesiac becoming town can prove almost devastating in the right circumstances, and also brings the mafia/NK back a night. A lot of the times, an amnesiac becoming town is heavily correlated to town's evident victory.

And the survivor also acts as a townie vote most of the time, especially early in the game, and late. Only times it will not be considered a townie is when the town lose majority, but that evidently means the town has already lost, so the survivor is meaningless to the win or loss at that point.

So yeah, with a few tweaks to existing town roles and the rolelist, and more Neutral Benign roles that are completely different to the survivor or amnesiac , would be a good start.

I'm guessing you mean something like your polymath or my avenger. I do agree that we need a neutral benign role that can affect all factions but I do get the purpose of survivor and amnesiac. Anyway even if there was one or 2 new neutral benign roles added survivor and amnesiac would still roll so we would still be in the same situation. The neccesary changes to the role list are not that big sure but by creating random neutral and using roles according to the players play style you have a much more competitive environment and more strategy involved in the game. That is what I am trying to do. Obviously there are still flaws but I bet on the community to help with them.

alex1234321 wrote:In List A, Jailor can be Town Killing, and Retributionist can be Town Support. Additionally, the three Random Towns and Any can all be confirming roles that are not unique, such as Transporter. This is very unlikely, but having two or three self confirming roles would be somewhat common. In List B, Jailor can be Town Killing and all the Random Towns can be self confirming roles. I know that this is also unlikely, but like List A, it would be common to have at least two self confirming roles.

Town Power can limit this to one, depending on how it is implemented. It would need:

Town Killing roles to not have death notes
Amnesiac's remembering message to be removed
Your suggestion for Retributionist

Town Power would also have to be Mayor, Jailor, and Transporter. Transporter could be buffed so that its targets would automatically die if they attack themselves, regardless of night immunity. Retributionist would probably not work in Town Power because it can confirm revived people and any Mediums. Of course, there would also need to be other minor balancing changes, such as nerfing Jailor.


the role lists are meant to be implamemnted alongside the role changes which render veteran, transporter and ret hard to confirm so they should not belong in town power. This brings us to mayor and jailor. If jailor would not be able to be protected by a bodyguard jailors wouldn't really take the risk of revealing. I am not lean on having the mayor roll too often as well. This would mean the jailor is alone in town power not because it can confirm itself but rather because it is Doctor+escort+ immunity penetrating vigilante that doesn't suicide. Town power would also not prevent other confirmable townies without the changes I referred to. And I don't feel like having an extra alignment while not neccesarily needed is good since this would alter the town support roles chances of showing up and I think since town support is the swingier of the alignments and will continue to be because of the roles that fit into it there should be a lot of roles in it so every one has a low chance of rolling. Vigilante is ok with death note by the way no reason to nerf him he isn't that good anyway. The amnesiac change is needed I must agree. Amnesiac get screwed when becoming mafia or even worse nk.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby Skulomania » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:24 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:I'm guessing you mean something like your polymath or my avenger. I do agree that we need a neutral benign role that can affect all factions but I do get the purpose of survivor and amnesiac. Anyway even if there was one or 2 new neutral benign roles added survivor and amnesiac would still roll so we would still be in the same situation. The neccesary changes to the role list are not that big sure but by creating random neutral and using roles according to the players play style you have a much more competitive environment and more strategy involved in the game. That is what I am trying to do. Obviously there are still flaws but I bet on the community to help with them.


It does not have to be the Polymath or any other specific role idea, but it needs to be a role that is different from amnesiac/survivor and has a balanced and fair impact on all alignments.

And check my statistics suggestion in the tracking sticky post. What i am trying to do essentially is , as you stated in bold, that there not only needs to be new NB roles added, but also tweaks the current ones. And tweaking/changes needs to start through proper evidence, and that applies for all things, although i am specifically focused on NB.

Essentially, as long as an NB role is proven to not unfairly impact or directly correlate to an alignments victory or loss, it is perfectly viable in a ranked environment. And that is what needs to be accomplished.

And yeah i agree that there needs to be more claimspace and a few minor changes to the rolelists as you have given, but any and all changes should not involve the absolute removal of a Neutral Benign.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Aug 04, 2016 12:43 pm

Skulomania wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:I'm guessing you mean something like your polymath or my avenger. I do agree that we need a neutral benign role that can affect all factions but I do get the purpose of survivor and amnesiac. Anyway even if there was one or 2 new neutral benign roles added survivor and amnesiac would still roll so we would still be in the same situation. The neccesary changes to the role list are not that big sure but by creating random neutral and using roles according to the players play style you have a much more competitive environment and more strategy involved in the game. That is what I am trying to do. Obviously there are still flaws but I bet on the community to help with them.


It does not have to be the Polymath or any other specific role idea, but it needs to be a role that is different from amnesiac/survivor and has a balanced and fair impact on all alignments.

And check my statistics suggestion in the tracking sticky post. What i am trying to do essentially is , as you stated in bold, that there not only needs to be new NB roles added, but also tweaks the current ones. And tweaking/changes needs to start through proper evidence, and that applies for all things, although i am specifically focused on NB.

Essentially, as long as an NB role is proven to not unfairly impact or directly correlate to an alignments victory or loss, it is perfectly viable in a ranked environment. And that is what needs to be accomplished.

And yeah i agree that there needs to be more claimspace and a few minor changes to the rolelists as you have given, but any and all changes should not involve the absolute removal of a Neutral Benign.


I only used these roles as examples. I do agree that the absolute removal of neutral benign isn't an answer for various reasons. I have mainly been active in the role ideas forum and I have never seen a good survivor change. The amnesiac is easier you can just not give any notification and allow him to remember werewolf essentially encouraging him to join scum more which he will do if their win rates are going higher. The survivor is a tougher thing though and I think that there should be a survivor role so the scraping solution does not apply
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Thu Aug 04, 2016 1:11 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:B. Investigator
Town investigative
Town support
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia support
Mafia deceptive
Executioner
Neutral evil/benign
Any

Any rolling mafia means that there's five mafia which is pretty much a guaranteed win. Confirmed investigator does... nothing, really. Jailor rolling in town killing is much more powerful than vet or vig rolling there.

A. Town killing
Town protective
Town investigative
Random town
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign/chaos

Town doesn't even have majority so they automatically lose, no point going over the other many flaws.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby alex1234321 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:55 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:B. Investigator
Town investigative
Town support
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia support
Mafia deceptive
Executioner
Neutral evil/benign
Any

Any rolling mafia means that there's five mafia which is pretty much a guaranteed win. Confirmed investigator does... nothing, really. Jailor rolling in town killing is much more powerful than vet or vig rolling there.

A. Town killing
Town protective
Town investigative
Random town
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign/chaos

Town doesn't even have majority so they automatically lose, no point going over the other many flaws.

I have seen Town win 3-5-7 games. Although these might be a bit scum sided, Town would still win occasionally. From my All Any experience, Town rarely wins 6-5-4s, but often wins 7-4-4s.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:38 pm

By definition, town should have majority.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Fri Aug 05, 2016 3:49 am

alex1234321 wrote:
ICECLIMBERS wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:B. Investigator
Town investigative
Town support
Town killing
Town protective
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia support
Mafia deceptive
Executioner
Neutral evil/benign
Any

Any rolling mafia means that there's five mafia which is pretty much a guaranteed win. Confirmed investigator does... nothing, really. Jailor rolling in town killing is much more powerful than vet or vig rolling there.

A. Town killing
Town protective
Town investigative
Random town
Random town
Random town
Random town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Neutral evil
Random neutral
Neutral benign/chaos

Town doesn't even have majority so they automatically lose, no point going over the other many flaws.

I have seen Town win 3-5-7 games. Although these might be a bit scum sided, Town would still win occasionally. From my All Any experience, Town rarely wins 6-5-4s, but often wins 7-4-4s.


IamTrusty wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:
IamTrusty wrote:Uhh missing jailor there buddy. Without jailor and 4 RTs town, there's unlimited claimspace and no guaranteed town to kill off jesters (vet roll)
This seems like a heavy evil sided game.
Evils have majority after 1 night. and just not vote.

well techically there is still mafiavs nk so evils do vote. survivors and amnesiacs vote as well. evils have a majority on the current list too after N1 succesfull kill. jester and exes will also vote for obvious reasons. evils just dont team up that easily although the lists do ensure that they win more often

Evils team up very frequently when they have majority it's generally known to just not vote. Because even if evils have to fight eachother. Beating town is the highest priority for both of them.
and surv/NE generally join that so they don't get wacked by evils for voting.

my point is, when there is no convincing killing power in town you cannot force ne/NB to vote with you. thus resulting in evils not voting when they have majority.

mdb1023 wrote:I like your role lost suggestion, and I do agree that there needs to be more claimspace. However, I think having three random town slots and an any, or even four random town slots, is a bit too much. We want more claimspace, but we don't want too much, either, otherwise it becomes way too chaotic. I also agree that some roles are too powerful, but if we nerf the town too much, everyone will complain that town is too weak. There's a delicate balance that would need to be found.


Taking into consideration these suggstions I have slightly reshaped both rol lists confirming jailor and removing some randoms. Five mafia rolling is now impossible and town has a confirmed powerfull killing presence. I would like to get over the rol lists and explain why I picked each one to make things clearer.
B list is meant for lower ELO players

Jailor gives town a powerfull killing force and a way to kill possible jesters without risking a dead townie. Also prevents swing in tk
Investigator as a low ELO player I realize town is very depended on a good ti in my level. Scumreading is only used to a low extend and role claims rarely happen with more than 5 players alive. So if multiple spies roll towns win chance is fairly low. To avoid that I confirm a powerfull ti
Town investigative mainly intended to make sheriff/lookout claims more stable as these are common evil claims
Town support better than random town to avoid too much swing, still gives viable claims
Town killing gives mafiosos main claims confirmation and town gets isn't limited to one killing role ever
Town protective needed in every town and give vital claimspace
Random town claimspace
Random town claimspace
Random town claimspace
Godfather so mafia can kill
Mafioso so godfather isn't outed when roleblocked/jailed
Mafia deceptive essential for mafia to confuse town and makes tis less trustable
Mafia support wouldn't want to mafia deceptives to roll here
Executioner so investigator isn't that easily believed
Random neutral gives a chance to every role to appear without having to confirm anything like nk at this stage

Jailor see the other jailor
Town protective because town needs to have some for of protection
Town investigative again makes sheriff/lookout claims more stable
Town killing the same as before
Random town claimspace
Random town claimspace
Random town claimspace
Godfather same
Mafioso same
Random mafia allows for more powerfull combos and makes mafia less predictable
Random mafia same as before
Neutral killling no reason not to confirm since it makes it less of a one v one and players of this level should b able to handle it
Neutral evil helps evils win more
Random neutral allow for 2 nks to roll making things complicated and also makes the neutrals less predictable
Neutral benign/ chaos don't want 3 nks to roll in but I haughty it would be better to give this space to a more unique neutral. Consider changing it to town but not sure
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Sat Aug 06, 2016 4:16 am

Also I have slightly edited the op so I include other roles that need changes as well. This way most of 1.6 promises are covered
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:39 am

i have come up with some ideas for the nks. they are pretty powerfull buffs but then again its the nks. i would appreciate some feedback on that though.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby darkabsol » Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:17 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT
Some Criticism here, don't flame me

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself Might be better if you can choose to attack the Jailor by clicking a button next to their name
3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunnity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout.

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
- dousing now extends the draw counting
- when igniting you are roleblock immune and control immune Roleblock immune - maybe. Control immune - no.
- jailor can no longer protect someone from ignition I would rather have Jailor not being able to protect someone from being doused, but I'm also fine with both
- dousing ignores transportations No. Just no.
- I would say that any ignited targets wills should be 'burnt' away and are not public to the Town

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran All roles die by visiting an alerting Veteran - Werewolf should be no different. They even get to kill the Veteran already
- a doctor/bodygurd will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target
- people killed by the werewolf cannot be revived and thei roles are not shown to anyone but the werewolf This is way too much of a buff

also ive been thinking that maybe we could allow all nks to win together? its just a thought but this would give them allies that are not the always sided with town survivor or the always sided with mafia witch. Then again this isnt neccesarily needed. Pls no.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Tue Aug 09, 2016 2:50 am

darkabsol wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:Neutral killing : they all need a buff and I mean a big one. I have come up with some overbuffs but bewareOPINIONS ALERT
Some Criticism here, don't flame me i will do my best

serial killer : this is the best nk as is but he still rarely wins. main problem is how they are found by escort/consort/jailor easily but beeing alone with no confirmed allies hurts severly too. so
1 instead of killing escort/consort when roleblocked make it roleblock immune
2 if you are jailed you may select yourself to kill the jailor but you will not do so if you do not select yourself Might be better if you can choose to attack the Jailor by clicking a button next to their nameno because that would reveal jailors identity

3 give it a one time second ability using a second night button. Brutal kill. Brutal kill goes through night immunnity cannot be healed by a doctor and if your target is protected by a bodyguard you will not die using brutal kill. brutal kill is also undetectable by lookout.

arsonist : this is the second strongest nk of them all. sure werewolfs win rates are higher but since it isnt unique and constantly wins in modes like rainbow or some custom setups it actually ends up beeing stronger. anyway here is what ive come up with
- dousing now extends the draw counting
- when igniting you are roleblock immune and control immune Roleblock immune - maybe. Control immune - no.ok?
- jailor can no longer protect someone from ignition I would rather have Jailor not being able to protect someone from being doused, but I'm also fine with boththe real problem is jailor saving from ignition as he can really only randomly guess about dousing but he can protect confirmed townies from ignition
- dousing ignores transportations No. Just no.in guess so. Don't know why not though
- I would say that any ignited targets wills should be 'burnt' away and are not public to the Townso support the mafia huh? Well mafia could use a buff but this barely helps the arso himself while making no sense at all

werewolf: the worst nk of them all. he suffers from insuficent kills the lack of teammates and how easily he is found.
- you have the same jailor and escort/consort change as the serial killer does on full moon nights
- cannot be killed by an alerting veteran All roles die by visiting an alerting Veteran - Werewolf should be no different. They even get to kill the Veteran alreadyso what? If you die as werewolf you lose. Killing the vet does nothing. And this could intimidate veterans not to just reveal themselves even though removing death not is still needed.
- a doctor/bodygurd will not be able to save your victims unless they are the original target
- people killed by the werewolf cannot be revived and thei roles are not shown to anyone but the werewolf This is way too much of a buffim not sure if that should exist with a role whose win rate is 5% and is unique. Ret is nerfed and you get claimspace for yourself

also ive been thinking that maybe we could allow all nks to win together? its just a thought but this would give them allies that are not the always sided with town survivor or the always sided with mafia witch. Then again this isnt neccesarily needed. Pls no.yeah it isn't such a good idea. But otherwise we have to buff these guys to the limit. Much like what I did
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Sun Aug 14, 2016 7:07 am

Nevermind i just scraped that idea from the OP. wHat was i thinking by making all the nks win together.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:35 am

ok i have added more roles and changed the nks bufs slightly. I have though for a long time that survivors win rates are high. Higher than they should be. The ideas i have put in the op will mainly help with him not picking to hlp town but wont lower his win rates enough. We should have something to make players have a reason ot to let the survivor win but not make it impossible for him. All in all here is my idea:
IF a survivor wins a ranked match all players who lost that match will lose 3 ELO more that they would have.

Im not if i should fit this in though. I would like some feebdack on this. If you have a beter idea feel free to post it.
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Sat Aug 20, 2016 2:25 pm

I've been thinking whether just letting retri revive the confirmed jailor beats the purpose of him beeing claimable. Mayor is nerfed enough to not be that obvious of a choice + is rare in a game with a retri with these role lists. So maybe retri shouldn't be able to revive jailor? Also gonna take a rework on the role lists too soon
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby SofiaShe » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:40 pm

I like this idea, it's will be nice if this is added to the game
Nerf the Transporter!

Witch VS Transporter:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=50621
Arsonist VS Transporter
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=51525&p=1697876#p1697876

This is the Joker:
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=50813
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Re: 1.6 ranked fixes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:12 am

Thanks a lot but what do you think about the ret not reviving jailor one? Maybe I am nerfing him too hard? Not sure if I want it added.
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