Whisper System Overhaul

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Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:37 am

Right now whispers are broken. Gathering claims through whispers (or even voting) makes the game incredibly easy for the Town, requiring almost no actual social deduction to solve the game mechanically. I have come up with what I believe is a easy way to fix many of these problems with a role list change, changes to a few roles, and the addition of an entirely new role, the Osservatore. This idea will completely remove whisper games, start to fix the Spy, and protect the integrity of the game's balance. It does overwrite some of the things that have been changed in updates over the past few years since this was first suggested, but this shouldn't be looked at in a bad light. Giving the Blackmailer the ability to read whispers, whilst not as ideal as the solution presented here, was a needed step in the right direction. Repealing these updates now whilst implementing a new whisper system should prove to cause no real problems. With that being said, I understand that a good amount of programming and bug-testing would be required to implement this into the game. However, that has never scared me away from making good balance suggestions before, and it will not this time. :P Now, without further ado, the Whisper System Overhaul:

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Role-list Change:
  • Jailor
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Protective
  • Town Killing
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Godfather
  • Mafioso
  • Mafia Support
  • Random Mafia
  • Neutral Evil
  • Neutral Killing
Blackmailer Changes:
- No longer reads whispers passively
- Blackmailing now reduced to two uses
- Blackmailed targets cannot use their day abilities
- Blackmailed targets cannot speak on the stand at all
- Blackmailed targets must now wait eight seconds before changing their vote after it has been placed
- Now has a bug ability that works exactly like the Spy, except it sees all actions done to the target that night
Spy Changes:
- No longer sees Mafia visits passively
- Now sees whispers
- Now has a two-use "Stakeout" ability, which shows it all Mafia visits. To use Stakeout, the Spy must target itself at night (can be roleblocked or controlled)
Vampire Hunter Overhaul:
- Vampire Hunter changed to the Hunter, a Town Protective role that follows people and scares off those that wish them ill will
New Role:
- Added the Osservatore, a Mafia Support role that can watch people to see who visits them or follow them and see where they go
Investigator Change:
- Changed results to "Lookout, Osservatore, or Mayor", "Investigator, Consigliere, or Witch", "Sheriff, Forger, Executioner, or Werewolf", and "Bodyguard, Hunter, Godfather, or Arsonist"
Whisper System Changes:
- Whispers will no longer be shown publicly to the Town (no notification that somebody is whispering unless you sent or received a given whisper)
- Town roles can no longer whisper
- Roles that can read whispers (Spy/Osservatore) can no longer see the sender or the recipient of the whisper, only read the message
- The recipient of a message will see the name of the sender, meaning that sending a whisper to a Townie is instant death
Town Leader (Power):
- This suggestion currently does not call for Town Leader (aka Town Power) to be implemented; however, if it is, this suggestion could be used to accentuate it by giving a new Town Leader role the ability to whisper

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I think you will find that these changes fit nicely as a step down from removing whispers as a whole, and this is probably the only practical way to make whispers non-Town-sided. With that being said, give me your thoughts. Do you think the extra complexity of only scum being able to whisper isn't worth it compared to just axing whispers entirely? Do you want Town Leader to be added with a new TL role that can whisper? Are there any interactions I'm missing here?

Thank you very much, and I look forward to your feedback.
Last edited by orangeandblack5 on Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:00 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby BrianLy » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:55 am

This action will change the Town of Salem metagame. Although if people were to remain in the Mayor metagame, they are required to say their role aloud which would jeopardize the players security and rid of whispering rids of spies being confirmable.

Good job on the overhaul, but is the town ready for the big change? Will people be happy with no whispering?
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 8:58 am

I'd be fine with completely removing whispers, so I am. This just keeps them for the evils to coordinate stuff like Witch/Arsonist partnerships.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby BrianLy » Sun Jul 10, 2016 9:40 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:I'd be fine with completely removing whispers, so I am. This just keeps them for the evils to coordinate stuff like Witch/Arsonist partnerships.


Wait, can town roles still be able to be recipients of whispers?
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby BPsycho2 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:21 am

Yes, otherwise you could just spam attempted whispers as mafia and lead the town lynching neutrals

Problem.

Spy.

A member of the Mafia visited john hathorne
Orange visited john hathorne

Maf
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby monkeymacman » Sun Jul 10, 2016 11:57 am

So... you make a balance change to amnesiac, then make it impossible in Ranked, which is by far the most balanced list. Not a fan of most of these, but I do agree with some.
Mayor Changes - Mayor definitely needs to only have 2 votes, yes. Doctor being able to heal Mayor is probably more of a buff to Jailor than anything else, as they don't have to worry as any TP can protect the Mayor, so Jailor only has to jail the mayor if he wants to talk in private to the Mayor or confirm himself.
Redistributionist Changes - hm... does Ret really need a nerf? He's useless besides as a vote after that anyway, of course a pretty confirmed town vote, but still just a single vote. That would be like if Vig died after using all three bullets regardless if the last one was town or not.
Vigilante Changes - Vigilante's death note really isn't that good for revealing yourself, because unless a TP protects you then you could be in a bit of trouble with Maf, and as far as I've ever seen, the only times Vig uses a death note is to say why they killed the person (which is useful, not only fro gameplay, but also to reduce the amounts of false reports) and trolly death notes (if that is the reason then death notes in general should be removed)
Veteran Changes - I feel like Vet and Vig both either need to have the death note or neither of them do. I really couldn't care less if Vet has a death note so if Vig gets a death note give it to vet, if vig doesn't, don't.
Transporter Changes - So I get the feeling you just want no 100% confirmable roles besides mayor because he's special. I wouldn't really mind Transporter not giving notifications of being transported. This would also nerf Invest as anybody can claim anything and (besides no transporter speaking up) there is no proof that the investigated person wasn't transported, so scum can claim trans and maf can even work together one of them claiming trans and to have transed the other on on the night the invest checked them. Not being able to transport Jester guilt is simultaneously a Nerf to Town and Jester (as there is the occasional transporter that teams with Jester so Transporter can make-shift kill and break through someone's night immunity for 1 night). I personally like Transporter being able to transport Jester guilt, but it can be annoying at times, and doesn't make sense realistically.
Amnesiac Changes - I've said this before and I'll say it again, Amnesiac should at least give a notification that they remembered a role, but not which role they remembered, this makes it so somebody can confirm that they were amne, but not what they remembered, nor their innocence, and simultaneously makes them a target and not a target (for town, I'm sure mafia will probably go for them if there's any good roles in graveyard and they didn't become mafia)
Role- List Changes - I really don't see why you hate Neutral Benign so much. Neutral Killing relies on Neutral Benign for the most part (or at least survivor, when there is one), the only other times NK really wins is when a witch teams up with them, which doesn't happen much. I can not think of a single time I've seen NK win besides when Any was another NK/NB or in a kingmaker situation (which is generally in terms of NB) (besides the once in every blue moon chance that town forgets about arso or ww and they kill 5 people in one night, leaving them to win). I do understand that you don't have the Any in there because Vampires aren't balance (I blame the VH existing for that one), but at least every role besides Vampire should at least be possible, especially NB
Spy Changes - I definitely agree with them not being able to read mafia chat. Sort-of agree with them not being able to hear whisper's once dead (although that just nerf's med's and ret's, which is not something we need to do). The Tracker ability just makes Spy extremely easily confirmable (wasn't the point of Blackmailer being able to read whisper's to make it not confirmable? Although I guess with these changes blackmailer won't be able to hear any whispers besides from neutral's, which is meh.This definitely makes Spy and Blackmailer not go together very well), almost every role has a visiting capability, and with the majority of town being town 9at least at the start) this make Spy extremely easy to confirm, which contradicts what changes you were making earlier, making roles not confirmable.
Vampire Hunter Overhaul - I'll leave my thoughts to that thread, not going to talk about it here.
Osservatore - See above
Whisper Changes - First of all, I'm gonna assume you don't want the blackmailer to read whisper's and instead have the Osservatore's as the counterpart? Meh... Second. I, I just don't like this change at all. Town can never communicate unless it is public communication. If this were added, I would hope there would be some town role that could whisper (personally if there was I would prefer this to be Spy's night ability rather then stalking), of course, I still don't support this change.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Myersvandalay » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:26 pm

Overall I really like the ideas

not sure on the ret one, the one method I like the idea of the ret suiciding after reviving, would be one that cannot be done (on the basis that the dev's consider the disguisers effect on the reporting system, the reason for it's removal). The ret I don't see as "too confirmable", the person he res's on the other hand, not so much. If the ret worked like a backwards disguiser play. with a similar to amne message.

AKA town gets a message "A retributionist has traded his soul with an investigator". That saves the insta-confirmability problem. (but again, creates a reporting nightmare if the investigator decides to start spewing hate speech with the retri's avitar/name.

But, assuming that isn't on the table, I can't see a good reason for the retri to suicide. I mean the role is dull enough on it's own, sitting around hoping to get a good chance to revive someone, then effectively only being a vote and a voice in town square.

The ret himself isn't the overly confirmable role IMO, 4 people can whisper "YW" to the Investigator after he gets back up, but only one guy can claim to be that investigator assuming the town is not savant, or overtaken by vamps.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Greenpandalover » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:25 pm

Mayor- I like both of these. Since most town roles are confirmable, theres no real reason that the mayor shouldnt be healed. A doc could camp the mayor, but that would leave other roles open (Kind of like how the BG plays atm with mayors.)

Ret- Meh. Ret is just a one time use role, and has no use after it revives besides 1 vote. I wouldnt mind if it was added, nor would I mind if it wasnt.

Jailor- You rarely see jailor using their deathnote to confirm themselves and the deathnotes are usually junk/reason for executing. Wouldnt mind if added/removed. The 2 executes is a decent nerf to an OP role.

Vigilante- Same with above except Vigilante could use deathnote to out an immune shot. Im a bit more sided to keeping the vigs deathnote, but I can see why people would want it gone.

Veteran- No reason to have a deathnote in the first point, lorewise, nor gamewise. Only use would be to confirm themselves.

Transporter- I get the reason you want to remove the not, but I feel like this would just screw everyone over. It screws evils over because they cant use a false transed claim. It screws investigative roles completely. Invest/Sheriff would get false leads/wrong info in their wills, which is one of towns strongest tools. Also, if an invest sees a town member as scum, the towny wouldnt be able to protect themselves strongly, and once that towny dies, the invest would be discreditted. Though, it does add a buff the killer roles because if a LO sees the killer kill, the killer could just say, "I swapped myself with them and saved myself."
The jester one I dont agree with because a jesters guilt is a mode of killing. Transporter can abuse any killing roles in the game and make them target someone else, so why get rid of transporting one mode of killing?

Amnesiac- I kind of like what that other guy suggested with the whole, "Amnesiac would still get notified, just not the role." That way, am amnesiac could choose something like SK, but claim they remembered town. It becomes a semi-confirmable role then.

Rolelist- I like the use of random towns, but I dont like the exclusion of the NB roles. I get that the survivor is a Kingmaker role, but it still gives help to the NK roles who dont have any "partners." Removing the NB just nerfs the NK roles a bit. Also, whats the point of balancing the amnesiac role if youre just going to remove from the role list? (First thing I thought of was, "What if all the random/invest roles were were invesitgators, and both the random towns were consig e.e.)

Whisper changes- I see no purpose of giving a scum role the ability to read whispers if only scum can whisper. The scum role reading the whispers of townys is a strong tool for that role. Also, what does this gain for anybody? Mafia would just wait till night to share theyre info so spy wouldnt gain it. Also, if they do whisper during the day, what would they say? "Vote this person?" Whispers would just become a feature that would be rarely used. Also, what would be the point of spy not being able to hear whsipers once dead if that cant even see whos whispering who.... Just remove whispers interially at this point.

Vampite Hunter- So it becomes an escort who cant choose who the roleblock. Vampire Hunter needs a change, but this is not it... (Also dislike how this role was designed around a doctor nsrf which isnt even being added to the game.)

Osser.- Meh. Its like a LO- Spy(this verdion) love child.

Town Power- Its confusing. First you say you want whispering only to be with scum roles, then you say give the mayor the ability to whisper before it reveals. Pick an idea, and stay with it rather than flipflopping.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jul 10, 2016 5:01 pm

boi

The point is claimspace

And I'm not flip-flopping my message

A Town role specifically given the ability to whisper would make a great Town Power
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby ok98161 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:50 am

If only scum could whisper it would be terrible. Scum would be auto-confirmed. And then there's no point in blackmailer reading whispers, because they can only read whispers that are going to almost always be mafia. I say we keep the whispers the way they are, give blackmailer the ability to read whispers, and make both spy and blackmailers not be able to read whispers once they're dead.

If rets are going to suicide when they revive, they need to have temporary night immune until they revive(henceforth buffing GF/NK because there's a temporary night immune townie, so town won't lynch night immunes as much), but they lose their night immunity after night 3(because they've already had the chance to revive someone more often than not).

I love the new role list! So much more balanced, and much more scum claimspace!!! I also love the amnesiac changes and would be more confident in remembering a scum role. I'm so-so on the town killing death notes removed. I feel like it doesn't matter with the veteran, but I would keep the vigilante so people can explain why they shot(helps with reports). I like that there is no more transporting of jester guilt! If you are haunting someone, you don't let someone else switch who you haunted. I like the mayor changes too, it can keep jailor from being a protective role.

I would keep jailor the way it is. The DN is good for explaining your lynches. I also like 3 lynches, because I've rarely gone a game where I lynched 3 non-towns(maybe 1 or 2 games).

Don't give spy an extra ability, just put the tracker in the game. Or, if you really want to go with the tracking, make it optional to do that OR find where mafia went(select yourself to see where mafia went). This keeps it from being too OP in finding the mafia.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:11 am

BPsycho2 wrote:Problem.

Spy.

A member of the Mafia visited john hathorne
Orange visited john hathorne

Maf

ok98161 wrote:Or, if you really want to go with the tracking, make it optional to do that OR find where mafia went(select yourself to see where mafia went). This keeps it from being too OP in finding the mafia.

I think we found our solution, AND a cover up for the Osservatore for nights it decides to use its Lookout ability and sees no visitors.

Good job ok, good job.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Kingkkrool » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:06 am

Many things to tell. I agree with many things, whisper removing is a must have, now.

orangeandblack5 wrote:Mayor Changes


I'm not a fan. Mayor can still be protected by Bodyguard and Jailor. He can also get resurrected by a Retributionist. I prefer the current power(+3 but no Heal). By so, you can also bite him as Vampire. Funny, then.


Retributionist Changes: Dies upon reviving its target after revealing?


Hum...many people don't like retri already...now if they have to sacrifice themselves...you'll see just haters. Why not being able to vote until the rest of the game instead? It's not as revealing since anyone can fake "not being able to vote", and Blackmailer will have fun then.


Jailor Changes:


Better: you cannot jail someone if there has been a lynch the previous day. That's would be enough. 3 execs is not bad if you exec a surv and a jest already.


Death Note Removed


To be honest? Why not. Death note is for bad guys anyway. I'd also remove suicide for "cannot kill anymore" like Jailor. Even if you random, it's just once and you can still play.


Transporter Changes:
-No longer gives feedback notifications
-Can no longer transport Jester guilt


Love the first one. But the second...it never happens...but like this, you can save a Mayor. It's funny. Trans is not that strategicly used, more randomly. I don't think that nerf for Jester is really useful.


Amnesiac Changes:


+5000000. If you investigate an Amnesiac, you cannot remember being an evil role anymore. And remembering as Jailor(why not? You should be able to! But if so, not-resurrectable?)would be "surpriiiiiiiiise!!!!".


Role-list Changes:


4 mafs+2 evil is just NO.

What I suggest:

A. Classic easy:
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Neutral Any (NK excluded)X2
Neutral Killing
Town Investigative*2
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support*2
Town RandomX3

Like this, you don't need GF+Mafi anytime. Two useful mafs, so, three actions for mafs per night possible. Neutral Any can be Benign, Chaos or Evil. You can now claim Surv with less risks. Easier for Evil and since two, even with the current Any, we'll see less "already another surv claimed". 9 towns, never more(because of the current Any), more stable.

B. Mafia*4:
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Deception
Mafia Random
Neutral Killing
Neutral Random(NK excluded)
Investigator
Town Investigative*2
Town Killing
Town Protective*2
Town Support
Town RandomX2

If you really want 4 mafs, exclude NK but 9 towns only remain.

C. Super-easy-mode
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Random(Mafioso excluded)
Serial Killer
Vampire
Jester
Jailor
Sheriff
Investigator
Doctor
Escort
Veteran
Vampire Hunter
Town Random*2

If you want so much to be sure having a Jailor, etc... You don't like random neither using brain if you have one, that's for you.


D. My Real Suggestion
Mafia(random)*3
Town(random)*8
Neutral(evils) [killing+witch+vampire]
Neutral(benign) [exec+jest+amne+surv]
Any(random)*2

More random, more fun but still balanced. Mor estrategic. You can claim any role. You nver know if it will be easy for town or hard or as a bad guy. That's what we REALLY want for rank. You cannot confirm anything but Mayor, you can't trust anyone, you have to really use your brain.


Spy Changes:
-Remove ability to read Mafia night chat
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead
-Now has a night ability - it can track one person each night, seeing where they go or if they stay home


Nope. That'll become just an old role I knew called Detective. That's not a bad role, but Spy still be strong. Remove whispers(so don't need to remove this ability since no whisper anymore), can read Maf chat and their target. But not while dead. That's enough. Really. Give it a try, it's powerful enough like this.


Vampire Hunter Overhaul:


Nah. Still usefull to being able to counter Vampires. Or you could turn Vigis or Spies into Vampire Hunters with a chat for VHs and they could know each other(a town clan)?


Whisper System Changes:
-Town roles can no longer whisper
-Roles that can read whispers (Spy/Osservatore) can no longer see the sender or the recipient of the whisper, only read the message
-The recipient of a message will see the name of the sender, meaning that sending a whisper to a Townie is instant death


The problem is "someone whispers=he's not town, let's lynch him" if you can see the sender. If you can't, you just give to Maf a public chat all day long. Too strong. Who else would whisper? NK? No reason to. Witch for maf? Yeah, maybe, at most. I'm not fan of those restrictions. Or you give some roles that power(Witch to whisper to her target once during the night?), or just remove it to everyone.



Maybe give the Mayor the ability to send whispers (even before revealing), but keep it at only two votes


Mayor is one of the reasons we want to remove whispers. Even with no bonus vote.


I'd like to add some other changes:
-Janitor: can target a member of the mafia.
-Disguiser: only one use but kills and cleans his target.
-Neutral Evil: add Vampire, remove Exec/Jester to Neutral Benign.
-allowing two WW but instead, remove the rb kill(only for sk could be nice)or only the roleblocker is killed.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Flashu2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:38 pm

I don't like this idea since it's adding and changing a few roles into boring ones (ie the Spy and the "Observatore" role that you suggest), let's all be honest, no one will enjoy these roles anymore after these changes and the satisfaction of lynching a Mafia you found from a whisper will be removed. We already have Medium, stop with the boring roles pls!
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby BPsycho2 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:45 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
BPsycho2 wrote:Problem.

Spy.

A member of the Mafia visited john hathorne
Orange visited john hathorne

Maf

ok98161 wrote:Or, if you really want to go with the tracking, make it optional to do that OR find where mafia went(select yourself to see where mafia went). This keeps it from being too OP in finding the mafia.

I think we found our solution, AND a cover up for the Osservatore for nights it decides to use its Lookout ability and sees no visitors.

Good job ok, good job.


So. a good spy would keep doing nothing so that they can confirm Town members.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 5:21 pm

BPsycho2 wrote:So. a good spy would keep doing nothing so that they can confirm Town members.

A good Osservatore would not track and instead use its Lookout ability.

So we're even, unless they actually do the right thing and remove Spy's Mafia visit tracker or at least allow Framer to tamper with it.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:29 pm

Make Tracking the Spy's main ability, also let it tell if it's target is roleblocked, and make it's Mafia track a one-shot ability.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:20 am

I think I'll make it three uses of Mafia tracking. This still gives the Osservatore good cover for nights on which it sees nothing, but also drastically reduces the power of the Spy.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby BPsycho2 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:11 pm

Spy: Mafia visited him him and her. three confirmed nonmafia, serial killer is dead, let's assume town.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 2:12 pm

One supersensor, no reading whispers, and allow it to tell if it's target is roleblocked is how I'd go with Tracker.

EDIT: Also, I read the Hunter FAQ, but didn't you say that the Doctor shouldn't be able to heal the same person twice in a row unless successful?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Aug 04, 2016 3:23 pm

Kirize12 wrote:One supersensor, no reading whispers, and allow it to tell if it's target is roleblocked is how I'd go with Tracker.

EDIT: Also, I read the Hunter FAQ, but didn't you say that the Doctor shouldn't be able to heal the same person twice in a row unless successful?

I'll consider that for the tracker, but I think I'd rather not show roleblocks and keep two supersensors (which need a better name). @BPsycho2 Also keep in mind that it is impossible to tell a Spy from an Osservatore without a Sheriff check.

Yes, but that is a Hunter assumption, it isn't actually needed for this whisper overhaul.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby DRxSKILLZx » Thu Aug 04, 2016 5:43 pm

i think this has been fixed now that mafia can read whispers(with blackmailer) but i just wish blackmailer was more common i use scrolls and i still NEVER EVER get blackmailer
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Myersvandalay » Thu Aug 04, 2016 8:15 pm

DRxSKILLZx wrote:i think this has been fixed now that mafia can read whispers(with blackmailer) but i just wish blackmailer was more common i use scrolls and i still NEVER EVER get blackmailer



Well you know, if everyone uses scrolls, it's like no one is using scrolls, and I imagine right now, half the players in the game have BMer and invest scrolls trying to get use to the game.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby chitownmvp01 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 10:01 am

I disagree with your Mayor change. Ability to be healed could make it live longer and it's still a confirmed town with an extra vote once they reveal. For the Ret change, the revived player loses their abilities? If not, I don't see the point of taking the appearance of the Ret. I disagree with the Jailor death note removal because they could just say something like "lynch player B if player A is town" in their will and/or in the chat anyways. I'm fine with reducing executions to 2, but I don't often see Jailors using all 3 anyways. If you don't want the Vigilante to be confirmed via death note, removing it is fine, but putting their name risks being controlled. What's the point of removing the Vet death note if they will likely be confirmed via their visitor's will anyways? I agree with removing guilt being transported, but not with the other one. I like the Amnesiac change though. Makes it harder to prove. I think Spy should be able to see the Mafia chat. I don't think we should make it easy for Mafia to discuss things without worry. I agree with removing the ability to remove whispers when dead though.

I love the role list change for Ranked. More RTs make it harder to use process of elimination. Isn't the Hunter basically the same as the FM Marshal? It would be interesting to see how evil roles approach it (like sending Mafioso and RM to the Mayor). I like the Osservatore role.

I think the whisper system is fine as is with 1.5, but a game mode with no whispers would be interesting.
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Myersvandalay » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:05 am

chitownmvp01 wrote: I think Spy should be able to see the Mafia chat. I don't think we should make it easy for Mafia to discuss things without worry. I agree with removing the ability to remove whispers when dead though.


I think this part is where I widest disagree with. Biggest issue scum has IMO is claim space, and that issue is compounded massively by the lack of ability to avoid overlap. A mafia in which the GF claims sheriff, Framer claims lookout, mafioso claims sheriff as well, then day 1 they kill the sheriff, is in a pretty crappy position. If we were to compromise maybe spies take a day to tap into mafia chat. Giving mafia 30 seconds of known secure communication to avoid overlap, spread their claims out etc...
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Re: Whisper System Overhaul

Postby Kirize12 » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:34 am

Just remove it outright, Spy gains nothing from having it.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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