yousername wrote:I completely agree with the spy changes. At first I thought "This is bullshit!", but then after reviewing the current argument I have to say that I'm convinced that spy being unable to read mafia chat will not only balance the game which is what this role list is here for, but also allow mafia to function the way it should.
Plus, this does not make consigliere over powered. Upon being asked to post his will, town will notice that key roles die the night after he investigates them. This will require townies to think for a minute, but anyone who is half-competent will realize his malicious intent.
Exactly. It just makes sense.
yousername wrote:Do spies still see who the mafia visits each night?
Currently yes, although I've been considering alternative powers (such as seeing ALL non-Town visits, acting as a reverse Lookout, etc.). There is more to be done here. Spy's passives are its crutch right now, and that should end.
yousername wrote:Oh wait, wasn't there something in the OP about spy only being able to read whispers upon his three nights of choosing? I think that's unnecessary, but I can understand that mafia would still be afraid to whisper mid-day. Unless of course they have a consort who stops the spy, then they're home free
That is a possibile idea, because whispers will ALWAYS be Town-sided.
yousername wrote:This is just a random suggestion (although I like it a bit more than the current one), what if the spy were able to choose one name each night, and read the whispers to and from that person from the previous day?
FOR EXAMPLE:
Day 2:
X whispered to Y
X Whispered to Z
Y Whispered to X
A Whispered to B
Night 2:
You decided to read X's whispers from the previous day
X whispered to Y: Hey, I know you're witch
X whispered to Z: I'm no mafia!
Y Whispered to X: Hellz yeah mah mafioso broso!
Interesting idea. I like it, but it's past midnight right now so I'll review it more tomorrow.
yousername wrote:ALSO!
Even from the lore perspective, the Blackmailer reading whispers makes sense.
1.) Blackmailers work with secrets, right? How are you supposed to use secrets against people if they keep their secrets from you!
2.) Blackmailers don't instantly get lynched when an investigator hits them and they can't do a spy test.
Yep. The only reason that Spy/Blackmailer is still a pair in this results list is because it now actually works.
yousername wrote:ANOTHER NOTE!
if we're getting the useless roles out of ranked then disguiser shouldn't be roll-able
As much as I can see where you're coming from, Disguiser is now less useless than before, although it is still quite situational, sadly (as is the Framer). However, I'd rather give it a passive ability than remove it entirely, because removing ANY Mafia role right now (except MAYBE Framer) would be incredibly disastrous to any Investigator results list. Replace it? Fine. Remove it? No thanks.
PolyesterHomes wrote:The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.
Really.
Jester in no way prevents mass lynches IN RANKED. People in Ranked are either in high enough Elo that they won't be random lynching or low enough that they're too bad for it to matter. Jester is just Freelo to the person that rolls it and a deterrent to smart play. It stalls the game, nothing more. Just because that helps the evils doesn't mean that it's good; in this case, it lowers the skill ceiling of the game, which is bad.
Survivors force people to "play politics"? Don't make me laugh. They are inherently scum-leaning, yet all they do is waste a kill or a lynch, because neither side can afford the loss the Survivor turning against them brings. The only "politics" involved with Survivors is being nice and/or begging on your figurative knees so that they may be more likely to side with you. It promotes kingmaker scenarios and lets an unaligned Neutral role decide entire games. In no way is this "crucial", and in every way does it unbalance the game.
Amnesiacs, on the other hand, are literally free Townies. I've seen less than 10 Amnesiacs join the Neutrals or the Mafia in all of my Ranked games, because that is a terrible strategy. Investigators hardcounter any "freedom" to choose a side Amnesiacs have, and they essentially force kingmakers days in advance. Amnesiacs are almost as swingy as Survivors, with the only reason they're not
more swingy being that it is terrible Amnesiac play 9 times out of 10, and most of the remaining 10% is still worse than joining Town.
PolyesterHomes wrote:Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.
No, they don't. Yes, convincing people of your innocence as scum is a big part of the game. However, begging the NBs for your win is NOT the type of "silver-tongued" discussion that the game needs.
PolyesterHomes wrote:Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.
What reason is that?
Promoting kingmakers? Plus, the "lore" is that he leaves the Town. The only other alternative to this that I've thought of is removing its night immunity after it hangs its target AND making it so that the Town must kill Executioners to win (basically Exe has Witch wincons, except it doesn't use them to win). This would keep its vote for the scum and get rid of the "lynch my target for a night immune Townie" idea; however, it can still side with Town after hanging its target if it really wants to, which is a problem because at that point it's not gamethrowing like a Witch siding with Town would be. So.
PolyesterHomes wrote:Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.
If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)
Really.
Balance > Lore