Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:04 pm

Nellyfox wrote:The definition of a neutral benign is a role with no set alignment until they choose to have one. Amnesiac fits that category.

Then, by that same defition, Executioner and Jester are both Neutral Benign as well.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:12 pm

AssassinOfDoom wrote:The Disguiser change is genius, as it doesn't make it another form of the forger. I like the BG and Vig buffs. The Framer change to fool town over how the victim dies seems nice. If the Mayor can be healed by Doctors, what will prevent them from insta-revealing? I think the Framer making the Mafia appear as confirmed town to the Investigator nerfs the Investigator a bit too much. The other changes, I am either neutral or against, but I don't want to make this too long.

Edit: Actually, I think Ice's suggestion to let the Jester RNG Haunt a random Townie will make the town even more scared to lynch. Since the Jester is unaligned, which I agree should be, it should also be given the ability to harm the baddies, since it favours no side. If the Jester can haunt a baddy, then Town wouldn't be so scared, but still likely to die since Town usually have majority in most games. I'm sure once they lose majority, the baddies would lynch a Jester to settle a Stalemate, which gives the game more of a complex side.

Credit to Mroz on the Disguiser change. Nothing prevents a Mayor from insta-revealing any more that the Jailor. However, doing so tells the scum that the TPow in the game is a Mayor, so the dead will stay dead and they won't be jailed/executed. Showing your hand too early in an information game, even if you're now 100% likely to have one role that will protect you no matter which TPow you are, is always going to give the scum more info than you'll gain.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby HappyMatt369 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:26 pm

Thanks for putting this all together! It really helps. :D
Now onto my questions/comments
Retributionist "Buff" Will retributionist still be able to revive anyone? Because if not it would be basically a civilian. (Maybe add a weaker revive?)
Werewolf Buff: If you didn't kill 2+ people full moon early game, you targeted the wrong person. Could add that for late game though
Godfather Buff: That's the "other mafia can kill" thing right?
Executioner: Spy as the target? We all know spy is insta confirmed... also exe dying after lynching its target doesn't make sense. Maybe just remove immunity and have it be a civilian (they won already anyways)
Arsonist/Sheriff Sheriff needs a slight buff, but arso doesn't need a debuff. I don't get why this is there.
Investigator: Doc/Disguiser/Sk still screws doc over. Most of the time, doctors are lynched even with doc/sk/vamp. framer/vamp is this the "framed" message? This screws vampires (but vamps are going to be changed anyway) medium/janitor/jester hard on mediums, and gives jester an easy win from janitor being maf and medium is hard to prove.
Might add more, but this comment is getting long. Might make it seperate. :P
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:09 pm

1: It is still able to revive others. It only revives itself if it dies before using its revive.
2: No reason to not add any buff to the early-game though, just in case.
3: No, although I would add that if I wasn't making there be 4 confirmed Mafia every game, one of whom is the Mafioso. This means that the Godfather chooses which Mafia role is promoted when the Godfather or Mafioso dies. For example, let's say that the Disguiser has used all three of his disguises. If the Godfather picks him, he will be promoted instead of the other Mafia role to Mafioso if the Godfather or Mafioso dies.
4: Spy is no longer instant-confirmed here. The Blackmailer can now also read whispers. Also, it dying after lynching its target is the only way to completely prevent it from siding with the Town or causing unnecessary kingmakers. Removing its night immunity would work better than the current version, but having it die is a better solution. The only other thing I can think of would be requiring it to hang its target and then force Town to kill it to win. The upside to this is that the scum get a night immune vote on their side. However, it seems kind of weird. I was planning on having the Exe be my next discussion point, so we'll talk more about it then.
5: Because Arsonist is already being given silent douses, and I can't think of anything better.
6: Doc/Disguiser/SK is fine enough. Better to screw over a Town Protective than the Disguiser or SK. Framer/Vampire is the Framed message, and Vampires reproduce, so a bad investigative result is good leverage. Medium/Janitor/Jester should actually help prevent Medium lynches once the metagame adapts to it.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Someguyinabobz » Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:17 pm

Spy should still be able to read mafia chat cause if not then...

consig op

Blackmailer should have a self action to read whispers
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:18 pm

How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby hewhohasnoname » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:17 am

Town should keep the death notes its an important element of their thinking process during the kill other than that its really comedic :) Removing the death notes isn't going to change the balance all it does is reduce the fun.........
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:58 pm

hewhohasnoname wrote:Town should keep the death notes its an important element of their thinking process during the kill other than that its really comedic :) Removing the death notes isn't going to change the balance all it does is reduce the fun.........

They most certainly change the balance of the game, especially since they make the powerhouse that is Veteran a self-confirmable role, Jailor even more confirmable than it was, and the otherwise hard-to-prove Vig easily proven once you have a non-Town target. They need to go.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Someguyinabobz » Fri Dec 25, 2015 3:41 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.

http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 14&t=20374


Consig can freely share the info without worries killing half the point of spy
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Dec 25, 2015 8:53 pm

Someguyinabobz wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374


Consig can freely share the info without worries killing half the point of spy

So? What's the point of being "informed" if you can't even share info?

Plus, Mafia doesn't say anything in night chat anyways due to there being fear of a Spy. This doesn't nerf Spy at all, it buffs the Mafia and increases coordination. There is literally no reason not to do this.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby TrueGent » Fri Dec 25, 2015 11:35 pm

Someguyinabobz wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374


Consig can freely share the info without worries killing half the point of spy

that isnt even close to OP lmao
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby yousername » Sat Dec 26, 2015 6:57 am

I completely agree with the spy changes. At first I thought "This is bullshit!", but then after reviewing the current argument I have to say that I'm convinced that spy being unable to read mafia chat will not only balance the game which is what this role list is here for, but also allow mafia to function the way it should.


Plus, this does not make consigliere over powered. Upon being asked to post his will, town will notice that key roles die the night after he investigates them. This will require townies to think for a minute, but anyone who is half-competent will realize his malicious intent.

Do spies still see who the mafia visits each night?

Oh wait, wasn't there something in the OP about spy only being able to read whispers upon his three nights of choosing? I think that's unnecessary, but I can understand that mafia would still be afraid to whisper mid-day. Unless of course they have a consort who stops the spy, then they're home free :D

This is just a random suggestion (although I like it a bit more than the current one), what if the spy were able to choose one name each night, and read the whispers to and from that person from the previous day?

FOR EXAMPLE:
Day 2:
X whispered to Y
X Whispered to Z
Y Whispered to X
A Whispered to B
Night 2:
You decided to read X's whispers from the previous day
X whispered to Y: Hey, I know you're witch
X whispered to Z: I'm no mafia!
Y Whispered to X: Hellz yeah mah mafioso broso!


ALSO!

Even from the lore perspective, the Blackmailer reading whispers makes sense.
1.) Blackmailers work with secrets, right? How are you supposed to use secrets against people if they keep their secrets from you!
2.) Blackmailers don't instantly get lynched when an investigator hits them and they can't do a spy test.


ANOTHER NOTE!

if we're getting the useless roles out of ranked then disguiser shouldn't be roll-able
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:01 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.

There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.

Why?
The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.

Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.

Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.

Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.

Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.

If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Juuhazan » Sat Dec 26, 2015 11:52 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.

There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.

Why?
The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.

Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.

Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.

Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.

Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.

If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)


Not in Ranked they aren't. NBs only serve to be swing factors. Surv? Free mafia vote. Lynch. Amne? Free townie. It doesn't really become a game of skill when the game gives one side a buff at random.

It's like random crits in TF2. There is a reason they are off in comp servers and any other server worth their salt. Do you like getting killed by a pellet that shouldn't have normally killed you? Likewise, do you like losing because of a kingmaker?

And are you saying the Spy shouldn't be changed? Are you daft?
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Dec 27, 2015 7:55 am

yousername wrote:I completely agree with the spy changes. At first I thought "This is bullshit!", but then after reviewing the current argument I have to say that I'm convinced that spy being unable to read mafia chat will not only balance the game which is what this role list is here for, but also allow mafia to function the way it should.


Plus, this does not make consigliere over powered. Upon being asked to post his will, town will notice that key roles die the night after he investigates them. This will require townies to think for a minute, but anyone who is half-competent will realize his malicious intent.

Exactly. It just makes sense.

yousername wrote:Do spies still see who the mafia visits each night?

Currently yes, although I've been considering alternative powers (such as seeing ALL non-Town visits, acting as a reverse Lookout, etc.). There is more to be done here. Spy's passives are its crutch right now, and that should end.

yousername wrote:Oh wait, wasn't there something in the OP about spy only being able to read whispers upon his three nights of choosing? I think that's unnecessary, but I can understand that mafia would still be afraid to whisper mid-day. Unless of course they have a consort who stops the spy, then they're home free :D

That is a possibile idea, because whispers will ALWAYS be Town-sided.

yousername wrote:This is just a random suggestion (although I like it a bit more than the current one), what if the spy were able to choose one name each night, and read the whispers to and from that person from the previous day?

FOR EXAMPLE:
Day 2:
X whispered to Y
X Whispered to Z
Y Whispered to X
A Whispered to B
Night 2:
You decided to read X's whispers from the previous day
X whispered to Y: Hey, I know you're witch
X whispered to Z: I'm no mafia!
Y Whispered to X: Hellz yeah mah mafioso broso!

Interesting idea. I like it, but it's past midnight right now so I'll review it more tomorrow.

yousername wrote:ALSO!

Even from the lore perspective, the Blackmailer reading whispers makes sense.
1.) Blackmailers work with secrets, right? How are you supposed to use secrets against people if they keep their secrets from you!
2.) Blackmailers don't instantly get lynched when an investigator hits them and they can't do a spy test.

Yep. The only reason that Spy/Blackmailer is still a pair in this results list is because it now actually works.

yousername wrote:ANOTHER NOTE!

if we're getting the useless roles out of ranked then disguiser shouldn't be roll-able

As much as I can see where you're coming from, Disguiser is now less useless than before, although it is still quite situational, sadly (as is the Framer). However, I'd rather give it a passive ability than remove it entirely, because removing ANY Mafia role right now (except MAYBE Framer) would be incredibly disastrous to any Investigator results list. Replace it? Fine. Remove it? No thanks.


PolyesterHomes wrote:The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.

Really.

Jester in no way prevents mass lynches IN RANKED. People in Ranked are either in high enough Elo that they won't be random lynching or low enough that they're too bad for it to matter. Jester is just Freelo to the person that rolls it and a deterrent to smart play. It stalls the game, nothing more. Just because that helps the evils doesn't mean that it's good; in this case, it lowers the skill ceiling of the game, which is bad.

Survivors force people to "play politics"? Don't make me laugh. They are inherently scum-leaning, yet all they do is waste a kill or a lynch, because neither side can afford the loss the Survivor turning against them brings. The only "politics" involved with Survivors is being nice and/or begging on your figurative knees so that they may be more likely to side with you. It promotes kingmaker scenarios and lets an unaligned Neutral role decide entire games. In no way is this "crucial", and in every way does it unbalance the game.

Amnesiacs, on the other hand, are literally free Townies. I've seen less than 10 Amnesiacs join the Neutrals or the Mafia in all of my Ranked games, because that is a terrible strategy. Investigators hardcounter any "freedom" to choose a side Amnesiacs have, and they essentially force kingmakers days in advance. Amnesiacs are almost as swingy as Survivors, with the only reason they're not more swingy being that it is terrible Amnesiac play 9 times out of 10, and most of the remaining 10% is still worse than joining Town.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.

No, they don't. Yes, convincing people of your innocence as scum is a big part of the game. However, begging the NBs for your win is NOT the type of "silver-tongued" discussion that the game needs.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.

What reason is that? Promoting kingmakers? Plus, the "lore" is that he leaves the Town. The only other alternative to this that I've thought of is removing its night immunity after it hangs its target AND making it so that the Town must kill Executioners to win (basically Exe has Witch wincons, except it doesn't use them to win). This would keep its vote for the scum and get rid of the "lynch my target for a night immune Townie" idea; however, it can still side with Town after hanging its target if it really wants to, which is a problem because at that point it's not gamethrowing like a Witch siding with Town would be. So.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.

If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)

Really.

Balance > Lore
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Mon Dec 28, 2015 5:36 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.

Really.

Jester in no way prevents mass lynches IN RANKED. People in Ranked are either in high enough Elo that they won't be random lynching or low enough that they're too bad for it to matter. Jester is just Freelo to the person that rolls it and a deterrent to smart play. It stalls the game, nothing more. Just because that helps the evils doesn't mean that it's good; in this case, it lowers the skill ceiling of the game, which is bad.

Survivors force people to "play politics"? Don't make me laugh. They are inherently scum-leaning, yet all they do is waste a kill or a lynch, because neither side can afford the loss the Survivor turning against them brings. The only "politics" involved with Survivors is being nice and/or begging on your figurative knees so that they may be more likely to side with you. It promotes kingmaker scenarios and lets an unaligned Neutral role decide entire games. In no way is this "crucial", and in every way does it unbalance the game.

Amnesiacs, on the other hand, are literally free Townies. I've seen less than 10 Amnesiacs join the Neutrals or the Mafia in all of my Ranked games, because that is a terrible strategy. Investigators hardcounter any "freedom" to choose a side Amnesiacs have, and they essentially force kingmakers days in advance. Amnesiacs are almost as swingy as Survivors, with the only reason they're not more swingy being that it is terrible Amnesiac play 9 times out of 10, and most of the remaining 10% is still worse than joining Town.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.

No, they don't. Yes, convincing people of your innocence as scum is a big part of the game. However, begging the NBs for your win is NOT the type of "silver-tongued" discussion that the game needs.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.

What reason is that? Promoting kingmakers? Plus, the "lore" is that he leaves the Town. The only other alternative to this that I've thought of is removing its night immunity after it hangs its target AND making it so that the Town must kill Executioners to win (basically Exe has Witch wincons, except it doesn't use them to win). This would keep its vote for the scum and get rid of the "lynch my target for a night immune Townie" idea; however, it can still side with Town after hanging its target if it really wants to, which is a problem because at that point it's not gamethrowing like a Witch siding with Town would be. So.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.

If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)

Really.

Balance > Lore

Do you have any record that proves that survivors are scum leaning and that amnesiacs are free townies?
No, no you don't. You have no statistical evidence to prove these claims, the only evidence you have is anecdotal.
Balance > Lore is true, but in this case there is no need to change what you are claiming needs to be changed.
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PolyesterHomes wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.

There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.

Why?
The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.

Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.

Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.

Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.

Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.

If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)


Not in Ranked they aren't. NBs only serve to be swing factors. Surv? Free mafia vote. Lynch. Amne? Free townie. It doesn't really become a game of skill when the game gives one side a buff at random.

It's like random crits in TF2. There is a reason they are off in comp servers and any other server worth their salt. Do you like getting killed by a pellet that shouldn't have normally killed you? Likewise, do you like losing because of a kingmaker?

And are you saying the Spy shouldn't be changed? Are you daft?

No, I merely have common sense, you once more fail to provide evidence to prove Surv is a free mafia vote.
If you fail in a kingmaker, you have failed to convince the neutral faction to support you, and thus have failed to win the game of politics TOS is about.
A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.
As for the jester, only the daft would suggest removing the possibility of it from ranked. (See? Ad hominid attacks don't help either side.)


Both of you cannot prove that Survivor is always a free mafia vote, and amne is a free townie. All evidence you have presented in all threads I have seen is anecdotal in nature and changes due to circumstances. Please stop making pointless and ridiculous claims that cannot be proven.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby TrueGent » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:05 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.

^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:17 pm

TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.

^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh

No, it's why spy seeing Mafia chat shouldn't be removed.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby TrueGent » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:19 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:
TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.

^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh

No, it's why spy seeing Mafia chat shouldn't be removed.

If the Mafia can easily get around it then what does the Spy gain from having it?
Spoilers: its nothing
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:21 pm

TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:
TrueGent wrote:^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh

No, it's why spy seeing Mafia chat shouldn't be removed.

If the Mafia can easily get around it then what does the Spy gain from having it?
Spoilers: its nothing

But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.
Also, the Spy wouldn't be fulfilling its name if it didn't have this ability.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby TrueGent » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:26 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.

You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby hewhohasnoname » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:00 pm

TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.

You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.



seeing chat isn't useless

mafia chat basically gives away what roles they have in their arsenal

the quality of the spy determines their usefulness
they are easy to confirm and can distract mafia

not revealing until questioned can actually work to your advantage getting the mafia think they can get away with whispering while also seeing who they visit
taking away from the spy doesn't really make sense here. Its fun seeing what the mafia are up to and when I am the spy, My reports always make the mafia want to kill me
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby hewhohasnoname » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:02 pm

here is something that should be changed

Jailor can execute confirmed mayors

this needs to stop its a free game throw
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:03 pm

TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.

You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.

^This.

PolyesterHomes wrote:-reallybigsnipaboutNBs-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23378

Just wish something like this existed for amnesiac. I'd make one, but I'm on vacation.

At any rate, in high-level play Amnesiacs almost always side with Town because it is the smart thing to do. You are statistically more likely to win if you help the majority that also happens to be the most powerful faction by far right now.
Free Townie.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:07 pm

hewhohasnoname wrote:
TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.

You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.



seeing chat isn't useless

mafia chat basically gives away what roles they have in their arsenal

the quality of the spy determines their usefulness
they are easy to confirm and can distract mafia

not revealing until questioned can actually work to your advantage getting the mafia think they can get away with whispering while also seeing who they visit
taking away from the spy doesn't really make sense here. Its fun seeing what the mafia are up to and when I am the spy, My reports always make the mafia want to kill me

Giving away their roles is part of the problem. It causes the Mafia to clam up, which destroys high-level play.

It's not a good thing in any way. I know I've posted this before, but here it is again in case you missed it: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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