Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:52 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:Just make jester RNG haunt a random townie with executioner limitations.

Or not, because that doesn't fix the problems of it being a bastard role and stalling lynches. Still, that is better than the current Jester.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:54 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Just make jester RNG haunt a random townie with executioner limitations.

Or not, because that doesn't fix the problems of it being a bastard role and stalling lynches. Still, that is better than the current Jester.

"Neutral evil"
"Stalls votes"
Image
Spoiler: Metrion (1069 in RU Bracket)06/11/2019
@Ice Ready for 900 more koroks?
avi
User avatar
ICECLIMBERS
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
 
Posts: 3186
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:50 pm
Location: Eastern Time

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:58 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Just make jester RNG haunt a random townie with executioner limitations.

Or not, because that doesn't fix the problems of it being a bastard role and stalling lynches. Still, that is better than the current Jester.

"Neutral evil"
"Stalls votes"
Image

The point is that that isn't how a game is supposed to be balanced.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:03 pm

Ice is right.
And the role doesn't stall lynches, the town does.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 10042
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 15, 2015 5:10 pm

That's akin to saying that Spy reading Mafia chat doesn't reduce Mafia coordination, the Mafia does.

Edit: ICE, clarification please: does it RNG a random Townie, or a random Guilty-voting Townie?
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:40 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Just make jester RNG haunt a random townie with executioner limitations.

Or not, because that doesn't fix the problems of it being a bastard role and stalling lynches. Still, that is better than the current Jester.

That's why it's NE
orangeandblack5 wrote:That's akin to saying that Spy reading Mafia chat doesn't reduce Mafia coordination, the Mafia does

Any semi-competent Mafia can work without pasting the names of the Mafia in Mafia chat
So yes, it is the fault of the Mafia
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5587
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Resting (GMT)

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:48 am

ICECLIMBERS wrote:Just make jester RNG haunt a random townie with executioner limitations.

Wait, did you mean a random Townie, even if they didn't vote Guilty?
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:51 am

Tbh, rather then Jester being Neutral Benign (cause its evil, its existence is detriment to Town, but he can also hurt the evil roles, he goes against everyone, basically), I feel like Amnesiac should be Neutral Evil as well. Sure, most people would say - Amne doesnt kill... And sure. It does not. Right up till it becomes a Serial Killer. So its technically a role that is against everyone right up till it becomes a part of some allignment. Technically it screws over everyone equally. Considering Survivor is the same... yea, I really dont see NB and NE to be that different...

Only Executioner and Witch are a bit different - considering Exe needs to go against Town at first, to get his target hung - then its basically the same as Survivor. However Witch needs to go against Town specifically. Seems to me that Witch is more of a Neutral Chaos rather then Evil, and Executioner possibly as well - considering both need to go against specific faction.

Jester doesnt, neither does Amnesiac and Survivor. So, I kind of understand that suggestion to make Jester Neutral Benign. The only thing bad about that is that Benign name doesnt really fit. But Jester can decide to damage anyone, just like Amnesiac and Survivor. Executioner and Witch need to hurt the Town, specifically.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4888
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Wed Dec 16, 2015 9:55 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Just make jester RNG haunt a random townie with executioner limitations.

Wait, did you mean a random Townie, even if they didn't vote Guilty?

Why not? :)
But if A is the only guilty vote and they don't die, they're confirmed scum.
In the end it only hurts town.
Executioner limitations are to reduce swinginess, though it would still be a bit swingy.

Also I wouldn't consider the role bastard if it's known to all that it can roll. If nobody is aware that it would roll and it does, then you could make an argument for that.
You could argue though that a lot of ToS roles are bastard though.
Spoiler: Metrion (1069 in RU Bracket)06/11/2019
@Ice Ready for 900 more koroks?
avi
User avatar
ICECLIMBERS
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
 
Posts: 3186
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:50 pm
Location: Eastern Time

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:08 am

Mroz4k wrote:Tbh, rather then Jester being Neutral Benign (cause its evil, its existence is detriment to Town, but he can also hurt the evil roles, he goes against everyone, basically), I feel like Amnesiac should be Neutral Evil as well. Sure, most people would say - Amne doesnt kill... And sure. It does not. Right up till it becomes a Serial Killer. So its technically a role that is against everyone right up till it becomes a part of some allignment. Technically it screws over everyone equally. Considering Survivor is the same... yea, I really dont see NB and NE to be that different...

Only Executioner and Witch are a bit different - considering Exe needs to go against Town at first, to get his target hung - then its basically the same as Survivor. However Witch needs to go against Town specifically. Seems to me that Witch is more of a Neutral Chaos rather then Evil, and Executioner possibly as well - considering both need to go against specific faction.

Jester doesnt, neither does Amnesiac and Survivor. So, I kind of understand that suggestion to make Jester Neutral Benign. The only thing bad about that is that Benign name doesnt really fit. But Jester can decide to damage anyone, just like Amnesiac and Survivor. Executioner and Witch need to hurt the Town, specifically.


I think Orange doesn't really think about the name,he thinks about which role to group with which.

So having Exe and witch in the same group(I think its fine Neutral Evil)
and Sv.,Amne,Jester in a group(Maybe Neutral Selfish?)
I AM THE HERO THAT THIS FORUM DESERVES,BUT NOT THE ONE THAT IT NEEDS
User avatar
theo07
Framer
Framer
 
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Forum

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:39 am

I already changed it to "Neutral Unaligned".
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:43 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:I already changed it to "Neutral Unaligned".




That's good.I agree with your 1.5 Orange.
I AM THE HERO THAT THIS FORUM DESERVES,BUT NOT THE ONE THAT IT NEEDS
User avatar
theo07
Framer
Framer
 
Posts: 935
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: Forum

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:19 am

Did you really just call amnesiac neutral evil?

No. Once it remembers a role it is no longer benign.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 10042
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:34 am

Maybe put Jester and Exe in a seperate alignment, because they are the only roles that can win before the game ends
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5587
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Resting (GMT)

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Mroz4k » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:35 am

Nellyfox wrote:Did you really just call amnesiac neutral evil?

No. Once it remembers a role it is no longer benign.

It is no longer benign before that, either. The whole act of becoming a part of one faction means it hurts the other factions.

And I would call Survivor the same. Its not entirely "good", either - the whole act of staying neutral in this case means its not "good" yet, but not "bad" yet, either.

Unalligned sounds the most like it, tbh. Neither Amnesiac, nor Survivor, nor Jester favor any of the Allignments wrongfully untill they do (Survivor sides with one allignment, Amne remembers, Jester haunts a person). Executioner and Witch are by default pitted against the Town.

Its all about how you consider it. If you consider it from the side of "not going after any specific allignment from start of the game" Jester is much more similar to Survivor and Amnesiac, then its to Executioner and Witch. Hence, both the opinion to put it into allignment with Survivor and Amne, or keep it in allignment with Exe and Witch make sense.

I think the whole Neutrals should be re-structuralized, tbh. I dont think the NE and NB are the best sets.

Jester, Survivor and potentially Executioner together - once they are at the point of decision "who to side with", they can choose whomever they want. Amnesiac and Witch in different - considering Witch needs to screw the Town constantly, and Amnesiac needs to screw the opposite allignments then the one he chose to be. Once Amne picks, he cant choose different allignment anymore.

Exec is a bit of a wild-card here - he could be in both, tbh. Considering he needs to get Town member hung, he is from the start of the game against the Town, but can decide to join them once he gets his target hung up. But can change his decision at any time, too.

Or, IMO the best decision - just lump them all together. Really dont see the need to separate them - all are potentionally bad, but some of them can be good, too. Basically its Neutrals neutral / Neutral untrustworthy.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
Mroz4k
Vampire Hunter
Vampire Hunter
 
Posts: 4888
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:29 pm
Location: Away in the real world

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:39 am

Amnesiac, while as an amnesiac, is benign.
Once it remembers a role it is no longer an amnesiac.

Lynching a jester wastes town's time and provides mafia with an extra kill. It's the less evil of the NE suite but compared to something "benign" it's malevolent. I mean, benign basically means that the roles are just there. They're votes for any faction.
Spoiler: Metrion (1069 in RU Bracket)06/11/2019
@Ice Ready for 900 more koroks?
avi
User avatar
ICECLIMBERS
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
 
Posts: 3186
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:50 pm
Location: Eastern Time

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:06 pm

The definition of a neutral benign is a role with no set alignment until they choose to have one. Amnesiac fits that category.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 10042
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:16 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:Amnesiac, while as an amnesiac, is benign.
Once it remembers a role it is no longer an amnesiac.

Lynching a jester wastes town's time and provides mafia with an extra kill. It's the less evil of the NE suite but compared to something "benign" it's malevolent. I mean, benign basically means that the roles are just there. They're votes for any faction.

Oh yes, because Jester can definitely only kill Town.

On the other hand, Amne/Witch sounds WAY too swingy unless Amne can no longer remember Town roles.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:19 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
ICECLIMBERS wrote:Amnesiac, while as an amnesiac, is benign.
Once it remembers a role it is no longer an amnesiac.

Lynching a jester wastes town's time and provides mafia with an extra kill. It's the less evil of the NE suite but compared to something "benign" it's malevolent. I mean, benign basically means that the roles are just there. They're votes for any faction.

Oh yes, because Jester can definitely only kill Town.

Jester has a higher chance of killing a town member than any other faction unless you're playing with a rolelist in which maf and neutrals outnumber the town
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

User avatar
JazzMusicStops
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 5587
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:06 am
Location: Resting (GMT)

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:20 pm

[*]Neutral Benign: They win with everyone. They just want to choose their own path, as long as they live. That’s the basic mentality that you should follow when designing a benign. They do not need to kill anyone, as long as they get to see the end. The goal of anything categorized under this alignment is that they win with everyone, unless they’re capable of changing alignment like the Amnesiac. DO NOT make them capable of doing evil acts or killing. If they are capable of doing so, they are to be categorized under the respective neutral alignments.
[*]Neutral Evil: The people with an agenda that is up to no good. Their abilities usually have an evil theme and they will almost never get along with the Town. They’re not capable of direct killing, but they might be capable of doing so indirectly. When you design these roles, try to make them capable of acting on their own with an adequate amount of power. Be very thoughtful when designing goals and building their role around it, they need to have something to strafe after, like killing a certain faction or person.

^for reference
Spoiler: Metrion (1069 in RU Bracket)06/11/2019
@Ice Ready for 900 more koroks?
avi
User avatar
ICECLIMBERS
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
 
Posts: 3186
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:50 pm
Location: Eastern Time

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:23 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:
[*]Neutral Benign: They win with everyone. They just want to choose their own path, as long as they live. That’s the basic mentality that you should follow when designing a benign. They do not need to kill anyone, as long as they get to see the end. The goal of anything categorized under this alignment is that they win with everyone, unless they’re capable of changing alignment like the Amnesiac. DO NOT make them capable of doing evil acts or killing. If they are capable of doing so, they are to be categorized under the respective neutral alignments.
[*]Neutral Evil: The people with an agenda that is up to no good. Their abilities usually have an evil theme and they will almost never get along with the Town. They’re not capable of direct killing, but they might be capable of doing so indirectly. When you design these roles, try to make them capable of acting on their own with an adequate amount of power. Be very thoughtful when designing goals and building their role around it, they need to have something to strafe after, like killing a certain faction or person.

^for reference

Source please.

I could drop a Bible quote here, but it means nothing out of context.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:25 pm

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12887
I don't see why you're so... overeager about this. There's nothing wrong with people disagreeing with you.
Spoiler: Metrion (1069 in RU Bracket)06/11/2019
@Ice Ready for 900 more koroks?
avi
User avatar
ICECLIMBERS
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
[Forum Mafia VII] Winner
 
Posts: 3186
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2014 11:50 pm
Location: Eastern Time

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:31 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12887
I don't see why you're so... overeager about this. There's nothing wrong with people disagreeing with you.

1: That is in no way any sort of final verdict on role alignments. That same post says to not make conversion roles. Oh hey, look what's in the game! Not only that, but Neutral Benign no longer exists here. Next time just say that that is your opinion instead of dropping an unsourced quote.
2: I'm "overeager" about this because I'm trying to convince you guys that A: balance>lore, and B: this would be a good change. I can and do take disagreements all the time. Such is life, and that's more than fine. However, my arguing for my side is in no way a bad thing, or at least it shouldn't be.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:37 pm

Vampire exists because of Kickstarter...your argument isn't really good.
User avatar
Nellyfox
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
[Forum Mafia V] Winner
 
Posts: 10042
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 12:04 pm
Location: Glass Workstation

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:42 pm

Nellyfox wrote:Vampire exists because of Kickstarter...your argument isn't really good.

That was not my argument.

My argument is that the person that posted that, stickied or not, it not an ultimate guru on game balance, well-written as that post may be. Not only that, but you bring up a great point: the devs aren't that great at balancing a Mafia-type game either, or else Disguiser, Jester, Vampire, Vampire Hunter, and potentially Executioner wouldn't exist.
Image
SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
Image a a a a a
ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5468
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

PreviousNext

Return to Suggestions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests