Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby CAPTAINPHASMA123 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:14 am

Why is it that you keep insisting us that Lookout should be Town Protective? It is literally absurd and it is technically not a 'protective'. They do not protect a player from death and instead, receives information who visited them, which completely makes them as 'investigative'.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jun 29, 2016 4:38 am

You could always go read my previous posts on the matter. I'm not explaining myself again. Don't have time.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Whatziznem » Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:13 am

Reposting https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=34328&start=450#p1472702 cuz I think it was missed.

Whatziznem wrote:Interesting suggestions here, but a few things of note:

1) Arsonists are way stronger than Serial Killers with these changes. They'll lose to bad luck if they get investigated night one, but that's their only disadvantage versus SKs. (EDIT: Actually, is that even true? I don't know if Investigator priority is higher than Arsonist.) Any night past #1 they're damn near impossible to find with an Investigator, unlike an SK. Sheriffs can find them now, but they can already find SKs, so that doesn't make SKs any better than Arsos. The lack of douse notifications means Lookouts can no longer try to watch the non-doused townies to find the Arsonists. And SKs are usually screwed when they're jailed, whereas Arsos now don't even let town figure out that no one was doused the night they were jailed. That's a massive level of imbalance between the two NK roles. This is far and away the biggest complaint I have here. Really, finding an Arso under these rules is now basically up to luck or mayor-gaming. I don't mind a strong NK role, but having it in combination with a weak one is silly.

2) Amnesiacs under these rule changes are gonna have overwhelmingly high win rates. Since they can now join Mafia with more impunity than before, this is mostly a buff to the Mafia's win rate, which is fine in terms of faction balance, but for individual player win rates this is gonna skew things a bit. Basically an Amnesiac game would have to be a +1[win] -7[lose] ELO change or something similarly ridiculous, making Amnesiac games really #FeelsBadMan since you know you'll never gain any reasonable amount of ELO relative to the time spent playing.

3) Some of the Werewolf change suggestions are too complex to work with Jailors. So, what, jailing a WW gets you killed unless the WW killed two people the night before? Or it doesn't get you killed on an odd night unless the WW didn't kill two people the previous night? Really wonky rules there.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PoptartPresident » Wed Jul 06, 2016 9:38 pm

I absolutely LOVE orangeandblack's wants!!
And while yes, I do disagree with a few things, I do feel like he's attempting to inform changes that need to be made to this game already! After playing this game over 2000 times according to my victory/loses/draws, I do feel like some roles and better than others. And I do agree with a majority of the change ideas.
ESPCIALLY THE ONE ABOUT THE GODFATHER GETTING TO CHOOSE WHO GETS PROMOTED NEXT. I WOULD LOVE THAT SO MUCH BECAUSE SOME MAFIA MEMBERS ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS!!

Way to go dude!
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:23 pm

Spoiler:
Whatziznem wrote:Err, that's a rather inflated percentage. >_> Revealing yourself through a Vigilante death note with a possible Witch in the game is a BadIdea™, fr'ex.

Veterans obviously should always reveal cuz it's ridiculously hard to do anything to a Veteran.

Interesting suggestions here, but a few things of note:

1) Arsonists are way stronger than Serial Killers with these changes. They'll lose to bad luck if they get investigated night one, but that's their only disadvantage versus SKs. (EDIT: Actually, is that even true? I don't know if Investigator priority is higher than Arsonist.) Any night past #1 they're damn near impossible to find with an Investigator, unlike an SK. Sheriffs can find them now, but they can already find SKs, so that doesn't make SKs any better than Arsos. The lack of douse notifications means Lookouts can no longer try to watch the non-doused townies to find the Arsonists. And SKs are usually screwed when they're jailed, whereas Arsos now don't even let town figure out that no one was doused the night they were jailed. That's a massive level of imbalance between the two NK roles. This is far and away the biggest complaint I have here. Really, finding an Arso under these rules is now basically up to luck or mayor-gaming. I don't mind a strong NK role, but having it in combination with a weak one is silly.

2) Amnesiacs under these rule changes are gonna have overwhelmingly high win rates. Since they can now join Mafia with more impunity than before, this is mostly a buff to the Mafia's win rate, which is fine in terms of faction balance, but for individual player win rates this is gonna skew things a bit. Basically an Amnesiac game would have to be a +1[win] -7[lose] ELO change or something similarly ridiculous, making Amnesiac games really #FeelsBadMan since you know you'll never gain any reasonable amount of ELO relative to the time spent playing.

3) Some of the Werewolf change suggestions are too complex to work with Jailors. So, what, jailing a WW gets you killed unless the WW killed two people the night before? Or it doesn't get you killed on an odd night unless the WW didn't kill two people the previous night? Really wonky rules there.
Not gonna discuss your removal of Neutral Unaligned (and Jesters) from the Ranked role-list, since I've seen posts from you that are so adamant about these changes that there's clearly no convincing you of how wrong you are on this front. :P
EDIT: Oh, I just realized my #2 complaint is incompatible with this statement, because you don't want Amnesiacs in Ranked. I guess I'll address this in a bit, then.

1: SK will certainly remain stronger because it actually consistently kills. Arsonist does not. Making it a source of panic and fear is the only way to keep it balanced. Plus, Investigator is incredibly solid right now. This won't do too much to it.
2: Yeah, Amne should never be in Ranked. Making it less town sided and more open to free choice is just common sense.
3: I mean it could work that the Werewolf doesn't kill roleblockers ever, that it only does if it would otherwise kill, or that it always does. That would need to be chosen through in-game testing, however. It can't be accurately theorized how much that might affect game balance and in what subtle ways.
4: If you can give a new reason that nobody has used yet to argue why the Neutral Benign slot (a.k.a. "Do Nothing" slot) should remain in Ranked, I'll think it over. That being said, most of the arguments given so far are kind of nonsensical. Every role should be in Ranked? With Vampires and Vampire Hunters and that semi-confirmed Zombie role? No thank you.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Whatziznem » Thu Jul 07, 2016 8:33 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:1: SK will certainly remain stronger because it actually consistently kills. Arsonist does not. Making it a source of panic and fear is the only way to keep it balanced. Plus, Investigator is incredibly solid right now. This won't do too much to it.
2: Yeah, Amne should never be in Ranked. Making it less town sided and more open to free choice is just common sense.
3: I mean it could work that the Werewolf doesn't kill roleblockers ever, that it only does if it would otherwise kill, or that it always does. That would need to be chosen through in-game testing, however. It can't be accurately theorized how much that might affect game balance and in what subtle ways.
4: If you can give a new reason that nobody has used yet to argue why the Neutral Benign slot (a.k.a. "Do Nothing" slot) should remain in Ranked, I'll think it over. That being said, most of the arguments given so far are kind of nonsensical. Every role should be in Ranked? With Vampires and Vampire Hunters and that semi-confirmed Zombie role? No thank you.

The Arsonist's lack of immediate killing isn't a problem with these changes, though. It's actually a huge strength to be able to kill everyone all at once later on. The reason that's normally a risk is that the Investigator can eventually find the Arsonist before he gets to ignite, but with doused targets showing up as potential Arsos, that's basically impossible. The Serial Killer, on the other hand, just shrinks the pool of potential suspects over time until he inevitably gets lynched by the Mafia majority he's helped to create. It should also be noted that the Arsonist isn't actually "a source of panic and fear" if no one even knows (s)he is doused until the game abruptly ends as 8 townies go up in flames. I just don't see how you expect Arsonists ever to lose with this setup, except when the Mafia manages to find them (and, even then, they'll have to ensure they haven't found an Executioner).

Survivors and Executioners (EDIT: typo) getting to play kingmaker just makes for unfun situations that aren't skill-testing at all. I agree 100%. But I really do like the existence of Jesters as a role and don't see why you want to move them to Neutral Benign. They add a chaotic element to the game that the Mafia can exploit (at least once Transporters stop being able to transport Jester guilt) to kill off a town member, and they make for lots of interesting decisions. Town: "Do we have the Jailor or Vigilante shoot this guy tonight, with the risk that the Werewolf attacks him and thus we lose a town killing/power role, or do we lynch him and possibly lose a townie anyway if he's a Jester?" Mafia: "Who do we attack tonight, given that there's a chance the Jester kills one of the people who voted Guilty? We could waste a kill if we hit one who's gonna die anyway, but the Bodyguard is probably not going to defend any of the Guilty voters either..." etc, etc. Perhaps most importantly, they make early lynches a lot more risky and often force the Jailor to waste a night and an execution on a non-Mafia member.

Of course, I guess the main issue really is just that the Jailor is a disgusting role. Who the fuck thought that a role which roleblocks better than an Escort (hitting RB-immune targets), kills better than a Vigilante (killing night-immune targets), defends a target better than a Doctor (protecting even from Arsonists), and essentially séances a living target every night, ALL AT ONCE, was reasonable? The game would be almost balanced in its current state if you just removed Jailors and Spies from the game entirely. They're just stupid roles. But the existence of the Jester helps keep Jailors a little bit busier, at least, in addition to its other usage for the Mafia.
Last edited by Whatziznem on Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jul 07, 2016 9:31 am

People know when an Arsonist has doused, just not who is doused.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Tigerleap » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:44 pm

Changes I agree with: Blackmailer, Disguiser, Doctor, Bodyguard, Vigilante, Veteran, Jailor, Forger, Godfather, Witch.
Changes I PARTLY agree with: Sheriff, Arsonist, Transporter, Investigator Changes.
(Sheriff finding WWs on non-full moon nights? I think that's a bit OP.)
Changes I disagree with: Spy, Framer, Lookout, Amnesiac, Executioner, Werewolf, Alignment Changes, Jester, Role List Changes, Mayor, Retributionist, Gamemode Changes.
(The Werewolf change is completely unnecessary, it should remain how it is. Also, think there should be no Town Power or any alignment changes.)

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby monkeymacman » Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:57 pm

I agree with the changes of: Spy - can't read Mafia night chat, Blackmailer, Framer - frame mafia, visits not show up to spy, Disguiser, Doctor, NOT LOOKOUT, Bodyguard, Vig - can't shoot revealed mayor, Not Vet, Not Jailor, Arsonist (except for them being detectable by sheriff, unless all doused targets appear as arsonist, which could also be a mafia buff), Sheriff - can not detect framed mafia, Amnesiac (although I do think it should show that the amne has remembered a role, but not which role), Not trans, Executioner - can have spy as target, Forger, Gofather, Not WW, Witch,
NOT ALIGNMENT CHANGES NO NOT AT ALL NONE OF THAT NO, NOT JESTER, Not Invest Changes (besides this conflicts with the framer changes you suggested), Not ROLE LIST CHANGES NO WHY WOULD YOU EVEN SUGGEST THIS ONE (it needs a change but not the one suggested here), Not Mayor (besides maybe only 2 votes), Retrib, and I don't think VH needs a change it should just be completely removed, then vamps having no change other than bites counting towards the draw counter as kills, and vamps being able to kill mafia. I also do agree with the Chaotic Custom.

To be clear, I think that vig should have a death note for the primary reason of explaining why they shot them (or that they didn't shoot and that witch controlled them). Same reasoning for Jailor death note. I suppose maybe vet death note should be removed, but meh, that wouldn't change things as vet can still find ways to confirm themselves (such as whispering before vet kill messaging info about the deaths), although writing this makes me think of another change that could be implemented, not being able to whisper before everybody is finished dying, that removes the definite confirmability of a few roles.

As for my stance on the role list, no chance of NB at all? Not even an Any? With 0 chance of Jester you hugely buff the town, as they are not scared to lynch anybody. Why should NB not be possible, anyways? It seems like you stand on this because it removes Kingmaker scenarios, but if people don't want to worry about kingmaker scenarios then they should just try to kill off the possible kingmaker (besides, amne isn't much of a kingmaker). Of course besides this one of the big reasons why I don't like the role list is because it includes town power, which I do not agree with at all in any way.

Also, i'd like to put my input on a possible change, I'm not entirely sure how town sided or not the suggested changes would make it (I would assume not much different then it is now), but to nerf town as for how powerful they are right now, maybe not allow town protectives to target the same person twice in a row (NOT INCLUDING LOOKOUTS AS TP BECAUSE NO WHY).

Of course another possibility for the ranked role list (or maybe another gamemode that is ranked but different, not sure of a name), is that there would be multiple possible role-lists, and every week or so, it changes to a different random role-list out of the different lists in the cycle. This would make ranked not only about how good you are in any particular role list, but rather how good you can be in any approved, balanced role list.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jul 08, 2016 8:31 pm

NB is destabilizing, and the Town shouldn't be afraid to lynch. That's just stupid.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:18 am

Personally, I don't see why Jester is a problem. You're getting rid of a scum vote, and in exchange they kill town. One for One trade = town sided. And God help you if you're scum and the jester haunts one of you.

I'd be more than happy to lynch a jester, unless there's a better lynch or something.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby RoastedAsparagus » Fri Jul 22, 2016 9:07 am

I'd like somewhat of a Retributionist buff.
For example, after resurrecting someone, it could say, "After resurrecting, they showed you the secrets for talking to the dead!"

After that, you become a Medium with no Seance. Because, after you resurrect, you become a vanilla townie. You don't have any abilities, and it's really boring.
Also, becoming a Medium won't completely throw off the evil roles, and you also don't have a Seance.

I feel like Ret needs this, instead of becoming a sitting duck.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:37 pm

RoastedAsparagus wrote:I'd like somewhat of a Retributionist buff.
For example, after resurrecting someone, it could say, "After resurrecting, they showed you the secrets for talking to the dead!"

After that, you become a Medium with no Seance. Because, after you resurrect, you become a vanilla townie. You don't have any abilities, and it's really boring.
Also, becoming a Medium won't completely throw off the evil roles, and you also don't have a Seance.

I feel like Ret needs this, instead of becoming a sitting duck.

Ret is not a "sitting duck" - you can still be useful.

A revive is arguably the most powerful ability in the game.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby monkeymacman » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:59 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
RoastedAsparagus wrote:I'd like somewhat of a Retributionist buff.
For example, after resurrecting someone, it could say, "After resurrecting, they showed you the secrets for talking to the dead!"

After that, you become a Medium with no Seance. Because, after you resurrect, you become a vanilla townie. You don't have any abilities, and it's really boring.
Also, becoming a Medium won't completely throw off the evil roles, and you also don't have a Seance.

I feel like Ret needs this, instead of becoming a sitting duck.

Ret is not a "sitting duck" - you can still be useful.

A revive is arguably the most powerful ability in the game.


He means after they revive, either way I don't think Ret needs a buff, it's fine how it is now.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 2:52 pm

monkeymacman wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:
RoastedAsparagus wrote:I'd like somewhat of a Retributionist buff.
For example, after resurrecting someone, it could say, "After resurrecting, they showed you the secrets for talking to the dead!"

After that, you become a Medium with no Seance. Because, after you resurrect, you become a vanilla townie. You don't have any abilities, and it's really boring.
Also, becoming a Medium won't completely throw off the evil roles, and you also don't have a Seance.

I feel like Ret needs this, instead of becoming a sitting duck.

Ret is not a "sitting duck" - you can still be useful.

A revive is arguably the most powerful ability in the game.


He means after they revive, either way I don't think Ret needs a buff, it's fine how it is now.

My first point addresses that. You can still be useful.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby factoftheday » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:24 pm

The Ret should not come back if hung. only killed at night.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:36 pm

factoftheday wrote:The Ret should not come back if hung. only killed at night.

Why?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby factoftheday » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:18 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
factoftheday wrote:The Ret should not come back if hung. only killed at night.

Why?


If town/jailor kills inno you you should not gain from that. who ever claimed ret would just get hung to prove it and it would all be cancer.

like the vigi shoots him self, or jailor cant kill.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:19 pm

That is the easiest way to waste a revive I've ever seen.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Emzee » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:15 am

Is this ACTUALLY going to be the 1.5 updates???
Because of so I am not sure I am too happy with some.
And I am over joyed with others!
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby superdog551 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:22 am

Emzee wrote:Is this ACTUALLY going to be the 1.5 updates???
Because of so I am not sure I am too happy with some.
And I am over joyed with others!


I agree, I was a bit upset with some of the changes, but I loved the bmer seeing whispers. I think in the end the nerfed roles and such are better that way though :D
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:23 am

This is a suggestion

Not patch notes

Please read the OP
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:26 am

Emzee wrote:Is this ACTUALLY going to be the 1.5 updates???
Because of so I am not sure I am too happy with some.
And I am over joyed with others!



It's not,however changes that will be made in 1.5 are inspired by Orange

I will quickly put the changes about the roles :

Bm can read whispers;Mayor can't whisper or receive whispers after revealing;if a vampire tries to bite a mafia member,the mafia member will die(instead of nothing)

Edit:And this inv. results will be added: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46702
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby superdog551 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:28 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:This is a suggestion

Not patch notes

Please read the OP


Ooooh thats embarrassing, I thought I was responding to the 1.5 preview thread :oops:

Sorry for any confusion on my part :O
joaodasalmas wrote:Abilities: You can reveal yourself as the King Potato, and now you can't be voted.
AegonSnow wrote:Ability: Visit a person during the night and have an sex-filled orgy with everyone there.

Check out my role ideas!
The Sacrificer! Kills a Town Member and an Evil!
Werewolf Overhaul! A nice change to make the Werewolf more powerful!

In-game my name is Jay
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Aug 03, 2016 1:29 am

No problem. I knew you at least had just gotten them mixed up. :D
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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