Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

[Tigerleap]

One: That is literally a flavor text complaint
Two: No it doesn't, Jailor is Town Power too

My thoughts: Actually, you're right. However, Retributionist should not be Town Power, it should just be Mayor and Jailor- that would have a possitive effect on gameplay.

[Kirize12]

Retributionist is one of the most powerful roles in the game. People have been trying to nerf it.

[mihail66]

Yesterday a confirmation was given by a moderator in the "Ask question" section that the mayor is getting nurfed, not buffed. Too bad that i actually liked playing as Mayor.

[Tigerleap]

Why is Lookout Town Protective? I get that it can find out who killed someone, but it doesn't protect that person from death, like Doctor and Bodyguard. A lookout watching someone won't save their life, but find out who killed them, so I don't get why it would need to be a Town Protective role. Its purpose is to find out who people's roles are, making it Town Investigative.

[orangeandblack5]

If another Town Protective role is added, it will be swapped back.

That being said, Lookout is literally a protective role at its core. The end result is sinply different (notifications instead of actual protection).

[Tigerleap]

If another Town Protective role is added, it will be swapped back.

That being said, Lookout is literally a protective role at its core. The end result is sinply different (notifications instead of actual protection).

In the Town of Salem Wiki, it says "Town Protectives are a group of people in the town that side with the Townies. Each night, they protect others from dying - or, once per game, potentially themselves."
Lookout does not meet these requirements.
However, it does meet the Town Investigative requirements: "Town Investigative are the alignment of those individuals in the town who side with the townies. They are able to gather information on the roles or actions of other players, which would eventually help them judge which players are their friends, enemies, and possible detractors."

[orangeandblack5]

That's a fan-made wiki. I fail to see any point. Especially since I could change those descriptions myself.

[Tigerleap]

That's a fan-made wiki. I fail to see any point. Especially since I could change those descriptions myself.

*sigh*
I'm just going to ask you the obvious question once again...
What does Town Protective do? PROTECT! It's in the name... How do you fail to see this somehow? Town Protective PROTECTS people from dying. What happens if a Bodyguard protects someone? THEY DON'T DIE! What happens if a Doctor heals someone? THEY DON'T DIE! But what happens if a Lookout watches someone? They DO die if they are attacked regardless of whether a Lookout visits them or not. Do you someone NOT see that somehow? Like, ask anyone if Lookout should be Town Protective, and they will say no because it doesn't protect. If you do reply to this, once again disagreeing with me, I will simply not reply again, because no one in their right mind would agree that Lookout protects people from dying.

[orangeandblack5]

Are you asking a question or trying to start an argument?

[Tigerleap]

According to orangeandblack5's 1.5 suggestions, Lookout's alignment should be Town Protective. Should it?

[RetralMega]

No.
It doesn't save anyone therefore it can't be a Protective.

[Nellyfox]

Noooooo.

Lookout would be a terrible Town Protective role. His giant 1.5 thread was created way before the devs announced all the stuff coming to the official 1.5.0 patch, and I'm sure I can safely say not everything will be apart of that.

His thread was a big overhaul of the game, but check the dates of the threads.

[Tigerleap]

Are you asking a question or trying to start an argument?

Just read this. http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=45646
It has answers coming from other people proving you wrong, because apparently, no matter what I say, you will disagree with me. Read it.

[orangeandblack5]

Oh wow

A thread with replies from two people that think you're confused about what's in the next update, both of whom have already given their thoughts in this thread (you know, the thread you're in right now, where you're supposed to talk about my suggestion instead of making an entirely seperate post to discuss a small part of my suggestion omnibus in an attempt to feed your ego).

I'm so impressed I think I just changed my mind

[orangeandblack5]

Just gonna ask for this to be merged with my thread.

Why make a separate thread to discuss my suggestion?

(@Nelly he knows it's a suggestion and not part of the actual update, he just really wants to be "proven right" on a nonissue)

[RetralMega]

Just gonna ask for this to be merged with my thread.

Why make a separate thread to discuss my suggestion?

(@Nelly he knows it's a suggestion and not part of the actual update, he just really wants to be "proven right" on a nonissue)

... Your thread is called 'Town of Salem 1.5'. It could be easily misinterpreted by someone who doesn't frequent the forums or know who anyone is.

[orangeandblack5]

Just gonna ask for this to be merged with my thread.

Why make a separate thread to discuss my suggestion?

(@Nelly he knows it's a suggestion and not part of the actual update, he just really wants to be "proven right" on a nonissue)

... Your thread is called 'Town of Salem 1.5'. It could be easily misinterpreted by someone who doesn't frequent the forums or know who anyone is.

But that isn't what happened here. Read anything he's posted recently in my ToS 1.5 thread.

Plus he said "should" twice.

[Tigerleap]

Oh wow

A thread with replies from two people that think you're confused about what's in the next update, both of whom have already given their thoughts in this thread (you know, the thread you're in right now, where you're supposed to talk about my suggestion instead of making an entirely seperate post to discuss a small part of my suggestion omnibus in an attempt to feed your ego).

I'm so impressed I think I just changed my mind

I'm sorry, alright. I didn't mean to take this pointless argument so far. This wouldn't have been added into the game anyway, since this wasn't an official announcement thread, and was posted before the official preview. I just couldn't stand seeing something like that being added into the game. You're the one that's right here. I shouldn't have made a discussion page about this in a separate thread, either. I hope that after this we can all be cool.

[orangeandblack5]

Yeah. You're allowed to think what I suggest is the stupidest thing you've ever heard, and you're allowed to tell me, but don't go trying to get other people to back you up when this has already been discussed in the past.

Plus, as I said, if another Town Protective role is added at any point I'm moving Lookout back. The problem is that right now Town Protective is too consistent, and this needs changing.

[CAPTAINPHASMA123]

Why is it that you keep insisting us that Lookout should be Town Protective? It is literally absurd and it is technically not a 'protective'. They do not protect a player from death and instead, receives information who visited them, which completely makes them as 'investigative'.

[orangeandblack5]

You could always go read my previous posts on the matter. I'm not explaining myself again. Don't have time.

[Whatziznem]

Reposting https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=34328&start=450#p1472702 cuz I think it was missed.

Interesting suggestions here, but a few things of note:

1) Arsonists are way stronger than Serial Killers with these changes. They'll lose to bad luck if they get investigated night one, but that's their only disadvantage versus SKs. (EDIT: Actually, is that even true? I don't know if Investigator priority is higher than Arsonist.) Any night past #1 they're damn near impossible to find with an Investigator, unlike an SK. Sheriffs can find them now, but they can already find SKs, so that doesn't make SKs any better than Arsos. The lack of douse notifications means Lookouts can no longer try to watch the non-doused townies to find the Arsonists. And SKs are usually screwed when they're jailed, whereas Arsos now don't even let town figure out that no one was doused the night they were jailed. That's a massive level of imbalance between the two NK roles. This is far and away the biggest complaint I have here. Really, finding an Arso under these rules is now basically up to luck or mayor-gaming. I don't mind a strong NK role, but having it in combination with a weak one is silly.

2) Amnesiacs under these rule changes are gonna have overwhelmingly high win rates. Since they can now join Mafia with more impunity than before, this is mostly a buff to the Mafia's win rate, which is fine in terms of faction balance, but for individual player win rates this is gonna skew things a bit. Basically an Amnesiac game would have to be a +1[win] -7[lose] ELO change or something similarly ridiculous, making Amnesiac games really #FeelsBadMan since you know you'll never gain any reasonable amount of ELO relative to the time spent playing.

3) Some of the Werewolf change suggestions are too complex to work with Jailors. So, what, jailing a WW gets you killed unless the WW killed two people the night before? Or it doesn't get you killed on an odd night unless the WW didn't kill two people the previous night? Really wonky rules there.

[PoptartPresident]

I absolutely LOVE orangeandblack's wants!!
And while yes, I do disagree with a few things, I do feel like he's attempting to inform changes that need to be made to this game already! After playing this game over 2000 times according to my victory/loses/draws, I do feel like some roles and better than others. And I do agree with a majority of the change ideas.
ESPCIALLY THE ONE ABOUT THE GODFATHER GETTING TO CHOOSE WHO GETS PROMOTED NEXT. I WOULD LOVE THAT SO MUCH BECAUSE SOME MAFIA MEMBERS ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS!!

Way to go dude!

[orangeandblack5]

Spoiler:

Err, that's a rather inflated percentage. >_> Revealing yourself through a Vigilante death note with a possible Witch in the game is a BadIdea™, fr'ex.

Veterans obviously should always reveal cuz it's ridiculously hard to do anything to a Veteran.

Interesting suggestions here, but a few things of note:

1) Arsonists are way stronger than Serial Killers with these changes. They'll lose to bad luck if they get investigated night one, but that's their only disadvantage versus SKs. (EDIT: Actually, is that even true? I don't know if Investigator priority is higher than Arsonist.) Any night past #1 they're damn near impossible to find with an Investigator, unlike an SK. Sheriffs can find them now, but they can already find SKs, so that doesn't make SKs any better than Arsos. The lack of douse notifications means Lookouts can no longer try to watch the non-doused townies to find the Arsonists. And SKs are usually screwed when they're jailed, whereas Arsos now don't even let town figure out that no one was doused the night they were jailed. That's a massive level of imbalance between the two NK roles. This is far and away the biggest complaint I have here. Really, finding an Arso under these rules is now basically up to luck or mayor-gaming. I don't mind a strong NK role, but having it in combination with a weak one is silly.

2) Amnesiacs under these rule changes are gonna have overwhelmingly high win rates. Since they can now join Mafia with more impunity than before, this is mostly a buff to the Mafia's win rate, which is fine in terms of faction balance, but for individual player win rates this is gonna skew things a bit. Basically an Amnesiac game would have to be a +1[win] -7[lose] ELO change or something similarly ridiculous, making Amnesiac games really #FeelsBadMan since you know you'll never gain any reasonable amount of ELO relative to the time spent playing.

3) Some of the Werewolf change suggestions are too complex to work with Jailors. So, what, jailing a WW gets you killed unless the WW killed two people the night before? Or it doesn't get you killed on an odd night unless the WW didn't kill two people the previous night? Really wonky rules there.
Not gonna discuss your removal of Neutral Unaligned (and Jesters) from the Ranked role-list, since I've seen posts from you that are so adamant about these changes that there's clearly no convincing you of how wrong you are on this front.
EDIT: Oh, I just realized my #2 complaint is incompatible with this statement, because you don't want Amnesiacs in Ranked. I guess I'll address this in a bit, then.

1: SK will certainly remain stronger because it actually consistently kills. Arsonist does not. Making it a source of panic and fear is the only way to keep it balanced. Plus, Investigator is incredibly solid right now. This won't do too much to it.
2: Yeah, Amne should never be in Ranked. Making it less town sided and more open to free choice is just common sense.
3: I mean it could work that the Werewolf doesn't kill roleblockers ever, that it only does if it would otherwise kill, or that it always does. That would need to be chosen through in-game testing, however. It can't be accurately theorized how much that might affect game balance and in what subtle ways.
4: If you can give a new reason that nobody has used yet to argue why the Neutral Benign slot (a.k.a. "Do Nothing" slot) should remain in Ranked, I'll think it over. That being said, most of the arguments given so far are kind of nonsensical. Every role should be in Ranked? With Vampires and Vampire Hunters and that semi-confirmed Zombie role? No thank you.

[Whatziznem]

1: SK will certainly remain stronger because it actually consistently kills. Arsonist does not. Making it a source of panic and fear is the only way to keep it balanced. Plus, Investigator is incredibly solid right now. This won't do too much to it.
2: Yeah, Amne should never be in Ranked. Making it less town sided and more open to free choice is just common sense.
3: I mean it could work that the Werewolf doesn't kill roleblockers ever, that it only does if it would otherwise kill, or that it always does. That would need to be chosen through in-game testing, however. It can't be accurately theorized how much that might affect game balance and in what subtle ways.
4: If you can give a new reason that nobody has used yet to argue why the Neutral Benign slot (a.k.a. "Do Nothing" slot) should remain in Ranked, I'll think it over. That being said, most of the arguments given so far are kind of nonsensical. Every role should be in Ranked? With Vampires and Vampire Hunters and that semi-confirmed Zombie role? No thank you.

The Arsonist's lack of immediate killing isn't a problem with these changes, though. It's actually a huge strength to be able to kill everyone all at once later on. The reason that's normally a risk is that the Investigator can eventually find the Arsonist before he gets to ignite, but with doused targets showing up as potential Arsos, that's basically impossible. The Serial Killer, on the other hand, just shrinks the pool of potential suspects over time until he inevitably gets lynched by the Mafia majority he's helped to create. It should also be noted that the Arsonist isn't actually "a source of panic and fear" if no one even knows (s)he is doused until the game abruptly ends as 8 townies go up in flames. I just don't see how you expect Arsonists ever to lose with this setup, except when the Mafia manages to find them (and, even then, they'll have to ensure they haven't found an Executioner).

Survivors and Executioners (EDIT: typo) getting to play kingmaker just makes for unfun situations that aren't skill-testing at all. I agree 100%. But I really do like the existence of Jesters as a role and don't see why you want to move them to Neutral Benign. They add a chaotic element to the game that the Mafia can exploit (at least once Transporters stop being able to transport Jester guilt) to kill off a town member, and they make for lots of interesting decisions. Town: "Do we have the Jailor or Vigilante shoot this guy tonight, with the risk that the Werewolf attacks him and thus we lose a town killing/power role, or do we lynch him and possibly lose a townie anyway if he's a Jester?" Mafia: "Who do we attack tonight, given that there's a chance the Jester kills one of the people who voted Guilty? We could waste a kill if we hit one who's gonna die anyway, but the Bodyguard is probably not going to defend any of the Guilty voters either..." etc, etc. Perhaps most importantly, they make early lynches a lot more risky and often force the Jailor to waste a night and an execution on a non-Mafia member.

Of course, I guess the main issue really is just that the Jailor is a disgusting role. Who the fuck thought that a role which roleblocks better than an Escort (hitting RB-immune targets), kills better than a Vigilante (killing night-immune targets), defends a target better than a Doctor (protecting even from Arsonists), and essentially séances a living target every night, ALL AT ONCE, was reasonable? The game would be almost balanced in its current state if you just removed Jailors and Spies from the game entirely. They're just stupid roles. But the existence of the Jester helps keep Jailors a little bit busier, at least, in addition to its other usage for the Mafia.