Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Juuhazan » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:58 pm

PolyesterHomes wrote:No, I merely have common sense, you once more fail to provide evidence to prove Surv is a free mafia vote. A vote not for town is a vote against town. People know this. This is common sense. I thought you had it.

If you fail in a kingmaker, you have failed to convince the neutral faction to support you, and thus have failed to win the game of politics TOS is about. Obviously a kingmaker isn't the whims of one player. You've figured out the meta, holy shit!

A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy. Do tell, I'd like to see how mafia twiddles their thumbs around in morse.

As for the jester, only the daft would suggest removing the possibility of it from ranked. There are a lot of daft people who happen to be skilled in these forums then. And you call that an ad hominem? God you're a pansy.


Both of you cannot prove that Survivor is always a free mafia vote, and amne is a free townie. All evidence you have presented in all threads I have seen is anecdotal in nature and changes due to circumstances. Please stop making pointless and ridiculous claims that cannot be proven. We can't, and we do. That's the point, that's why people try to act preemptively to ensure that they have another body on their side.


I should have stopped when you brought real life to the equation
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:06 pm

Juuhazan wrote:A vote not for town is a vote against town. People know this. This is common sense. I thought you had it. >Assuming Survivors always vote against town. >Assuming Survivors never vote with town.
Obviously a kingmaker isn't the whims of one player. You've figured out the meta, holy shit! You can influence the whims of a given person.

Do tell, I'd like to see how mafia twiddles their thumbs around in morse. Well, you could always not call each other by name, and by give Spy junk information (Telling a Consort that doesn't exist to RB a person)

There are a lot of daft people who happen to be skilled in these forums then. And you call that an ad hominem? God you're a pansy. Just because they are skilled doesn't make them any less ignorant.

We can't, and we do. That's the point, that's why people try to act preemptively to ensure that they have another body on their side. What's you're point here?

I should have stopped when you brought real life to the equation I know! Curse me and my reason!


orangeandblack5 wrote:
Giving away their roles is part of the problem. It causes the Mafia to clam up, which destroys high-level play.

It's not a good thing in any way. I know I've posted this before, but here it is again in case you missed it: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374


Tell a Consort that isn't there to RB someone.
EZ work around.

orangeandblack5 wrote:
TrueGent wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.

You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.

^This.

PolyesterHomes wrote:-reallybigsnipaboutNBs-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23378

Just wish something like this existed for amnesiac. I'd make one, but I'm on vacation.

At any rate, in high-level play Amnesiacs almost always side with Town because it is the smart thing to do. You are statistically more likely to win if you help the majority that also happens to be the most powerful faction by far right now.
Free Townie.

Yes, there is strategic value in killing a Survivor, but Survivor's don't always side with mafia. Claiming they do is a gross misrepresentation of the reality. Survivors side with the side they think is going to win, getting them to side with you is as easy as convincing them of your inevitable victory.
Amnesiac is the same way, but needs a dead person. If there is no dead townie, then the Amnesiac will go for Mafia or a Neutral role so they have a chance at victory.

Oh, and most players never reach high level play. They usually get through low level and to mid level before moving on.
Last edited by Naru2008 on Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please don't triple-post. Merged.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:12 am

PolyesterHomes wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:
Giving away their roles is part of the problem. It causes the Mafia to clam up, which destroys high-level play.

It's not a good thing in any way. I know I've posted this before, but here it is again in case you missed it: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374


Tell a Consort that isn't there to RB someone.
EZ work around.

Which basically means that the Mafia, which cannot be nearly as coordinated as it was before, now instead feeds wrong information to the possible Spy.

Meaning that the Spy gains no real information from reading Mafia chat.

Meaning that removing Spy's ability to read Mafia chat doesn't nerf it at all.

Meaning that the only downside to removing its ability to read night chat is nothing.

And you're arguing against that why?

PolyesterHomes wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:
PolyesterHomes wrote:-reallybigsnipaboutNBs-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23378

Just wish something like this existed for amnesiac. I'd make one, but I'm on vacation.

At any rate, in high-level play Amnesiacs almost always side with Town because it is the smart thing to do. You are statistically more likely to win if you help the majority that also happens to be the most powerful faction by far right now.
Free Townie.

Yes, there is strategic value in killing a Survivor, but Survivor's don't always side with mafia. Claiming they do is a gross misrepresentation of the reality. Survivors side with the side they think is going to win, getting them to side with you is as easy as convincing them of your inevitable victory.
Amnesiac is the same way, but needs a dead person. If there is no dead townie, then the Amnesiac will go for Mafia or a Neutral role so they have a chance at victory.

1: I don't remember ever claiming that Survivor "always" sides with the Mafia. Only that it is much more likely to win with scum, and therefore high-level play sees Survivors side with scum much more often than not, to the point where many people (rightfully so) consider it an extra Mafia(/Neutral if Mafia gets wrecked) vote. Because high-level players understand this and act on it.

2: Amnesiac is even more Town-sided than Survivor is scum sided. For one, the chance of there being no dead Townie is almost 0%, excluding gamethrowers (which shouldn't be in high-level play anyways, so maybe not even then). Plus, even in your scenario, it would be better to wait for a dead Townie than hop on to the sinking ship that is an almost dead non-Town faction. Secondarily, Amnesiacs' choice of which side to join in broadcast to the entire town. Which faction will gain the most from this? Town. Because they have the majority and are (currently) the most powerful. Tertiarily, the Amnesiac can't even become two of the Mafia roles. The two that are confirmed to be in every game. The two that can be replaced by the other role(s) if they die first. Even with four Mafia, the Amnesiac can only remember to be, at most, half of the Mafia roles. On the other hand, the least amount of Town roles that can possibly be remembered in any one game is four. That may seem like "oh, that's half too, that's fine" at first, but that is far from the truth. Since we assumed that the Any was Mafia before, we must now assume that it is Town. That means that the Amnesiac can remember 5/9 Town roles and cannot remember 4/9 Town roles. This also assumes that three of the most powerful Town roles (Mayor, Retributionist, Veteran) are all concurrently rolled, which is unlikely; however, the roles that the Amnesiac cannot remember on the Mafia's side are not only guaranteed to spawn, but the roles it CAN remember will eventually become those roles anyways. These ratios get even worse if we drop the Any out of the equation (assume it's a Neutral). The Amnesiac can, at best, remember 1/3 Mafia roles, and at worst 0/3. However, it can remember at worst 4/8 Town roles, and at best 7/8 Town roles. Factoring in the fact that your choice is publicly broadcast to the entire Town, and you should be able to see why even if you're lucky enough to find a dead Mafia role that you can remember you wouldn't want to take the chance unless you really want to lose. Amnesiacs are swingier than Survivors, but in high-level play they almost always pick Town. For good reason.

PolyesterHomes wrote:Oh, and most players never reach high level play. They usually get through low level and to mid level before moving on.

This has no bearing on game balance. As per usual (look at literally any other competitive game that exists), you balance for high-level play. Or else you end up where ToS is and have most of your high-level players leave because they can't stand a game this imbalanced anymore.


Also, can you not triple-post please?
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Naru2008 » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:20 pm

Yes Poly, please don't triple-post. I've merged your posts. Next time, your multi-posts will be deleted instead.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Miass » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:29 pm

There are some buffs and nerfs that I agree with. There are also some buffs and nerfs that I disagree with. I could just list them all and point out why I think that said buff/nerf is a good idea or not, but with everybody (including the OP) attacking each other like a couple of rabid wolves chained together it's best for me not to give my opinion on this.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Juuhazan » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:37 pm

Miass wrote:There are some buffs and nerfs that I agree with. There are also some buffs and nerfs that I disagree with. I could just list them all and point out why I think that said buff/nerf is a good idea or not, but with everybody (including the OP) attacking each other like a couple of rabid wolves chained together it's best for me not to give my opinion on this.


Then why even post if you're not gonna contribute anything?
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Miass » Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:46 pm

Juuhazan wrote:
Miass wrote:There are some buffs and nerfs that I agree with. There are also some buffs and nerfs that I disagree with. I could just list them all and point out why I think that said buff/nerf is a good idea or not, but with everybody (including the OP) attacking each other like a couple of rabid wolves chained together it's best for me not to give my opinion on this.


Then why even post if you're not gonna contribute anything?


When people start criticizing someone's suggestion(s), they just wanna attack said criticism because they do not share their point of view. Instead of discussing it like gentle(wo)men, they would throw insults at one another and claim that they are right all the time. There are some of these suggestions that I agree with (the spy's abilities being disabled while they're dead because they're... well, dead) and some that I disagree with (giving the Mayor the ability to be healed by the doctor even if he/she has revealed himself. This one I disagree with because it defeats the purpose of the Mayor making a decision on as to whether or not he/she should risk his/her life to save the town, not to mention that the Doctor can heal him/her if he/she hasn't revealed himself/herself yet. Plus, once the Mayor's out of the shadows, everybody's gonna flock to him/her to protect/kill him/her. In my honest opinion, it should be the Mayor who enters the Neutral Benign section since anybody will try to kiss the Mayor's ass to get his/her support, but then that would defeat the purpose of Survivors, now would it?). This is just a snippet of what I have to say, and there could be more to come should I choose to continue.

Anyways, I think that the roles are perfect as is for now. The only way to start changing the role's attributes and abilities is when a new race/game mechanic is introduced. Until then, the game's perfect the way it is.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:35 pm

The main reason that I gave revealed Mayors the ability to reveal is BECAUSE it removes that questionability. It is still risky for a Mayor to reveal (neither Ret nor Jailor have to), just less so now. Which is important if it is going to be Town Power and therefore in the same category as Jailor. Jailor can't be a god amongst Townies and not be either unrollable or confirmed. To make Town Power vital each role MUST be on a similar power level. Making Mayor less scared is part of this, because there will NEVER be a Jailor to protect them or Ret to revive them. This doesn't buff the role that much, it just removes a weakness. It's still better to roll Jailor to be honest, so if any Town Power role needs (further) nerfing it's him.

Also, please do continue. I'm always open to hearing more opinions.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:38 pm

If mayors can be healed it'll be follow the cop on steroids.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:51 pm

ICECLIMBERS wrote:If mayors can be healed it'll be follow the cop on steroids.

Still weaker than Jailor. And that's not even a real buff, it's removing a nerf/weakness.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Miass » Wed Jan 06, 2016 7:27 pm

Also, please do continue. I'm always open to hearing more opinions.


You wanna hear what I have to say about these buffs/nerfs? Ok, if you say so. But do be warned that I'm not gonna respond if everybody goes rabid on me.

Spy (Snitch) Changes:
-Remove ability to read Mafia night chat
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead
-[Maybe] Now has three night actions that let it read whispers on the next day


For the First Spy change, if you want this feature removed from the Spy then you would need a Town role that has this ability. So far, only the Spy can do this. Plus, no mobsters' name is presented unless if they say the name themselves, but the Spy must be vigilant on this part for the names can be fabricated. I would only agree with this change IF you added "upon death" after it.
The Second Spy change I agree with.
As for the Third Spy change, if you want to balance out the Mob and the Town, you should create a Mafia role gives the player the ability to read whispers.

I see a lot of heat from the proposed changes to this role.

Blackmailer (Bowel Movement) Changes:
-Can read whispers


I'm not sure about giving a role that can silence others for as many days as (s)he possibly can the ability to read the whispers of others. If (s)he's gonna get that ability then (s)he should have a limited amount of times (s)he can put others on the John for the day.

Framer (Finger Pointer) Changes:
-Now makes framed targets appear with the Mafia Killing role to Lookouts
-Now makes Mafia members show up as Not Suspicious to a Sheriff and confirmed Town to Investigator
-Now makes any Mafia visits to the framed target not show up to Spy (including Framer)
-Can now change apparent cause of death via moon button, priority Vig>BG>GF/Maf>Jailor>SK>Arso>Jester>WW>Vet


How does a Lookout tell when his/her target was visiting someone in the night when the Lookout's abilities is the other way around?
For the Second one, I don't think that they allow Mafia members to target their own flock.
The Third one I'm gonna reject because the Mafia's name(s) never show up when they visit someone, so this change is kinda useless.
The fourth one is kinda pointless because the only kills that the Framer can predict are the Mafia ones.

You seemed to have given too many buffs on this role.

Disguiser (Skinwalker) Changes:
-On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed (acts as a forge, but uses the Disguiser's actual last will).
-On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed.
-On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed.
-Upon death, the most recent victim's Last Will is displayed (only way the third victim's Last Will will be displayed).


These buffs would discourage the Disguiser from teaming up with Forgers (who change the last will of the deceased) and Janitors (who erase both roles and last wills of the deceased).

Bodyguard (Yandere) Changes:
-Can only kill Werewolf when its target is attacked, not when its target visits the Werewolf's target


The Werewolf attacks any target that visits him/her if (s)he chooses to stay home at night, so it would make sense for the Bodyguard to protect his/her target while (s)he's visiting the Werewolf. Bodyguards cannot protect them from visiting a Veteran, suicide, Aronist ignites, Transporter/Disguiser related incidents, getting jailed and executed, or their target having a killing role and being shot by another Bodyguard from trying to kill that Bodyguard's target in the process.

Vigilante (Batman) Changes:
-Death Note Removed
-Cannot shoot revealed Mayor unless controlled or target is transported


There's no need to remove the Death Note for Vigilantes. They can tell us if someone's night immune. Plus, we need more laughs.
The Second one I can agree with. Without it, it promotes game-throwing.

Veteran (Vietnam War Hero) Changes:
-Death Note Removed


But they can brighten up the mood and possibly deceive unintelligent Mafia members if they wanna trick them into predicting on when they'll be alert again.

Jailor (Jihadi John) Changes:
-Death Note Removed


The Jailor can use the Death Note to explain on why (s)he killed his/her target.

Arsonist (Firefly) Changes:
-Douses now give no feedback notification
-Now detectable by Sheriff after first ignite


The First one would make the Arsonist OP from the get-go. Without anybody to claim that they were doused, it would not cause hysteria (which is the primary game mechanic).
The Second one I'm having a debate in my head about this one.

Sheriff (Copper) Changes:
-Can now detect Arsonist after first ignite
-Can now detect Werewolf on non-full moons
-Can now detect Vampires
-Or scrap all of the above changes and make it a parity cop


Already answered the First one.
The Second one is a little far-fetched. How can the Sheriff find out if the person's a Werewolf without a full moon when they haven't turned into one yet? Detection Immunity for Werewolves on non-full moon nights gives him/her a good alibi.
The Third one belongs to the Vampire Hunter and is unnecessary.
The Fourth one I don't even know what you're talking about as in "parity cop".

Amnesiac (Idiot) Changes:
-Can now remember as Godfather or Mafioso if no other Mafia roles are dead
-Doing so with either Mafia Killing role alive makes you the other one, regardless of which one you remembered
-Doing so with both Mafia Killing roles alive rolls you a Random Mafia role
-No longer gives a notification for remembering a role


The Developers said that the Amnesiac will never remember that they were a Mafioso or a Godfather because they are unique roles. Plus, if they want that role, they're gonna have to work for it.
The Fourth one I'm kinda debating myself on (although it is funny for people to find out that 2-3 Amnesiacs decided to become Serial Killers/Arsonists).

Transporter (Magical Hats) Changes:
-No longer gives feedback notifications


Debating myself on this one.

Executioner (You're Ex-Spouse) Changes:
-Can now have Spy as its target
-Can no longer have any Town Power role as its target
-Now dies after hanging its target


I'm debating on the First one.
I'm gonna disagree with the Second one because I'm against the whole "Town Power" idea.
The third one is unnecessary.

Forger (The Lawyer That You Never Wanted) Changes:
-Forged Will can now be edited during the day or nights when you haven't picked anybody
-Forges carry over into the next day and affect lynched targets


I'm debating on the First one.
Along with the Second one.

Godfather (Scarface) Changes:
-Can choose which Mafia member is promoted next via buttons in the Mafia box


You're gonna need to specify on this one.

Werewolf (Furry) (Team Jacob) Changes:
-Now detected by Sheriff on non-full moon nights
-Still cannot kill on Night 1
-Always kills visitors on full moon nights OR can kill on non-full moon nights if it didn't kill 2+ people the night before OR can kill every night, but killing 2+ people removes its kill for the next night


Already answered the first one.
Second one should remain that way. If this actually did occur, please report it to the development team.
The Third one... I'm just gonna say no to since the Werewolf is already given the option to go out and kill his/her target and the target's visitors or choose to stay home and kill all of his/her visitors (On full moon nights only).

Witch (The REAL Enemies of Salem) Changes:
-Can now control people that have left but are not yet dead


I'm debating on this one.

Alignment Changes:
-Town Power added (Ret, Mayor, Jailor)
-Neutral Benign changed to Neutral Unaligned
-Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes


I disagree with the First one. Jailors are a killing role because they can decide on whether or not they should kill. Mayors have already sacrificed the ability to be healed in order to triple their voting count in order to support the town. And Retributionists should remain as a supporting role because they... well, bring back the dead.
The Second one just says: "Oh, look! It's just a regular Neutral". Might as well call it True Neutral. I'm just gonna say that I disagree with this. It just doesn't make sense if they're already Neutral to begin with.
The Third one started showing up with Vampires, so I can assume that there might be more Neutral Chaos roles.

Jester (Troll) (Jackass) (Village Idiot) Changes:
-Now Neutral Unaligned


Not gonna agree with this because of my disagreement with the Neutral Unaligned alignment.

You caused a shit-storm with this one.

Investigator (Your Nosy Neighbor) Changes:
-Change Investigator Results List to:

Framer, Vampire
Escort, Consort
Spy, Blackmailer
Mayor, Jailor, Retributionist
Vigilante, Lookout, Mafioso
Investigator, Consigliere, Amnesiac
Bodyguard, Forger, Arsonist
Doctor, Disguiser, Serial Killer
Sheriff, Godfather, Executioner
Medium, Janitor, Jester
Transporter, Vampire Hunter, Witch
Veteran, Survivor, Werewolf


Or we could make a bunch of clues that would require the Investigator to investigate someone for a couple of days so that he could put the pieces together (along with a misinformation backfire mechanic).

Role-list Changes:

Town Power
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Mafia Deception
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil


Is this for Standard mode or something?

Mayor (Obama) Changes:
-Can now be healed by Doctors (buffed so it can be part of Town Power)


Since this buff was mean't for something that I'm against, I'm gonna say no. Plus, like I said earlier, it ruins the game of deception.

Retributionist (Necromancer) Changes
-Self-revives if killed without reviving anybody (buffed so it can be part of Town Power)


Again, saying no since it was mean't to be for what I'm against. Plus, it makes the Retributionist pointless if (s)he revives himself/herself and would be reduced to just another vote for the town (better to bring in another vote than to save one).

Vampire (Team Edward) and Vampire Hunter (The Cure) Changes:
-See here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=33899&p=1011786#p1011786


Why not just tell us YOUR take on how what buffs/nerfs they should have? Redirecting me to another topic is just gonna make me say no.

Gamemode Changes:
-New gamemode "Chaotic Custom", which is an exact copy of Custom but in the Chaos section and will host all of the crazy games


I never played custom, so I'm just gonna leave this part alone.

Most of these buffs/nerfs seem to only benefit the Mafia, a faction that everybody is already claiming to be OP to begin with due to them being organized. Changing some of the role mechanics isn't really gonna make the game better, but possibly worse. Everybody thought that the Vampires would be OP when they were first announced, but ended up being possibly under-balanced in the game instead. If the Mafia's winning, then theoretically it shows that they have successfully manipulated the game into their favor (along with Neutrals that can side with them). If the Town's winning, then theoretically it shows that the town has gotten more wiser to their enemy(s) guile.

We shouldn't have to change the game mechanics to play better. No, we need to play smarter. When I first joined, I was a little bit lost. But within 3 days, I started to become more victorious because I have gotten more wiser to the clever ruse that my opponents have placed on me if there were no shenanigans/Skypers. It's best for the game to remain the way it is... for now.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:29 pm

1: Any role reading Mafia chat is bad, Spy or not. It completely wrecks the Mafia and doesn't buff the role with that ability at all.

2: Limited blackmails at least makes more sense than limited whisper-reading. I'll consider it. Plus, no current Mafia role would use this ability better except maybe Forger/Disguiser (because of how weak they are); however, whisper reading should remain a Mafia Support function in my opinion.

3: If the Mafioso/Godfather kills somebody that the Lookout is watching, the Framed target appears to have visited them as well. Framer would be allowed to target other Mafia members with this change due to the fact that it would help the Mafia for it to do so. The fact that you're rejecting the last two as "pointless" proves that they should be in the game. They don't buff the role too much, but they do make it less niche. It can now affect every Town Investigative, so Spy isn't magically immune, and it can now serve some function (albeit a limited one) against more than just the Town Investigatives.

4: In my current role list those role combonations cannot exist. Plus, even if I do change the role list to two Random Mafia slots (which I've been considering), it's still better to use the Forger or Janitor when disguising, as the Disguiser's target's Last Will will be anywhere from one to several days outdated.

5: You're right, stay-at-home Werewolves are an exception. However, attacking Player A and dying to the Bodyguard, Player C, just because their target, Player B, visited you, is a huge nerf to Werewolf in games with a BG. It's much to easy to get a Werewolf kill as BG right now. There's no skill to it.

6: There is A LOT of need to remove Town death notes. They make any role that has them instantly confirmable. This is the opposite effect on the game than is desired. It should not be easy to prove yourself Town, and in high-level play Town death notes are broken, plain and simple.

7: Read #6

8: And to prove themself. Read #6. Plus, if they really need to explain they can just tell the whole Town.

9: Except, no SK/WW kills means that there's an Arsonist (or a REALLY dumb SK/WW). This will cause MORE panic, as EVERYBODY must assume that they are doused. This also makes the Arsonist much harder to catch, increasing panic even further. So it will actually do a better job at causing panic than before. I've also heavily considered having there be a one-time notification for the first douse each Arsonist makes in all Chaos modes, simply so it doesn't overwhelm in All Any and a chaotic Custom match.

10: Sheriff detecting Arso after the first douse isn't really a big deal, but it should help to stop Arsonists from becoming too powerful. The only reason it can now detect Werewolf full-time is because I buffed Werewolf by enough where it needs it. And Sheriff is a really weak role anyways. Look up "Scientist" on the Role Ideas board, and that is literally a Parity Cop.

11: If Amnesiac is not allowed to join the Mafia more freely it will remain blatantly Town-sided. It's supposed to be Neutral. Plus, Amnesiacs are made more Town-sided by the fact that their choice is broadcast to the whole town, which only benefits the majority (Town). To make Amnesiac truly Neutral it must be able to join both sides without being instantly slaughtered if it becomes a Neutral or somehow manages to join the Mafia. Plus, my system completely covers for the fact that those roles are unique, so there's no problem. (Plus these are the same devs that once said that "Werewolf will NEVER get full night immunity". Good evidence can change their minds.

12: It makes Transporter unconfirmable. Which, as discussed in #6, is how Town roles are supposed to be.

13: The first one makes sense because it can now say that the Spy claim is a Blackmailer. We'll discuss the second one on the TPow section, but not liking TPow is certainly a fine opinion. The third one, however, is INCREDIBLY needed, and there is only one alternative (which I have been heavily considering). Right now Exe can act as a night-immune Tosnie upon lynching its target. This has become so problematic that in many games nowadays the Town will lynch the Exe's target just to get that night-immune Townie. In no way is the mere ability to side with Town in any way that isn't reportable for gamethrowing befitting of a Neutral Evil role. If it doesn't die, the only other choice is to remove its night immunity but prevent it from being able to survive with Town (Town must kill it to win). While this can still be exploited, it is MUCH less likely to be exploited in this scenario. Would you prefer this over the Exe dying?

14: Nothing to say here, other than Forger's weakness right now is the fact that it doesn't have enough time right now to get the job done. This shores up that weakness nicely.

15: The Mafia box (place where your fellow Mafia msmbers are shown) has a button next to each Mafia member's name. The Godfather can choose one person to be given priority in promotion. Example: There is a GF, Maf, BM, and Disg. Normally, if the GF dies the Maf replaces him. However, if the GF picked the Disg the Maf will now replace the GF and the Disg will now replace the Maf. If the Maf dies normally, nothing happems. However, if the GF picked the Disg the Disg will replace the Maf. If both the GF and the Maf have died normally RNG will decide whether the BM or the Disg will replace the Maf (or GF if they were both killed on one night). However, if the GF picked the Disg he is now guaranteed promotion instead of the BM. This would help tremendously with repurposing Mafia members that are out of uses of their abilities or those that just aren't useful (would you rather have the Disguiser become Mafioso or the Janitor?). A faction buff with control given to the leader of said faction.

16: It really needs more consistent kills to be anywhere close to the SK or Arso in power. I'm more than happy to make it a powerful glass cannon to do so. It's not as weak defensively as before they gave it full night immunity, but it's still really weak offensively.

17: Ever-so-slight Witch buff that also prevents things like Vigilante suicide from winning the game (let's say Witch found a Vig, whom then left the game. Now this lets the Witch use their power for one more night).

18: For Town Power, the only two choices are have it in-game and buff all non-Jailor roles that are in it OR don't have it and nerf the **** out of Mayor and Ret. They're too easily confirmable to be allowed to randomly spawn as they are. Neutral Unaligned is a name change that I was effectively forced into because apparently some people decided that calling Jester "Neutral Benign" made no sense (it has one kill). To shut up the stupid lore-based arguments I changed the name. Neutral Chaos can stay in the game as long as it is restricted to Chaos game modes.

19: It really shouldn't be that much of an argument. And changing the name isn't a reason to dismiss it out of hand. Also, I'm sorry, but too many people throw fits at the mere thought of a role called "Benign" getting even one kill and only after it's dead (you'd think that a focus on lore would lead them to assume that maybe it's ACTUALLY GUILT LIKE IT SAYS that causes the kill or something, but apparently not) for me to swap it back because you like the term Benign better. Truthfully, so do I, but apparently that's the unpopular opinion. Either way, it's just lore, so it doesn't really even matter.

20: Post that in Role Ideas and I might take a look. However, I'm not ready to give an opinion on that idea yet.

21: Ranked. It's what you balance everything for. Classic can remain the same for all I care.

22: Still disagree with it "ruining deception", but that's also because I have it as TPow. There's really no point on arguing TPow, either you like it or you don't. However, it is worth noting that without TPow Mayor would be getting nerfed here.

23: Exactly right (it's not that big a buff at all), and same as above about TPow and nerfing.

24: Because my take is removal. Just restrict them to Chaos modes only.

25: This is one of the most-requested and least disputed suggestions on the forums, other than the removal of Spy Mafia chat reading. Sometimes the fine details are argued about, but that's not important right now.

Wait, Mafia OP? Who says that? Right now Town is REALLY overpowered, with about a 60-70% winrate if I remember correctly. The Mafia is really underpowered right now (largely due to Spy and the Neutral Evil and Benign categories being so swingy). Also, as far as I know Town has had a substantially higher winrate than the Mafia for at least a year now (I wasn't here before then).

I'm going to HEAVILY disagree with your ending statement. The game has remained almost exactly the same (excepting the additions of Forger, Vampire, Vampire Hunter, and full Werewolf night immunity) since the day I joined. Yes, strategies have changed, and yes, some changes have been made, but I've not seen enough in my time here to convince me that ToS is working towards balanced competitive play. In fact, I've seen many of the higher-level players and forumers moved on to other games after they got better at ToS and realized just how imbalanced it is (this is part of the reason that FM is so popular here, more so than ToS amongst the veteran players). And trust me, they played plenty smart. Keeping the game the same for longer is killing it off. About half of these suggestions were originally suggested by people that have now left due to the game's imbalance and stubborn unwillingness to fix it. I respect you and your opinions, but trust me when I say that in the 7 months I was here before you the game was still mostly the same, and keeping it that way longer will only continue its decline.


NOTE TO EVERYBODY: I'm incredibly tempted to kill off the middle poll option. Adding Mayor and Ret to TPow without buffing them or heavily nerfing Jailor makes no sense from a balance perspective. Can somebody that picked that please tell me why they think it's a good idea? Because that shot from last place to first place, and I want to know why anybody thinks that's a good idea.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby K1llthestory » Thu Jan 07, 2016 12:19 am

Just face it, ToS players don't have the mental capacity as shown in this thread. None of this will happen.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:01 am

Adding a stipulation to Arsonists:

-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night


This will help Arsonists not get destroyed by the draw detector.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:50 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Adding a stipulation to Arsonists:

-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night


This will help Arsonists not get destroyed by the draw detector.

Yes!
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:56 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Adding a stipulation to Arsonists:

-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night


This will help Arsonists not get destroyed by the draw detector.



You inspired from that post,didn't you? :D
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Wyvernil » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:44 pm

I wonder if this would be a good solution for balance, as an alternative to the Town Power alignment.

Town-aligned unique roles are now capped at two or three(whatever would be balanced). Bodyguard and Spy are now Unique roles. Vampire Hunter is Unique, but does not count against the cap (since it can only spawn when there's a Vampire).

Would this work? Spy seems sufficiently powerful without being nerfed that it could be made unique, and having more than one BG skews things heavily in favor of the town.

Edit: The one flaw I can see with Bodyguard being unique is that it might make it harder for Mafia since Bodyguard is a staple fakeclaim for scum roles. If BG was unique it might make claiming BG more difficult.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:47 pm

Wyvernil wrote:I wonder if this would be a good solution for balance, as an alternative to the Town Power alignment.

Town-aligned unique roles are now capped at two or three(whatever would be balanced). Bodyguard and Spy are now Unique roles. Vampire Hunter is Unique, but does not count against the cap (since it can only spawn when there's a Vampire).

Would this work? Spy seems sufficiently powerful without being nerfed that it could be made unique, and having more than one BG skews things heavily in favor of the town.




So you would want three jailors,mayors or rets?
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Wyvernil » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:50 pm

No, you'd still only get one of each.

You could get Jailor, Mayor, and Ret; for example. However, you couldn't get Jailor, Mayor, Ret, and Veteran.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 2:52 pm

Wyvernil wrote:No, you'd still only get one of each.

You could get Jailor, Mayor, and Ret; for example. However, you couldn't get Jailor, Mayor, Ret, and Veteran.



Oh,so you can't have more than three unique roles.

I see,sorry for misreading.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Miass » Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:10 pm

Yes, strategies have changed, and yes, some changes have been made, but I've not seen enough in my time here to convince me that ToS is working towards balanced competitive play.


Since I now know what this is all about I'm not gonna continue further on the "changes" because I'm against competitive play (I don't even play Ranked matches, just Chaos All Any). Making changes to a game that was never intended to be competitive to promote competition makes the game less fun.

In fact, I've seen many of the higher-level players and forumers moved on to other games after they got better at ToS and realized just how imbalanced it is (this is part of the reason that FM is so popular here, more so than ToS amongst the veteran players)


If you're referring to people that play Ranked game sessions then I honestly don't care. And plus, if you want a game that's more like Forum Mafia, why not play Forum Mafia? Or try to develop your own Mafia-themed game? Sure Town of Salem was inspired by the Soviet game Mafia, but shouldn't Town of Salem be it's own game? And isn't the idea of Town of Salem to have these roles randomized to make sure that each game-play experience is not the same?

I respect you and your opinions, but trust me when I say that in the 7 months I was here before you the game was still mostly the same, and keeping it that way longer will only continue its decline.


Being on any game longer than others =/= Having more Knowledge than others. Longer time in any game =/= More experienced than others. A player that has played Runescape for his/her first 5 days could end up having more smarts about it than a player that has played for 2 years. A newcomer could also just look up the game's game-guide and could end up with as much smarts about the game as the player that edits the game's wiki. Playing Town of Salem longer than I have does not mean that you know more about it than I do (especially when the two of us have two different point of views about the game).

I respect you and your opinions. But to me, the goal of the game is to just have fun. Sure, people get upset when they lose. But at the same time, people shouldn't worry about winning all the time. Why not just have these changes specifically to Ranked matches? It would help separate those who like the game just for fun from those who play competitively.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jan 07, 2016 7:22 pm

If you care not for competitive play this thread is very much not for you. It is here to help balance ToS for higher-level competitive play, which is an important part of any multiplayer game that wants to remain profitable and relevant for a long time. Look at things like CS:GO and LoL. They are balanced for competitive play because that is where the lifeblood of a game lies. If a game is fun for a bit and then loses the ability to keep you entertained it will fall out of the limelight and stop selling. This is why single-player only games can be incredibly popular at first but quickly die out as players beat them and lose the reason to keep coming back. This is also why games like WoW keep getting constant updates with new content: they need reasons to keep players entertained. Without competitive play ToS will die off.

Also, I'm not attempting to lord my time spent in ToS over you in any way. You said that you don't feel the need for the game to change "yet", and I am informing you that it has been this way since I joined. In this case being here earlier does lend increased knowledge through experiences had at that time. For all I know you've played more ToS than I have and you're better at it than I am, and you're exactly right in saying that neither of those really matter. However, in cases like this being around here longer does lend increased experience with how the game was 10 months ago, because that is an experience it would be impossible to assume you've had, having joined in October. That isn't me lording playtime, that's a fact.

Also, is it not more fun to you to play games where whether you win or lose depends on your own actions and ability to work with your team? Does not the tactical challenge of a well-balanced game beat out infinite throwaway chaotic games in terms of pure enjoyment? Because personally I have always found it more fun to test my own abilities than to jump into a crazy mess.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Miass » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:15 pm

Without competitive play ToS will die off.


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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:11 pm

Miass wrote:
Without competitive play ToS will die off.


I'll believe that fairy tale when I see it.

Name one multiplayer game that nobody plays competitively that's still really popular.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Juuhazan » Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:05 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Miass wrote:
Without competitive play ToS will die off.


I'll believe that fairy tale when I see it.

Name one multiplayer game that nobody plays competitively that's still really popular.


Funny you mention that - TF2 has been in a very slow decline with the seeming dearth of actual updates that don't involve more hats. Actual matchmaking will probably be the last notable update they do before leaving the game to its own devices. You might waive this example, however, given that TF2 has been supported by Valve for 8 years already.

I recall my time playing Super Monday Night Combat. Balance was shoddy, updates grew scarce and tried to set up quick cash grabs (TF2-style crate system, bitcoin mining) as their playerbase slowly whittled away.

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