Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

[orangeandblack5]

Whisper reading WILL go to a Mafia Support role, not a Mafia Deception. I'd be all for a new MS role that is balanced around reading whispers. Also, Spy is entirely a passive role. This was a bad design from the beginning. As much as I love being Spy right now, I would be perfectly happy to see it removed from a balance perspective. Giving it some other night ability would work too, but preferably something that its Invest result pair (currently Blackmailer) wouldn't be instantly disproved for.

As for your critiques to my Ranked role list, yes, the NK is debuffed via role list. However, they all recieve buffs to be actually good, and Neutrals are pretty shit anyways. The winrate should ideally be somewhere near 45-45-10.

Investigator is still powerful insofar as it locks down claims, which helps with figuring out the role list much more than a Sheriff does. Also, it is less affected by Framer.

[TrapCard]

Otherwise, I'd love to hear you bring down Vet, Trans and (arguably) Mayor to the level of everyone else, while buffing Medium and Escort.

Escort is already fine, it negates 1 SK/WW and can completely shut down 1 MK/Arso every night if used well; if anything it might be in need of a nerf there. Medium could use N1 immunity and uniqueness for starters to reduce duplication and make it less swingy in power. Vet needs to lose DN, and scum need to get smarter, because a lot of Vet effectiveness is just scum being stupid. Trans is highly skill based, but can usually be dealt with if scum are clever enough. Most trans destroy town instead of maf on average anyways.

Whisper reading WILL go to a Mafia Support role, not a Mafia Deception. I'd be all for a new MS role that is balanced around reading whispers.

I think a new MS role that mostly just reads whispers and jailor chat would probably be far better balanced than giving it to BM. BM is already quite good enough.

I do think Town Power in general would be a huge mistake, though; town roles should be roughly equal to all other town roles, if only to discourage leaving and throwing. I strongly dislike every single vote option, because they all revolve around having OP town roles and inferior town roles.

[orangeandblack5]

While I can't quite add a new poll option without resetting it, your opinion has been noted.

Personally I don't think ToS could ever work like that, but a new Mafia game designed from the ground-up for balance would be a good way to make this feasible.

[BPsycho2]

Doused targets should not smell like gas.

In fact, just add in YOUR Investigation results so that instead of the Arsonist having to frame everyone else, the Arsonist has better roles to claim.

Also, Executioner should keep night immunity, and Spy still shouldn't be the Executioner's target. Also, Town should be able to win with the Executioner as the Executioner does NOT hate the town. He only hates one person in the town. Everyone else is fine.

Some of these changes are not all agreed upon.

[orangeandblack5]

My Investigator Results List Overhaul would suck here.

It would be REALLY, REALLY bad.

So nah.

Exe as-is is a shit excuse for a Neutral Evil role and is almost as bad at it as Jester.

Almost.

Also, name one good reason that Spy still shouldn't be a Executioner's target with these changes, because I can't think of one.

[ICECLIMBERS]

So basically you're making executioner a night-immune scumbag but it also has to lynch somebody first and it entirely depends on another faction to win while having no night ability of its own.

[orangeandblack5]

So basically you're making executioner a night-immune scumbag but it also has to lynch somebody first and it entirely depends on another faction to win while having no night ability of its own.

You're talking to BPsycho2, right?

[ICECLIMBERS]

So basically you're making executioner a night-immune scumbag but it also has to lynch somebody first and it entirely depends on another faction to win while having no night ability of its own.

You're talking to BPsycho2, right?

-Town must now kill it to win (it cannot win with Town if it is alive)

No I'm talking to you.
At least witch has offensive properties to harm town.
At first I did think that you meant for it to not win with town at all but this is still ridiculous. The main way for town to eliminate it is to lynch the executioner.
So you have to lynch your target and then act like a jester. At least remove night immunity or have it die or make its vote not count. What if your target is lynched towards the end of the game and then suddenly the last mafia dies? Oh well looks like you lost before you could even act.

[Arcthurus]

Where's Mafia Tactical?

[orangeandblack5]

1: Fuck you you were one of the main reasons I changed it to this instead of dying
2: Can you not read it does lose night immunity
3: If your target is lynched towards the end of the game and then the last Mafia dies you still win. You seem to be not reading what I have written.
4: You're flip-flopping and not reading. Make a valid fucking point or don't bother typing at all.

If I seem really angry right now, I am. Your incessant whining about my previous Executioner change (the one where it died) is part of what led to me changing it to your suggestion ("just remove night immunity"). Now you're calling that stupid. Explain your change of heart or stop fucking with my thread.

[orangeandblack5]

Where's Mafia Tactical?

Not copy-pasting FM here Arc. Plus, my version of that would work differently anyways.

[Arcthurus]

Technically you would be copying mafiascum.
Or any other decent mafia site.

I repeat my question.

[orangeandblack5]

True enough.

Honestly? I haven't gotten around to considering the further implications that would have on balance with all of the other buffs I have, and I'm not pushing out half-assed material for no reason. However, it is worth noting that I am already significantly buffing the Mafia here, AND that unlike FM or MS, ToS is a realtime game and cannot follow the same conventions automatically.

[Arcthurus]

How does the game being fast paced reduce the effectiveness of that buff?

Do you think this is a OP improvement?
Do you not think it could, at least slighty, improve skill cap?
What makes this a "half-assed" buff when in comparison to the Framer buff of turning people NS to sheriffs?

[orangeandblack5]

It would be half-assed because I have put zero thought into its effects on the game.

Therefore, I'm not adding it right now.

Now, my life has been very busy lately, but Stop Build Day for robotics was yesterday, so I may have some free time on my hands in the near future. If I do, I will seriously consider adding in my version of MT.

[Arcthurus]

Alright, fair enough.

I haven't looked at your list of changes with enough detail, will drop a couple of thoughts later.

[orangeandblack5]

Looking forward to it.

[ICECLIMBERS]

1: Fuck you you were one of the main reasons I changed it to this instead of dying
2: Can you not read it does lose night immunity
3: If your target is lynched towards the end of the game and then the last Mafia dies you still win. You seem to be not reading what I have written.
4: You're flip-flopping and not reading. Make a valid fucking point or don't bother typing at all.

If I seem really angry right now, I am. Your incessant whining about my previous Executioner change (the one where it died) is part of what led to me changing it to your suggestion ("just remove night immunity"). Now you're calling that stupid. Explain your change of heart or stop fucking with my thread.

*solely remove night immunity.
Everything currently in OP is fine except for the last bullet point. If the executioner gets their target lynched and town fulfills its win condition of eliminating Mafia+NK+witch if needed, does the executioner win or do they have to be dead to win? If you have to lynch target+die then it's merged with jester which is too onerous. If town has to kill it then what happens if it's one town role+a won executioner.
If I'm flip flopping then it's because I don't understand.
I don't recall any prior posts I've made on the subject that involved incessant whining;
Obviously if I didn't care about your suggestions or supported them I would've give any feedback of my own. :v
I don't understand point three since it seems to contradict what is in the OP as mentioned above, so you might want to make an edit to clarify.
If you get so heated over this thread, then meh.

[orangeandblack5]

Okay. I will apologize; "incessant whining" was overzealous.

That being said, you misunderstand what happens here. The Executioner loses its night immunity. The Town, however, also gains a new win condition: "Must kill Executioners". With this in play a Exe that has hanged its target will win no matter what; the Town, however, is forced to kill the Executioner to win. A dead Exe will still win if living Town players win, but the game will not end in a Town victory whilst an Executioner is alive.

To answer your 1v1 scenario, the Executioner wins by draw detector unless the last Town role is capable of killing the no longer night-immune Executioner. If it was an Executioner whose target was the last Town member (Exe hasn't won and is still night immune), currently the game would end in a draw unless it was a Jailor with remaining executions (which is impossible in my 1.5 because the Jailor cannot be an Exe's target). This could be changed to Town victory if people care that much; personally I think it makes Executioners more of a threat.

Also, I'm still trying to figure out what happens if your target is night-killed. I'm most likely going to remove the "converts to a Jester" mechanic.

Also, yes I get heated over this thread.
It's my pride and joy.

[ICECLIMBERS]

np

Not a fan of exe though but it's a popular role among a lot of players so removing it from the game is an issue; limiting its chance to roll in ranked isn't though in my opinion. Witch is one of my favorite roles so I have bias and stuff.
I'd prefer for it to die than to become a role that has to die for town to win. Otherwise it seems too punishing. Main reason why I like it living is because it can side with mafia easily for their voting bloc. Plus you don't get to screw with town afterwards which is always fun.

As for the rolelist on the OP I'd suggest changing the mafia deception to random mafia. Keeps town on their toes as if there's a blackmailed person any roleblock or investigator claimant can be considered pro-town. Then again with that any clean or forge means no possibility of a frame so it's not like mafia benefit that much. I'm probably just biased again since in ToS I like mafia support over mafia deception.

[orangeandblack5]

As for the rolelist on the OP I'd suggest changing the mafia deception to random mafia. Keeps town on their toes as if there's a blackmailed person any roleblock or investigator claimant can be considered pro-town. Then again with that any clean or forge means no possibility of a frame so it's not like mafia benefit that much. I'm probably just biased again since in ToS I like mafia support over mafia deception.

lol forgot to change both MS and MD to RM, as I meant to do that a while ago

Not a fan of exe though but it's a popular role among a lot of players so removing it from the game is an issue; limiting its chance to roll in ranked isn't though in my opinion. Witch is one of my favorite roles so I have bias and stuff.
I'd prefer for it to die than to become a role that has to die for town to win. Otherwise it seems too punishing. Main reason why I like it living is because it can side with mafia easily for their voting bloc. Plus you don't get to screw with town afterwards which is always fun.

I love Executioner because it is both easy and fun, but honestly (much like Spy, another favorite of mine) I understand the terrible effect the role has on the game's balance. Changing it to NU (my version of NB) is one option (which would remove it from Ranked); however, as there would currently be 4 NU roles and only 1 NE if I did that, I'm not going to.

Therefore, the only real option is to make it more evil. Plus, it really isn't that punishing when you think about it. The Witch already has to be killed by the Town to win. This would work the same way.

[BPsycho2]

The Executioner does not deserve to be changed negatively at all, and I believe that the Arsonist's buff was done incorrectly, because it destroys the investigator.

I've already sent you a detailed personal message, but I can give all of you the gist here.

Exe: Doesn't hate TOWN. Hates the target. So, once target is dead, the Executioner doesn't care about a thing.

Arsonist: Is actually much weaker because he can't lay low and claim Surv that got transported. He's forced to do the standard, douse everyone, then ignite. And If that happens, which it usually does in all any, The investigator is nerfed to the ground. He can't even find a Mafioso if he was doused.

[JazzMusicStops]

I still have a problem with
"Neutral Unaligned"
First of all, redundant name is redundant
And secondly
And I've said this before
Jester.
Fucking.
Hinders.
Town.
It.
Is.
Neutral.
Evil.

The key aspect of Neutral Benign, or in this case "Neutral Tautology", is picking a side
Jester is NE as it must hinder town to win, lynches are the Town's main method of killing off scum, and with a Jester you lose a lynch and possibly a useful townie

[orangeandblack5]

...or the Jester could target a Mafia member the Town hadn't found yet, pushing the game "clock" several days in the Town's favor. Or it could target the Neutral Killing, giving Town a massive advantage.

It isn't evil at all, Jammy. And yes, while the name is redundant and I'd prefer to keep it as Neutral Benign, apparently the MEMORY of the Jester causing somebody to commit suicide (that is how the role works) is too darn violent to be "benign".

Even though balance should always come before lore.

Even though the Jester doesn't even kill, it's a suicide by guilt.

So, because people were incessantly whining (not an exaggeration this time) about the fact that "jester isnt benign it kills ppl", I changed the subalignment's name.

And I'm not changing it back unless you all agree to shut the hell up about a lore-based name.

Although I am open to suggestions for new, different names for Neutral Unaligned.

[BPsycho2]

...or the Jester could target a Mafia member the Town hadn't found yet, pushing the game "clock" several days in the Town's favor. Or it could target the Neutral Killing, giving Town a massive advantage.

It isn't evil at all, Jammy. And yes, while the name is redundant and I'd prefer to keep it as Neutral Benign, apparently the MEMORY of the Jester causing somebody to commit suicide (that is how the role works) is too darn violent to be "benign".

Even though balance should always come before lore.

Even though the Jester doesn't even kill, it's a suicide by guilt.

So, because people were incessantly whining (not an exaggeration this time) about the fact that "jester isnt benign it kills ppl", I changed the subalignment's name.

And I'm not changing it back unless you all agree to shut the hell up about a lore-based name.


Although I am open to suggestions for new, different names for Neutral Unaligned.

I believe that Neutral (Evil) was literally made for Executioner and Jester, but they'd still fit in Benign because they choose who to haunt, and choose who to side with once target is lynched, etc.

So, make Exe and Jester Neutral Benign again, and leave Evil for Witch, so that it can make more sense.

Benign no longer means "Doesn't hurt ANYTHING" because let's face it, Survivors hurt people, and Amnesiacs always pick SK, which hurts people.
and it means Can choose a side to help.

Also, don't change Executioner and Arsonist.

Arso/BG/Bmer was good.