Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

[Crushed6]

If the Medium is killed night one, the "Medium's Curse" will strike on the killer, causing them to die. (It would be great to see a community lore/myth actually become part of the game )

Oh yes, this actually sounds cool. We should have this. Not going to comment on any of the other changes coz I'll be immediately rebutted.

[orangeandblack5]

If the Medium is killed night one, the "Medium's Curse" will strike on the killer, causing them to die. (It would be great to see a community lore/myth actually become part of the game )

Oh yes, this actually sounds cool. We should have this. Not going to comment on any of the other changes coz I'll be immediately rebutted.

That is not cool. There is literally no reason to give Mediums a free kill, even if it is that limited. It then becomes good tp try and get killed N1 as a Medium, and accidentially hitting one cripples the game for the scum. We don't need more unsafe N1 targets.

Also, don't let fear of rebuttal stop you from saying things.

[Kmenx]

Role-list Changes:
Spoiler:

• Town Power
• Town Investigative
• Town Investigative
• Town Support
• Town Protective
• Town Killing
• Random Town
• Random Town
• Random Town
• Godfather
• Mafioso
• Random Mafia
• Random Mafia
• Neutral Killing
• Neutral Evil

Role List is actually prety good but instead of Neutral Evil We can also have a Neutral Non-Benign/Chaos(Can't roll NB and NC[Vampire] but can roll NE or NK) to buff NK's a bit



Spoiler: -Change Investigator Results List to:

• Framer, Vampire (Framed Targets) Good Result No Changes needed
• Escort, Consort Good Result No Changes needed
• Spy, Vampire Hunter, Blackmailer Good Result No Changes needed
• Mayor, Jailor, Retributionist Good Result No Changes needed
• Vigilante, Bodyguard, Mafioso Bodyguard gets removed form here Now It is: Vigilante, Transporter, Mafioso
• Investigator, Consigliere, Amnesiac Swap Amne and Jester It will work better for both roles tbh
• Lookout, Forger, Witch Good Result No Changes needed
• Doctor, Disguiser, Serial Killer Good Result No Changes needed
• Sheriff, Transporter, Godfather, Executioner Transporter gets removed from here (No One is gonna claim transporter If it becomes unique and without self transport anyways [Better nerf than no notifications thing tbh])
• Medium, Janitor, Jester Swap Amne and Jester It will work better for both roles tbh
• Veteran, Survivor, Werewolf Good Result No Changes needed
• Arsonist Arso stays the same (With slient douses of course) But result is changed to Arsonist, Bodyguard

My review on Invest results and Role List (I finally got on my computer) Also MY sk color is better (#000040)

[Crushed6]

If the Medium is killed night one, the "Medium's Curse" will strike on the killer, causing them to die. (It would be great to see a community lore/myth actually become part of the game )

Oh yes, this actually sounds cool. We should have this. Not going to comment on any of the other changes coz I'll be immediately rebutted.

That is not cool. There is literally no reason to give Mediums a free kill, even if it is that limited. It then becomes good tp try and get killed N1 as a Medium, and accidentially hitting one cripples the game for the scum. We don't need more unsafe N1 targets.

Also, don't let fear of rebuttal stop you from saying things.

But lore>balance! Nah joking...
Anyway, we see that a lot of Mediums and other roles leave night 1 once they die. What we can do is maybe let the Medium choose on night 2 who they want to kill. This,
1. Give them motivation to stay behind
2. Does not guarantee the death of whoever killed the Medium, instead forces them to play tactically and choose to kill whoever was acting suspiciously in night 2.
Of course I know issuing an alert to dead ppl that there is a medium or retri alive is a better motivation for them to stay behind instead of leaving, I'm just suggesting this..


Off-topic: I read in one of your posts(orangeandblack5) that you're a school student. I'm a school student too. Pretty confident of you to encourage me to provide rebuttals. Ironically, irl I'm more confident of giving rebuttals, partly because I'm new to this gaming community. Also I'm one who feels that the game is good as it is and I rarely play ranked. I also play the game only in the holidays because I abstain from gaming during the school term, coz that 5.0 Cap is important. So my suggestions may seem absurd to the advanced gamers here. That's why I refused to rebut the points above.

[JazzMusicStops]

Medium's Curse doesn't exist

[Crushed6]

Medium's Curse doesn't exist

That's the point. It's a myth.

[Technetium]

Better a Medium die N1 than...well...basically any other role.

Except maybe an Escort getting killed by the SK they roleblocked, assuming they have who they blocked in their will.

[Sketchy77]

Spy Changes:
Spoiler: -Remove ability to read Mafia night chat Yes, this is a much needed change which will actually allow mafia to coordinate effectively without fear of a spy.
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead. No, it seems like a pointless change, this is such a non-issue, and frankly doing this indirectly nerfs the medium which is already a fairly poor role as is.
-[Maybe] Now has three night actions that let it read whispers on the next day. NO. Plain outright no. It's fine as it is.

Blackmailer Changes:
Spoiler: -Can read whispers NO, this completely destroys mayor games and removes towns ability to privately coordinate. I'd rather spy be placed on a different investigative list, as a confirmed town "BG/Jailor/Spy or w/e.

Framer Changes:
Spoiler: -Now makes framed targets appear with the Mafia Killing role to Lookouts No. Framers should fool Investigators and Sheriffs. Lookouts and Spies are the roles that can disprove frames.
-Now makes any Mafia visits to the framed target not show up to Spy (including Framer) And makes the framed target's visit show up to the Spy Good change No. as I said above, spies and lookouts are the roles that can disprove frames. Spies already would t ake a large risk by revealing to save a framed person anyway.
-Now can frame Mafia members show up as Not Suspicious to a Sheriff and as Framed to Investigator No. Framer should be able to implicate town, not get mafia proven innocent. That's too OP. Mafia are meant to be deceiving the town with lies not easy auto proven. Also completely invalidates sheriff, a role that already gets heaps of suspicion due to Executioner.
-[Maybe] Can now change apparent cause of death of the framed target via moon button, priority Vig>BG>GF/Maf>Jailor>SK>Arso>Jester>WW>Vet (priority debatable) No. Not gonna waste my time listing the variables of why this is a bad idea.

Disguiser Changes:
Spoiler: -On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed (acts as a forge, but uses the Disguiser's actual last will).
-On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed.
-On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed.
-Upon death, the most recent victim's Last Will is displayed (only way the third victim's Last Will will be displayed). YES TO ALL. Disguiser is literally the most useless role in the entire game as it's ability is entirely dependent on either pure luck (No will) or a janitor or forger assist.

Doctor Changes:
Spoiler: -Healed targets of attacks now show up as immune to the attacker Yes.

Lookout Changes:
Spoiler: -Now a Town Protective role NO. Town Protective by definition "protects" town. The lookout cannot save people from death, only avenge them. Also, this just means you can get a game with NO doctor or bg and that is utterly broken.

Bodyguard Changes:
Spoiler: -Can only kill Werewolf when its target is attacked, not when its target visits the Werewolf's target. Maybe. Honestly I don't really know if I like this idea. As is, the ww only attacks those who visit him if he chooses to stay inside. This in itself is a choice and in my opinion there is no reason why the BG shouldn't protect a target. But on the flipside, the BG doesn't protect people who visit the veteran. So, maybe but idk.


Vigilante Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed No.
-Cannot shoot revealed Mayor unless controlled or target is transported. Yes.

Veteran Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed. No.

Jailor Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed No, jailor can use the deathnote to coordinate town whilst remaining anonymous.
-Number of executions reduced to 2 (and/or some other nerf, because holy crap this thing is OP). No, the jailor is not overpowered, it is powerful. There is a difference. Jailor is one of the most important town roles and can mean the difference between a win and a loss.
-Cannot execute revealed Mayor unless controlled. Added because I think it is a good idea, similar to your vig idea.

Arsonist Changes:
Spoiler: -Douses now give no feedback notification No.
-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night Yes. This should already be a thing it's a no brainer.
-Now makes doused targets "smell like gas" to an Investigator, effectively framing them as an Arsonist No, especially with my investigative list suggestions below.
-Now detectable by Sheriff. No, it's hard enough to win as an Arso as is.

Sheriff Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now detect Arsonist No.
-Can now detect Werewolf on non-full moons No.
-Can now detect Vampires Yes.
-Can now not detect framed Mafia members No. Didn't agree with the framer changes above.
-Or scrap all of the above changes and make it an alignment detector Maybe depending on how things go with future roles. If they are indeed expanding the witch faction, that''ll make 5 factions in total. It also is a good workaround for the sheriff becoming useless after the extra mafia/sk/ww are found or there is an arso. Godfathers should show up as Town Alignment.

Amnesiac Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now remember as Godfather (No) or Mafioso (Yes) if no other Mafia roles are dead.
-Doing so with only one Mafia Killing role alive makes you the other one, regardless of which one you remembered (if the only living MK role is GF you become a Mafioso and vice-versa) No, only come back as mafioso, and only if the Godfather is still alive.
-Doing so with both Mafia Killing roles alive rolls you a Random Mafia role (if both a GF and a Mafioso are alive you roll a new Mafia role) No, completely goes against the entire point of the roles which is to take dead players roles.
-No longer gives a Town-wide notification upon remembering a role No, this is one of the risks of being an amne, and it needs to stay.

Transporter Changes:
Spoiler: -No longer gives feedback notifications. NO NO NO NO NO. Transporter already screws town over, doing this is beyond stupid. I honestly don't know what you were thinking even suggesting this in the first place.
-Can no longer transport Jester guilt Maybe, idk. I feel like the jester should be unblockable by all. I also don't think its fair that people who abstained can be punished for other peoples idiocy.

Executioner Changes
Spoiler: -Can now have Spy as its target No, since I still think spy should be able to read whispers.
-Can no longer have any Town Power role as its target Yes. Too easy for it to fuck them over with a mayor revealing and lynching or a jailor jailing and executing. Way too unfair if you roll those targets.
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target Yes. At that point they are just a disruption, if mafia or town wants to remove them so they cannot mess with votes they can now.
-Town must now kill it to win (the game cannot end in Town victory if an Executioner is alive). No, pointlessly extends the game for no real reason other than to help the executioner get another chance to win.

Forger Changes:
Spoiler: -Forged Will can now be edited during the day or nights when you haven't picked anybody Yes. Not enough time to type forges half the time.
-Forges carry over into the next day and affect lynched target. No.

Godfather Changes:
Spoiler: -Can choose which Mafia member is promoted next via buttons in the Mafia box Yes, avoids an AFK or Idiot being promoted and makes more sense from a lore perspective.

Werewolf Changes:
Spoiler: -Now detectable by Sheriff on non-full moon nights No, as I said earlier. WW is hard enough to win. as is.
-Still cannot kill on Night 1, no matter what
-Always kills visitors on full moon nights OR can kill on non-full moon nights if it didn't kill 2+ people the night before OR can kill every night, but killing 2+ people removes its kill for the next night No. It's a werewolf it kills on full moons. Also, the auto killing visitors can end up fucking the WW over.
-If the target the WW visits is not visited by anyone else, also kill the target the person visited. This would bypass BG protection if the ww attacks the BG, and then kills their target in the process.Added to your list. Seems like a better way of buffing the WW without making it too overpowered that you need to also nerf it with sheriff results. WW is arguably the hardest role to win with, so this seems like a fitting compromise.

Witch Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now control people that have left but are not yet dead Yes, assuming there isn't some server issues in regards to this.

Alignment Changes:
Spoiler: -Town Power added (Ret, Mayor, Jailor) No. I'm a firm believer that Jailor should remain a confirmed role on ranked lists. No manner of buffs or nerfs could convince me that Jailor should be in the same category as other roles. Jailor is the towns Godfather, you wouldn't put the godfather in a list with other inferior roles. Additionally, I don't agree with any of your ret changes, and therefore wouldn't agree to it being Town Power anyway.
-Neutral Benign changed to Neutral Unaligned Pointless name change, neutral by definition basically means unaligned.
-Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes Vampires need to be fixed. That being said there is no point removing Neutral Chaos since it isn't established in the role list. I'd argue that vampires be blacklisted completely from ranked, ranked practice and custom games, and be in Chaos only. Unless a "Chaos Custom" lobby could be created for those wanting to play more out of the box custom games.
-Lookout is now Town Protective No, as I stated above.

Jester Changes
Spoiler: -Now Neutral Unaligned No, jester is a neutral evil role. It is not unaligned in the same way that amnesiac or survivor are. This is a sillt change that messes with rolelists.

Investigator Changes:

No, for a bunch of reasons.
Spoiler: -Change Investigator Results List to:
Framer, Vampire (Framed Targets)
Escort, Consort
Spy, Vampire Hunter, Blackmailer
Mayor, Jailor, Retributionist
Vigilante, Bodyguard, Mafioso
Investigator, Consigliere, Amnesiac
Lookout, Forger, Witch
Doctor, Disguiser, Serial Killer
Sheriff, Transporter, Godfather, Executioner
Medium, Janitor, Jester
Veteran, Survivor, Werewolf
Arsonist (Doused Targets)

Suggested alternative.
Spoiler: Escort, Consort Obvious Reasons.
Investigator, Consigliere, Janitor Allows a relatively safe claim for janitors to fake, and can use with results they find Unlikely to disadvantage Investigators that much due to the result being found BY an investigator.
Vigilante,Vampire Hunter, Veteran, Mafioso Vampire Hunter is a rarity anyway, fits better as an extra in here.
Jailor, Mayor, Spy Removes the need to spytest after checking a spy, since spies are the most easily proven town role.
Lookout, Witch, Blackmailer Witch's often claim lookout, due to them having control over visits.
Serial Killer, Doctor, Vampire No changes needed.
Framer, Forger (And Framed Targets) No changes needed.
Survivor, Werewolf, Jester Removes the insta-lynch mentality people have with this result due to the risk of jester.
Sheriff, Ret, Executioner No changes needed.
Transporter, Amnesiac, Disguiser Fitting with the proposed disguiser changes. Better than 100% Amnesiac, evens out alignments.
Arsonist, Godfather, Bodyguard, Medium All potentially immune except medium, allowing for 2 safer fake claims for both roles.

This is a rough draft but overall I like these changes.

Role-list Changes:

9 town?, 4 mafia? NO. This just screws Neutrals even more than they already are.
Spoiler: Town Power
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil

My alternative
Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Killing
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing
Neutral Evil
Neutral Benign
Any (no neutral chaos)
Mayor Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now be healed by Doctors (buffed so it can be part of Town Power) No, don't agree with town power. This hardly makes it on level with Jailor anyway.

Retributionist Changes
Spoiler: -Self-revives if killed without reviving anybody (buffed so it can be part of Town Power) Not even remotely close to being on level with jailor, or even mayor for that matter. Ret is the role you want to BRING BACK the jailor.

The other option is to nerf the Ret so it dies when it revives somebody and not make it a part of the Town Power grouping. However, this would require a reshuffle of the Investigator results list and warrant the addition of a new Town Power role. The current Ret doesn't need to be nerfed at all. It's completely useless after reviving, can die before reviving someone. It's functionally equal with other towns and is a SUPPORT role through and through.
Vampire and Vampire Hunter Changes:
Spoiler: - Not gonna read all that, but as I stated above, I believe these roles should be blacklisted from ranked, ranked practice and standard custom games, only available in "Chaos Custom" and "All any".

Gamemode Changes:
Spoiler: -New gamemode "Chaotic Custom", which is an exact copy of Custom but in the Chaos section and will host all of the crazy games Yes, I actually wrote thi in one of my comments above before I even read this. Frankly the custom needs to be segregated better into players who want crazy and stupidly unbalance games versus those who like more balanced setups that are often variants of ranked.

[Juuhazan]

I think this is probably the first time I've seen someone shoot down a suggestion on the basis of "ruining Mayor games".

[oliy]

Honestly Executioner should just be Neutral Benign and commit suicide upon it's targets lynch, so it's one town for one scum. Also, it becomes Survivor so scun can claim it instead of it instantly dying upon target reveal.
Jester should be Neutral Benign and kill a random town role, even non-voters, so it's one town for one scum and can fit as NB.
Neutral Benign roles are scum except for an Amnesiac remembering. Remember that.

[JazzMusicStops]

Honestly Executioner should just be Neutral Benign and commit suicide upon it's targets lynch, so it's one town for one scum. Also, it becomes Survivor so scun can claim it instead of it instantly dying upon target reveal.
Jester should be Neutral Benign and kill a random town role, even non-voters, so it's one town for one scum and can fit as NB.
Neutral Benign roles are scum except for an Amnesiac remembering. Remember that.

Jester having to kill Town is shit because it means it immediately loses once Town is dead
Jester is fine as is, with the only change being moving to NB
I do agree with the Exe thing

[oliy]

Honestly Executioner should just be Neutral Benign and commit suicide upon it's targets lynch, so it's one town for one scum. Also, it becomes Survivor so scun can claim it instead of it instantly dying upon target reveal.
Jester should be Neutral Benign and kill a random town role, even non-voters, so it's one town for one scum and can fit as NB.
Neutral Benign roles are scum except for an Amnesiac remembering. Remember that.

Jester having to kill Town is shit because it means it immediately loses once Town is dead
Jester is fine as is, with the only change being moving to NB
I do agree with the Exe thing

It needs to kill town so it's not ownsided with a 1 for 1 and 2 for 0 option. If there's no town it doesn't kill. This makes less kingmakers out of Jesters.

[JazzMusicStops]

Honestly Executioner should just be Neutral Benign and commit suicide upon it's targets lynch, so it's one town for one scum. Also, it becomes Survivor so scun can claim it instead of it instantly dying upon target reveal.
Jester should be Neutral Benign and kill a random town role, even non-voters, so it's one town for one scum and can fit as NB.
Neutral Benign roles are scum except for an Amnesiac remembering. Remember that.

Jester having to kill Town is shit because it means it immediately loses once Town is dead
Jester is fine as is, with the only change being moving to NB
I do agree with the Exe thing

It needs to kill town so it's not ownsided with a 1 for 1 and 2 for 0 option. If there's no town it doesn't kill. This makes less kingmakers out of Jesters.

Jester should be able to choose who it kills and should be able to kill anyone as punishment for lynching the Jester

[oliy]

Except it's townsided. It's either a fair trade by killing town or it dies and kills two scum in its haunt.
Also, choosing is just kingmaking and that makes the game unfair and less competitive, something I definitely don't want.
Also, this way Mafia actually push their mislynches instead of chickening out.

[JazzMusicStops]

Honestly Executioner should just be Neutral Benign and commit suicide upon it's targets lynch, so it's one town for one scum. Also, it becomes Survivor so scun can claim it instead of it instantly dying upon target reveal.
Jester should be Neutral Benign and kill a random town role, even non-voters, so it's one town for one scum and can fit as NB.
Neutral Benign roles are scum except for an Amnesiac remembering. Remember that.

Jester having to kill Town is shit because it means it immediately loses once Town is dead
Jester is fine as is, with the only change being moving to NB
I do agree with the Exe thing

Once town is dead, the game's kinda over though isn't it?

Maf vs Neutrals

[Crushed6]

Survivor, Werewolf, Jester Removes the insta-lynch mentality people have with this result due to the risk of jester.

/fullsupport for this. The number of times I've gotten lynched as a Survivor or Wewewolf because of an investigator is way too much

[orangeandblack5]

However, that result is nowhere near viable here.

[CAPTAINPHASMA123]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

[JazzMusicStops]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

[CAPTAINPHASMA123]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

Why not? Veterans are soldiers too, they fought for our country

[JazzMusicStops]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

Why not? Veterans are soldiers too, they fought for our country

1. Only 1 TK
2. Vets aren't powerful enough

[CAPTAINPHASMA123]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

Why not? Veterans are soldiers too, they fought for our country

1. Only 1 TK
2. Vets aren't powerful enough

1. What about Vampire Hunter? (unless it's going to be removed but meh) And I'm sure that there will be new Town Killing roles. Town Killing roles shouldn't exist in my opinion.
2. Vet is a unique role. How come it isn't powerful it is already unique.

[murat1996]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

Why not? Veterans are soldiers too, they fought for our country

If vet is Town Power, then the TK will always be Vig...

And Vet isn't that strong to be one

[JazzMusicStops]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

Why not? Veterans are soldiers too, they fought for our country

1. Only 1 TK
2. Vets aren't powerful enough

1. What about Vampire Hunter? (unless it's going to be removed but meh) And I'm sure that there will be new Town Killing roles. Town Killing roles shouldn't exist in my opinion.
2. Vet is a unique role. How come it isn't powerful it already is unique.

1. Read the link in the OP
2. Unique =/= Town Power

[CAPTAINPHASMA123]

Veteran should be Town Power in my opinion.

Nah

Why not? Veterans are soldiers too, they fought for our country

1. Only 1 TK
2. Vets aren't powerful enough

1. What about Vampire Hunter? (unless it's going to be removed but meh) And I'm sure that there will be new Town Killing roles. Town Killing roles shouldn't exist in my opinion.
2. Vet is a unique role. How come it isn't powerful it already is unique.

1. Read the link in the OP
2. Unique =/= Town Power

I didn't understand what you said sorry lol