Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Sat Jan 09, 2016 6:18 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Miass wrote:
Without competitive play ToS will die off.


I'll believe that fairy tale when I see it.

Name one multiplayer game that nobody plays competitively that's still really popular.

Firstly, the phrase "nobody plays competitively' shouldn't be used. Instead, let us apply the term: "That doesn't have a large competitive community" so that we eliminate fringe groups.

Let's see, they're Left 4 Dead and Left 4 Dead 2 campaign mode, PAYDAY 2, Verdun, Starbound, and Terraria.
And those are just games in my steam library.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Jan 09, 2016 8:06 pm

Campaigns don't count. And I cannot speak for the rest. I don't know if people play those competitively or not, and I suppose Terraria could be one exception, but removing PvE focused games would still prove my point, so...

The real question is: Are any of those games still as popular (or even moreso) today than they were when they launched/gained popularity?
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Juuhazan » Sat Jan 09, 2016 10:12 pm

L4D is kil, L4D2 less so (not really sure), Payday 2's still going strong amidst immense community backlash, Starbound not sure though I'm sure it's stagnant, Terraria is still going very strong.

The thing is none of those games are primarily made for PvE, or have PvP as the core idea of the game.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:48 am

At any rate, I still want to know why more people are voting to not buff Mayor and Ret whilst making them TPow with Jailor.

That doesn't really make any sense from a balance perspective.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:05 pm

Reset poll, and changed Exe from dying after hanging its target to:
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (it cannot win with Town if it is alive)


Hopefully this will be more agreeable. *sigh*
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PandACT » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:32 pm

I haven't read the comments yet, but these are what I've seen that I think should be fixed. (Also, all of these are really dramatic. You know everyone's going to hate them for changing it all at once. Slow and subtle wins the race!)

Since the spy has its main ability removed, it effectively had its second removed by new bm'r. This won't work at all. Spy's only sure function now is to record mafia visits.
Framer good except for lookouts. Sadly, everything is good, but the lookout is UP as it is.
Jailor debuff not necessary, but not too degrading.
Arso needs a way to have its doused targets discovered. Consort and invest could have a side note... "The person you investigated had been doused!"
Amn still can remember alive unique mafia roles. Two gfs or two mafiosos would not be pretty. Just don't let it remember them remember uniques and stop trying to fix it! XD

Unnecessary suggestions

Jester doesn't need to be a different alignment. They screw with the town badly by hampering the process of lynching.
WW's immunity is unclear. I like it, but seriously? Now the immunity just doesn't make any sense. (I still want ww not to be unique. :P)
Disg is effectively a ventriloquist, while preserving the normal strategies. I am all for disg being full ventriloquist, however. (You can probably find a thread in the role suggestions thread.)

EDIT: no one will read this. This discussion has clearly derailed, and I just read the three comments above me.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:35 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Reset poll, and changed Exe from dying after hanging its target to:
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (it cannot win with Town if it is alive)


Hopefully this will be more agreeable. *sigh*

Yes to the first
No to the second
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:38 pm

1: Yeah, Spy is a terrible role. Always was. Giving it a reverse Lookout option is an option.
2: Lookout isn't UP at all...
3: Disagree for Ranked.
4: I did fix it AND allow it to remember unique Mafia roles. Plus, why would I not try to fix it?
5: Yes it does, and no they don't.
6: What?
7: Okay...?

Also, these don't all need to be added at the same time. But they should all be phased in over time, hopefully within a few months.

JammySplodge wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Reset poll, and changed Exe from dying after hanging its target to:
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (it cannot win with Town if it is alive)


Hopefully this will be more agreeable. *sigh*

Yes to the first
No to the second

There is no in-between.

Either it dies after hanging its target or Town has to kill it.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jan 17, 2016 9:11 pm

AssassinOfDoom wrote:I wonder why the Disguiser change is still not top priority?

Or Investigator
Or Framer
Or Amnesiac
Or Spy
Or etc.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby AMigo » Tue Jan 19, 2016 6:27 pm

My opinions and a couple of further suggestions. Keep in mind that there is probably no way to absolutely-completely balance Ranked.

Spy Changes:
-Remove ability to read Mafia night chat
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead
-[Maybe] Now has three night actions that let it read whispers on the next day


The first two are excellent suggestions. Removing Spy's ability to read the Mafia chat would allow Mafia to discuss their strategy freely, and would allow more interesting, balanced and high-quality gameplay. The second suggestion, sure, why not, a dead Spy eavesdropping conversations makes no sense anyway. Well, the third one might be a good idea, if the Blackmailer change does not happen.

Blackmailer Changes:
-Can read whispers


This sure would counter Mayor-games. However, I am not sure if making everyone stop using whispers due to fear of a Blackmailer being present would be the right way to go. It is very similar to Spies killing off the Mafia chat. I won't outright oppose this, but might prefer some other way to get around whispergaming.

Framer Changes:
-Now makes framed targets appear with the Mafia Killing role to Lookouts
-Now makes Mafia members show up as Not Suspicious to a Sheriff and confirmed Town to Investigator
-Now makes any Mafia visits to the framed target not show up to Spy (including Framer)
-Can now change apparent cause of death via moon button, priority Vig>BG>GF/Maf>Jailor>SK>Arso>Jester>WW>Vet


The Framer needs buff, no doubt. But I think the second (and maybe third) changes would be enough. By the way, just throwing a not-so-much-thought suggestion, how about no "Town Power", but instead a "Town Government" category with Mayor and Spy in it? Making Mayor and Spy appear only through the Random Town and Any slots could be welcome to ranked. This would also indirectly buff the Framer, with more Sheriffs and Investigators being present to mess around with.

Disguiser Changes:
-On first disguise, the Disguiser's Last Will is displayed (acts as a forge, but uses the Disguiser's actual last will).
-On second disguise, the first victim''s Last Will is displayed.
-On third disguise, the second victim's Last Will is displayed.
-Upon death, the most recent victim's Last Will is displayed (only way the third victim's Last Will will be displayed).


Disguiser also needs buff, it is beyond useless at present. This is one way to solve the problem. The other way would be to make the disguised target's last will not show up at all. I am indifferent about what is done, as long as something is done.

Bodyguard Changes:
-Can only kill Werewolf when its target is attacked, not when its target visits the Werewolf's target


Seems logical.

Vigilante Changes:
-Death Note Removed
-Cannot shoot revealed Mayor unless controlled or target is transported


As much as I love Death Notes and they make games funnier, this is needed. The second change also needs to happen. Vigilantes practically only shoot revealed Mayors for the lulz.

Veteran Changes:
-Death Note Removed


Yes.

Jailor Changes:
-Death Note Removed


Not with Jailor, please. It is a good way to explain the decision to execute the prisoner. Besides, Jailor is very easy to confirm anyways, and I've never seen anyone request a Jailor to confirm himself via Death Notes.

Arsonist Changes:
-Douses now give no feedback notification
-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night
-Now detectable by Sheriff after first ignite


I like douses giving feedback. People noticing that more and more Townies are getting doused causes mob hysteria, which is an important part of the game. "We gotta find the Arso, lynch someone, fast!" The second change would be welcome. The third is a buff to the Sheriff, discussing it in the Sheriff section.

Sheriff Changes:
-Can now detect Arsonist after first ignite
-Can now detect Werewolf on non-full moons
-Can now detect Vampires
-Or scrap all of the above changes and make it a parity cop


The Sheriff could also have some buff, as most people seem to think that it is the weakest Investigative role at this moment. But these changes would also further harm Arsonist and Werewolf, which already have the lowest win-rates in Ranked. Another not-so-much thought idea: how about changing the Sheriff detect the alignment of the person? "Your target aligns with the Town/Mafia" or "Your target has no alignment at all" (Neutral). Would this in turn harm Exe/Jester too much?

Amnesiac Changes:
-Can now remember as Godfather or Mafioso if no other Mafia roles are dead
-Doing so with either Mafia Killing role alive makes you the other one, regardless of which one you remembered
-Doing so with both Mafia Killing roles alive rolls you a Random Mafia role
-No longer gives a notification for remembering a role


I think the Amnesiac is good as it is.

Transporter Changes:
-No longer gives feedback notifications


Again, I like the feedback notifications. This would just be too much of a mess. Investigative results in games with Transporter are already messed up, but if the only way to figure out who is being transported was to read the dead Transporter's will? Have to disagree with this change.

Executioner Changes:
-Can now have Spy as its target
-Can no longer have any Town Power role as its target
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (it cannot win with Town if it is alive)


Agreeing regarding Mayor and Jailor targets, they are horrible. Spy targets just might work, if the Spy's ability to read whispers is restricted to only three nights. But what is the point of the fourth suggestion? Executioner unable to win with the Town, if it is alive? I see the Exe as a character that couldn't care less about anything else save for getting his target lynched. When he has accomplished his goal and already won, the Town and the Mafia may try to use some diplomacy with him to gain an extra vote. The night immunity is also fine as it is, it enables tactics such as using the already-won Exe as a Transporter shield.

Forger Changes:
-Forged Will can now be edited during the day or nights when you haven't picked anybody
-Forges carry over into the next day and affect lynched targets


The first change is excellent. Forger needs much more time to create convincing wills. (Removing the Spy's ability to read Mafia chat would also allow better discussion on who to forge or what to forge). Also needs some better GUI. The second change, well, no strong feelings one way or the other.

Godfather Changes:
-Can choose which Mafia member is promoted next via buttons in the Mafia box


Sure, why not. "That idiot better not become a goddamn GF". Also, if he makes no choice at all, priority would be Mafioso > Random other Mafia.

Werewolf Changes:
-Now detected by Sheriff on non-full moon nights
-Still cannot kill on Night 1
-Always kills visitors on full moon nights OR can kill on non-full moon nights if it didn't kill 2+ people the night before OR can kill every night, but killing 2+ people removes its kill for the next night


See Sheriff. I feel like allowing the Werewolf to kill on non-full moon nights is against the role's point, "a regular citizen turning into a beast every Full Moon". If it needs any change, maybe just allow it to not attack anyone at all by not choosing a house to rampage (easier laying-low strategy).

Witch Changes:
- Can now control people that have left but are not yet dead


Sure.

Alignment Changes:
-Town Power added (Ret, Mayor, Jailor)
-Neutral Benign changed to Neutral Unaligned
-Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes


The first change: maybe, i suggested an alternative "Town Government" in the Framer section. The second change: not a big deal. Neutral Unaligned sounds a bit redundant, so I like the present one better. The third change: Uh, what? So no Vampires in present-list Ranked at all? Or removing the Neutral Chaos alignment but making Vampires still appear through Any? I don't get it.

Jester Changes:
-Now Neutral Unaligned


Prefer Jesters as evil, and think that a Ranked game should always have a chance of a Jester (relating to your role list). It makes people to think twice before they lynch, and provides some nice cover and sweet chaos to other evil roles.

Investigator Changes:
-Change Investigator Results List


Some sort of change with Investigators is surely needed. Currently it has horrible stuff like the "Mayor/GF/VH" insta-reveal result and the "Survivor/Witch/Werewolf" insta-lynch result. These issues are best discussed in the Investigator Overhaul thread, which has a nice suggested result list. Your list is pretty similar and seems good too.

Mayor Changes:
-Can now be healed by Doctors (buffed so it can be part of Town Power)


It could already be powerful enough to be part of that category, since most killers won't dare to attack Mayor at all before the Town Protective is dead.

Retributionist Changes:
-Self-revives if killed without reviving anybody (buffed so it can be part of Town Power)

The other option is to nerf the Ret so it dies when it revives somebody and not make it a part of the Town Power grouping. However, this would require a reshuffle of the Investigator results list and warrant the addition of a new Town Power role


If Town Power happens, sure.

Vampire and Vampire Hunter Changes:


Too lazy to start exploring that thread (and generally Chaos roles in Ranked) now. I'm just glad that they appear so rarely with the present role list.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby PolyesterHomes » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:37 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:1: Yeah, Spy is a terrible role. Always was. Giving it a reverse Lookout option is an option.
2: Lookout isn't UP at all...
3: Disagree for Ranked.
4: I did fix it AND allow it to remember unique Mafia roles. Plus, why would I not try to fix it?
5: Yes it does, and no they don't.
6: What?
7: Okay...?

Also, these don't all need to be added at the same time. But they should all be phased in over time, hopefully within a few months.
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (it cannot win with Town if it is alive)

Probably been suggested before, but why not have the message: "X player has left the town!" appear the day after the executioner lynches their target, and have their body not show up.
This way, Lore ties into Balance perfectly. After all, the Executioner doesn't care what happens to the town anymore, but suicide would come out of nowhere. Makes much more sense for him to just leave. Would be a easy thing to implement to, from what I understand.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 5:39 am

Yeah, it would.

Honestly though, both solutions work better on seperate problems. Either it leaves, or it loses NI and becomes a scum vote, at the expense of the ability to vote with Town on accident or if you gamethrow.

I just swapped it to the former, so I won't swap back, but having him "leave Town" was always kinda what I had in mind. ;)
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby hamizan98 » Fri Jan 22, 2016 7:33 am

Somethings annoys me about this suggestion
let me see..

-Spy
-Keep the ability to hear mafia chat at night but makes some changes (if these dont keep, spy role will be useless) (makes it so that some will be hear, some dont)
-Keep the ability to hear whisper

-Blackmailer
-Makes it hear whisper, easier to lie..

-Framer
-Most i would agree but i dont agree with the last one.. (it will make it overpowered)

-Disguiser
-i dont understand

-Bodyguard
-i agree

-Vig
-Yup, i dont want vig to kill mayor
-about death note, i dont really care

-Vet
-I dont know..

-Jailor
-NO!

-Arso
-i want it know that he been doused.. especially the arso since he can remove doused gas..
-i want it to extend the draw detector
-i dont want it to detectable (because arso is already one of the hardest to win)

-Sheriff
-i dont want any of these.. (i dont know with vamp tho.. they quite OP w/o VH but UP with VH)

-Amne
-No to all.. (everyone will doubt about everything except maf and vamp..)

-Transporter
-nope.. that is the only way to confirm a role

-Exe
-No.. if spy as its target as it can be confirm easily
-I dont agree with the alignment
-does it even matter?
-he is neutral.. he do not team with anyone

-Forger
-that would be hard to do
-yes!

-GF
-yes, but only if mafioso is dead too..

-WW
-i dont think it need any changes.. ww is already hard to win.. making it detectable will make it impossible to win
-of course it still cannot kill on first night..
-kill visitor on full night

-Witch
-yeah sure why not..

-alignment changes
-NO to all

-Jester
-NO! neutral evil means need to kill someone.. it still win with all!

-Invest
-i dont think it need to be change... it is already perfect

-Role list changes
-i dont play ranked

-Mayor
-trust me.. making this change will make it OP.. town will mostly win..

-Retri
-makes it a little change.. even dead, he still can revive one player.. or else, it will be useless

-Vamp/VH
-i dont want to read all of those.. but yes, we need some changes to it. (i still want it to convert people)

-Gamemode change
-YES!!!!! I WANT THAT!!
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:40 am

I'm much more in favour of changing the flavour to "X has left the town"
"S/he left a note when S/he left"
"*display Last Will*"
This would also work for suggested roles that cam win before the end of the game
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 7:06 pm

Quick question:

If I nerfed the Jailor a bit, would you rather see:
-A Vigilante-like guilt mechanic where the Jailor commits suicide if they hit a Town member
-The amount of executions a Jailor has reduced to 2
-Something else

Let me know!
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:47 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Quick question:

If I nerfed the Jailor a bit, would you rather see:
-A Vigilante-like guilt mechanic where the Jailor commits suicide if they hit a Town member
-The amount of executions a Jailor has reduced to 2
-Something else

Let me know!

I'd rather give Jailor guilt to vig and not vice versa
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:07 pm

Updated the wording of several changes for clarity and made some slight changes.

-Jailor now only has two executions
-Arsonist now makes doused targets "smell like gas", effectively framing them as Arsonist to an Investigator
-Sheriff can now detect Arsonists
-Investigator list reshuffled to accommodate the Arsonist change
-Framer now makes framed Mafia members appear as Framer/Vampire to an Investigator
-Probably a couple other small changes I've forgotten about already

Also, I may remove one alert from the Veteran and one bullet from the Vigilante, leaving all current Town Killing roles with two kills. This means that they are much less likely to wipe out half of the scum on their own. Let me know what you think.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Raetah » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:25 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Updated the wording of several changes for clarity and made some slight changes.

-Jailor now only has two executions
-Arsonist now makes doused targets "smell like gas", effectively framing them as Arsonist to an Investigator
-Sheriff can now detect Arsonists
-Investigator list reshuffled to accommodate the Arsonist change
-Framer now makes framed Mafia members appear as Framer/Vampire to an Investigator
-Probably a couple other small changes I've forgotten about already

Also, I may remove one alert from the Veteran and one bullet from the Vigilante, leaving all current Town Killing roles with two kills. This means that they are much less likely to wipe out half of the scum on their own. Let me know what you think.

No support, Jailor must be able to be the MLG player killing from N2 to N4 three evil persons during the night with no leads from Town Investigative whatsoever.
Aka my Playstyle of Jailor, Night 4 Kill is too late, you must kill N3 at the very least and you NEVER jail Mayor.

I use a super secret method that I called Scouting, which allows me to find evil roles. This method have several counters, but is still very efficient for the most part.
There are chances of executing a Town member with this method, however that means that the executed Town member played particularly bad using my standards during the game.
So NO REGRETS.

Sorry but Jailor wouldn't feel good for me If I can't win the game by myself on day 6.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby JazzMusicStops » Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:47 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:-Arsonist now makes doused targets "smell like gas", effectively framing them as Arsonist to an Investigator
-Sheriff can now detect Arsonists

I assume that if you chose to remove one, the other would go too
I...I like it
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 4:21 pm

Any thoughts on removing one shot from Vig and one alert from Vet?
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:56 pm

It would have two bullets, not only one.

Also, this is not to counter gamethrowing.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby HappyMatt369 » Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:56 pm

So, the ranked rolelist has 5-7 evils to kill (3 mafia, 3 neutrals, and an any), and there are 2-3 town killings, and you limit it to 2... I feel that this is good for ranked, but you can't balance the list completely around ranked. Maybe give veteran 3 alerts, as he can't choose who to shoot.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby TrapCard » Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:30 pm

Personally, I would much prefer to see Jailor slapped with a nerfbat and roles in general brought into equal levels of power. Swap Jailor and Vig guilt, the Jailor has an easier time avoiding killing town anyways. Feel free to drop his executions to 2 and nuke his DN at the same time. I am in support of all of the above nerfs in tandem or separately. I don't think any one player on the same team should be any more pivotal than another; where that is the case, as far as I am concerned, the game is broken. Town Power should not exist, instead, all town roles should be approximately equal in power. Uniqueness should only be a mechanism to handle roles that get out of hand in multiples (e.g. jailors fighting over jailing the same guy,) not a power-balancing mechanic.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Juuhazan » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:03 am

TrapCard wrote:Personally, I would much prefer to see Jailor slapped with a nerfbat and roles in general brought into equal levels of power. Swap Jailor and Vig guilt, the Jailor has an easier time avoiding killing town anyways. Feel free to drop his executions to 2 and nuke his DN at the same time. I am in support of all of the above nerfs in tandem or separately. I don't think any one player on the same team should be any more pivotal than another; where that is the case, as far as I am concerned, the game is broken. Town Power should not exist, instead, all town roles should be approximately equal in power. Uniqueness should only be a mechanism to handle roles that get out of hand in multiples (e.g. jailors fighting over jailing the same guy,) not a power-balancing mechanic.


Eh, not gonna happen. All roles being equal in power is practically impossible, seeing as with what each role does, it'd be futile to try to balance them relative to each other.

Otherwise, I'd love to hear you bring down Vet, Trans and (arguably) Mayor to the level of everyone else, while buffing Medium and Escort.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Buettel » Fri Feb 19, 2016 7:31 pm

My problem with your suggestions is that you actually want to buff all bad classes AND nerf all good classes. The result: not "power-parity", but an imbalancing in favor of the former bad roles. I feel like some suggestions are over the top and good players can manipulate town as evil role anyway. So when you make Mafia too powerful, they actually win every game. It is also not the goal of "balance"-changes to create a 50-50 winrate of town and mafia or even a 33-33-33 winrate for town, mafia and NK.

Example: you want to limit the whispers a Spy can read AND you want the Blackmailer to additional have the ability to read all whispers. That is just a bit too much. It is like if you pass a "Spy-test" you are even more likely confirmed Blackmailer :D. A Spy is not that useful as you think if Mafia actually is smart and if you now remove his ability to instantly self-confirm and lead a otherwise passive town, he is even less useful.
It would be much more interesting if a Disguiser could read whispers ;), because a Blackmailer has kind-of a decent night ability. Or you give the Disguiser the ability to read Jailor-night-chat (would be a slight Jailor-nerf as well).
Some townies have a really hard time to confirm themselves. Sure, you can confirm that you are Vigilante by a death note, but you have to correctly shoot someone for that. Sometimes a town needs a good Jailor to even have a chance, because they might lose voting power after night 2!

Your new ranked rolelist: You reduce the chances for a NK-win by removing NB and any who are often the only reason a NK even has the slight chance to win. Most players agree that you should first try a small change like changing one TI and one TS into RT to create more claimspace and decrease the chance for a mighty TS-role like Mayor, Retributionist or Transporter. Also you should not exclude the NB, only because you think they are boring. It would be okay to limit the game to only have one of Mayor or Retributionist, but still a secured spot for the Jailor.
Your changes to the Investigator basically make him more useless than the current Sheriff. Now evil roles do not even have to try to be creative.
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