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Investigator Results List Overhaul v3.0

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:37 pm
by orangeandblack5
Overhaul the overhaul thread time! As this hasn't seen any significant update in over 10 months (and as we near the second year anniversary of this whole thread on June 10), it's about time that I get back into it and clean up this thread. You'll notice it's much simplified in layout - I want to facilitate as much discussion as tightly focused as I can.

Obviously this thread has done immense good in the past (it was the driving force behind the previous in-game change to the Investigator), so it's time to start working on what I feel the Investigator should be in the Coven expansion. Hopefully getting this out before 1.6 drops will see BMG embrace it if there is enough support. Due to the rush I'm not really considering lore changes, so I'm completely open to any lore suggestions for the list.

That being said, please provide any feedback you have - improvements now are critical. Thank you for your continued support.

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Version 3.0

Escort, Transporter, Vampire Hunter, Consort - Your target frequents the shadier parts of Salem. They must be an Escort, Transporter, Vampire Hunter, or Consort.
Escort/Consort works quite well. All this result really needs is a Coven role that can roleblock, which I've asked the devs to add next.

Investigator, Lookout, Consigliere, Witch, Coven Leader - Your target watches others closely. They must be an Investigator, Lookout, Consigliere, Witch, or the Coven Leader.
This result practically builds itself. Invest, Consig, and Coven Leader all go with each other, Lookout and Witch are healthy with each other, and Coven Leader literally is a Witch.

Spy, Mayor, Blackmailer, Amnesiac - [NEEDS LORE]. They must be a Spy, Blackmailer, Amnesiac, or the Mayor.
Spy and Blackmailer go together, Amnesiac needs some pressure, and Mayor is instantly confirmed. This seems like a weak result, but Spy is already instantly confirmed if there is no Mafia, so it's actually quite solid.

Vigilante, Bodyguard, Mafioso, Pirate, Medusa - Your target kills without question. They must be a Vigilante, Bodyguard, Mafioso, Pirate, or Medusa.
A solid result that will put good pressure on Vigilante and Bodyguard while providing solid claimspace for Mafioso and Medusa.

Medium, Retributionist, Forger, Jester, Necromancer - [NEEDS LORE]. They must be a Medium, Forger, Jester, Necromancer, or the Retributionist.
This one works well enough. It doesn't give Forger or Necromancer the best claimspace in the world, but with Jester in their result they don't need it.

Sheriff, Trapper, Godfather, Executioner, Juggernaut - Your target is waiting for the right moment to make their move. They must be a Sheriff, Trapper, Executioner, Juggernaut, or the Godfather.
Godfather gets great claimspace from Sheriff and Executioner, and Trapper makes a great last-ditch claim. Juggernaut helps to add some extra pressure, although this result still works well without it.

Doctor, Jailor, Janitor, Serial Killer, Potion Master - Your target's hands are constantly stained. They must be a Doctor, Janitor, Serial Killer, Potion Master, or the Jailor.
Potion Master can heal somebody and claim Doctor, Janitor can claim Jailor if they clean him, and Serial Killer gets the same solid Doctor claim it's always had.

Veteran, Tracker, Disguiser, Survivor, Werewolf - Your target is extremely paranoid. They must be a Veteran, Tracker, Disguiser, Survivor, or Werewolf.
No result can be truly great without a Coven result, but there aren't enough of those and I finally made a list that doesn't completely screw over the Werewolf and hang it out to dry. Yet another result that works without being anything special.

Crusader, Ambusher, Guardian Angel, Poisoner - [NEEDS LORE]. They must be a Crusader, Ambusher, Guardian Angel, or Poisoner.
All Coven DLC roles, so nobody loses claimspace if you're playing without the Coven expansion.

Psychic, Hypnotist, Plaguebearer, Pestilence, Hex Master - [NEEDS LORE]. They must be a Psychic, Hypnotist, Plaguebearer, Pestilence, or Hex Master.
Short of giving Pestilence its own result, it makes sense to just put it in with the Plaguebearer.

Framer, Vampire, Arsonist - Your target has been acting up recently. They must be a Framer, Vampire, or Arsonist.
Removing Jester and adding Arsonist simply cleans things up.

Food for Thought:
  • Should Arsonist remain with Framer and Vampire? Or should it have its own result and leave Framer and Vampire on their own?
  • Should I swap any of the Coven roles around, such as Hex Master and Poisoner?
  • Should I swap Transporter and Lookout, so there are one TI and one TP in each of their Investigator results?
  • Should I swap Disguiser and Forger, so Disguiser can claim to be Medium or Retributionist and when the real one counter-claims it he can disguise as them and they'll be hanged when the Disguiser dies?
This list IS NOT PERFECT. Please give feedback. You never know when your idea will make everything just work.
Suggestions are much appreciated.
Thank you all!

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Extra special thanks to those whom have helped me balance and test this list, especially:
Spoiler: Kiyosen
Cyantic
TrueGent
isrlygood
Purplesidewalk1
Edmund McGaben
Flamingkamikaze
Jfire
Bloodringe
KittenLicks
BPsycho2
BS4125

Also extra special thanks to those whom have made lists like this before, especially:
Spoiler: Kiyosen - http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 14&t=21985
Bloodringe - http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 14&t=21917
Elastoid - http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 14&t=20968

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:49 pm
by Flamingkamikaze
THIS LIST IS AWESOME! not sure why you have vampire and vampire hunter in there but I really do love this list. you did a good job, I'm not sure where to put survivor either, I would put it with arso lookout too maybe say "your target does things slowly." for now you should probably take away vampire/vampire hunter
edit: thought of a good place for bm put it in the ret/witch group and say "your target knows things others do not" which puts him in a somewhat tough spot but definitely better than spy/bm.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:54 pm
by orangeandblack5
I moved Survivor in with Amne and Transporter, and moved BM to Framer and Forger.


This fits their roles more, and it works.

Vampire and Vampire hunter are included to future-proof the list, but the game will work fine just not including them until they are actually added.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:02 pm
by Flamingkamikaze
orangeandblack5 wrote:I moved Survivor in with Amne and Transporter, and moved BM to Framer and Forger.


This fits their roles more, and it works.

Vampire and Vampire hunter are included to future-proof the list, but the game will work fine just not including them until they are actually added.

Spoiler: Also, I totally thought that the link in your description was going to lead to happypuppies.net. I'm glad it didn't. ;)


having bm in that investigation result is pretty unfair seeing as how if anyone is bmd at all in the game it will be immediately obvious what you were

Spoiler: how many souls have I stolen?

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:06 pm
by orangeandblack5
Still better than being spy tested and then hanged if you ask me.

Plus, there can be a Framer AND Blackmailer, in which case you're MUCH safer than you would be with spy.

But yeah, it's not perfect. It's just a way to squeeze Survivor in there without taking up 4 possible roles (Amne/Trans/BM/Surv).

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:09 pm
by Flamingkamikaze
orangeandblack5 wrote:Still better than being spy tested and then hung if you ask me.

Plus, there can be a Framer AND Blackmailer, in which case you're MUCH safer than you would be with spy.

But yeah, it's not perfect. It's just a way to squeeze Survivor in there without taking up 4 possible roles (Amne/Trans/BM/Surv).


But what are the chances of that happening? Also its not that much better since now you would just get "he can be bm someone was bmd GET HIM!"

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:13 pm
by Jfire
This one's my favorite.
But I do like benjiboo's and Kiyosen's too.

This one seems the most balanced.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:16 pm
by Flamingkamikaze
I agree with Jfire the forger/framer/blackmailer is the most problematic however.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:20 pm
by orangeandblack5
Oh no doubt. However, without that Amne/Trans/BM becomes the most problematic. If we can fit Surv in somewhere else it could be great.

Or we could make it Amne/Trans/BM/Surv, but that's 4 roles (albeit 4 rare ones) in a single category.

Any way, work still needs to be done here.

Thank you both for your support!

Now I'm headed to bed. Final Exams tomorrow. Goodnight!

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 8:36 pm
by Kiyosen
BMer/Forger/Framer- Doesn't seem like much of a buff to be honest(Ranked-wise), but better than Spy/BMer for sure.
Jailor/Mayor/Spy- One controversy that I've met with is whether there should be a confirmed Town grouping. Either this would be really good or really bad depending on your POV.
Doctor/Vamp/SK- No need to comment on a sorta unchanged one.
Retributionist/Vamp Hunter/Witch- Semi-viable.
Arsonist/Lookout- Viable.
BG/Disguiser/WW- Surprised you put it with Disguiser, but still semi-viable.
Medium/Jester/Janitor- Feels like Jester's getting very helped here.
Sheriff/EXE/GF- Technically viable depending on what your purpose in doing this is.
Transporter/Amnesiac/Survivor- Personal opinion, but the Survivor should have some sort of suspicion.

Also, I'd rather not mess with the Vampire/Vampire Hunter yet, though I'm going to predict that the Vampires are going to be super broken. I want to know your main goal in making this so I can evaluate better. I think Bloodringe's is pure balance while mine is more on increasing doubt. Forgot what Elastoid's goal was, but meh.

I've also asked these questions too in my own topic. I want your answers too. This also helps me evaluate better.
-Do you think Medium/Janitor is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think Jester/Disguiser is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think there should be a confirmed Town result and why/why not?
-How screwed should the Godfather, Arsonist, and Werewolf be when investigated by an Investigator?

(Warning: Possible Insomnia Post)

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:42 pm
by Naru2008
Moved to Role Ideas.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 4:57 am
by orangeandblack5
If you think it would be better to, it could be a good idea to move BM back in with Amne/Trans/Surv and have 4 results, and from there you could potentially move Amnesiac or Transporter out if you wanted to. If you want that, let me know. Until then, I'll keep it as is.

The more I think about it the more I like Framer/Forger/BM. Giving a BM the ability to claim "Framed!" is definitely a huge buff over being paired with spy. Plus, smart Framers will be able to fake being BM'd, so anyone's "They got Framer/Forger/BM and somebody's been BM'd so their guilty!" will get the person they're framing lynched. Cautious BMs might never BM anybody so they can claim "I was framed" and get off the hook. This adds a lot of meta to the mafia without buffing anyone other than the Blackmailer.

My goal in making this list is to see if I can make a role list that's balanced out enough (or at least much better than the current one) but is also connected by lore. I think I did pretty well, but then again it is my list.

For your questions:
Spoiler: 1. Medium/Janitor is really close to fine, but it's still very much "LYNCH NOW". Adding Jester gives that element of doubt that was missing before, and a good Janitor can fake Medium to a Jailor (especially if they have the day to prepare).
2. I personally don't like Jester/Disguiser, as it's usually obvious if somebody is a Jester, and even then the target is both Vig and Jailor bait. Moving Jester to Janitor/Medium isn't much of a buff (that claim always gets hung, this one always gets killed), but it makes you think twice before killing a poor Jester. Moving Disguiser to WW/BG is a pretty nice buff, and it's hard to confirm BG (Disguiser needs this buff).
3. As you can tell from my list, I like a confirmed town result. That way nobody else is being COMPLETELY screwed by an investigation, but it's not too easy for them either. It would also work well to have something like Spy/BM/Lookout, however.
4. They shouldn't have an invincible defense, but with skill they should be able to throw off suspicion (not insta-screw).

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:31 am
by orangeandblack5
Also, might I inquire as to why my Investigator list was moved from Suggestions to Role Ideas?

Thank you all very much!

Please give more feedback!

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:41 am
by Gobln
Yo these are actually pretty jamming. Way better than any other ive seen.
Edit: this should be added now, if there are any balance changes such as Blackmailer seeing whispers or such then changes, of course, will happen.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:49 am
by Kirize12
These are pretty cool.

Also Vampire Hunter is Town.

Also I made new Investigation results too.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:52 am
by TrueGent
The only one I'm slightly iffy about is "Ret, Vampire Hunter, Witch", since we won't know how balanced it is until we know out how decent a claim Vampire Hunter is.

Other than that, this is one of the better lists I've seen.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:00 am
by orangeandblack5
Last time I checked up on Vampire Hunter it wasn't confirmed as a Town Role (if it was from the beginning I somehow missed that bit of information). I'll fix that.

And you're right. If Vampire Hunter is Town, it will throw the balance of that one off a bit (although that's not much of a problem yet).

Maybe I can do something with Vampire Hunter/Blackmailer...

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:01 am
by Gobln
I know the devs arent far with working on the Vamp hunter yet. They really need to consider making it a neutral Benign with the objective to kill the Vampire(s)

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:08 am
by orangeandblack5
Making it Neutral Benign would fix the balance issue that was just brought up. I hope that happens, because Vampire Hunter as town seems kinda... off.

Edit, months later: gob u suk

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 11:47 am
by Naru2008
orangeandblack5 wrote:Also, might I inquire as to why my Investigator list was moved from Suggestions to Role Ideas?

It deals with changes to a role. Therefor, it's a role idea. Where it belongs.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:23 pm
by orangeandblack5
Can anyone give me any suggestions on how to improve this? Because I've technically gotten none yet.

What do you think Naru2008?

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 2:41 pm
by Kiyosen
orangeandblack5 wrote:Can anyone give me any suggestions on how to improve this? Because I've technically gotten none yet.

Basically, you have to stick to a goal for the Investigator and keep that path as straight as you can. If you want pure balance, then get all the variables associated with the balance of the game and you might get something like Bloodringe's. I think that mine is basically the mix of balance, increased doubt, and hoping to keep or enhance the Classic feel. Basically like a jack-of-all-trades thing IMO(well that's what I think I'm doing, if not then explain in my thread what results are bad and why).

I can't really help you with anything else or else I'd most likely be suggesting actual changes, and I don't want to do that since that might risk in changing everything that you have. Not here to be a revolutionary lol.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:13 pm
by orangeandblack5
In that case, can I at least ask you if you prefer Framer/Forger/BM or Amne/Trans/BM/Surv?

I'm interested to see how people react to both of these (for obvious reasons).

If neither, do you like Trans/BM/Surv, keeping Amne as its own category?
Or do you like Amne/Trans/BM, putting Surv somewhere else? (And if so, where?)
Or would Ret/Witch/BM and Amne/Trans/Surv/Vampire Hunter work the best in the long run?

Please let me know your thoughts (I might reset poll with these as options in the future).

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 9:23 pm
by Gobln
though i still dont dig the Blackmailer one these are probably the best results we can get with the current role balance.
There will always be a result that sucks for a scum role, but this is almost as good as it gets.

Re: Investigator List Overhaul

PostPosted: Thu Jun 11, 2015 10:55 pm
by Kirize12
Four-in-one results ARE okay, however they are generally frowned upon.
That should NOT stop you from making one though.