Investigator Results List Overhaul v3.0

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:34 am

Framer/Forger/BMer is better than spy BMer but it's still not ideal.
Technically though if the investigator knows there is a blackmailer then any result yielding X/Blackmailer is likely the blackmailer.
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:49 am

UNLESS there's the possibility of a Framer. Then either three things happen:

1. The Blackmailer claims "framed" and people let him off the hook.
2. The Blackmailed claims "framed" and still gets hung...
After a ton of innocent people that were actually framed.
3. There is no Framer, and the overcautious Blackmailer (because they never blackmailed anybody before when it was instant-lynch if somebody investigated them) simply doesn't BM anybody. Then he claims "framed" and gets off the hook.


And I wasn't planning to use a 4-role result. I just want to know what people think about the possibility (but everybody seems to prefer Framer/Forger/Blackmailer anyways).
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby kookeekwisp » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:10 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Kept the Same:
Escort, Consort - Your target is a manipulative beauty. They must be an Escort or Consort.
Investigator, Consigliere - Your target gathers information. They must be an Investigator or Consigliere.
Vigilante, Veteran, Mafioso - Your target works with weapons. They must be a Vigilante, Veteran, or Mafioso.

Changes:
Framer, Forger, Blackmailer - Your target deceives the town. They must be a Framer, Forger, or Blackmailer.
Compared to being with Spy, Blackmailer gets a HUGE buff (see Edit #3).

Mayor, Jailor, Spy - Your target puts the Town above all else. They must be the Mayor, Jailor, or a Spy.
This stops any role from being put up against an instant-reveal townie.

Doctor, Serial Killer, Vampire - Your target is covered in blood. They must be a Doctor, Serial Killer, or Vampire.
Kept this the same, but added Vampire. EDIT: Until Vampire is added, "works with knives" is fine.

Retributionist, Vampire Hunter, Witch - Your target is a loner. They must be a Retributionist, Vampire Hunter, or Witch.
The loner category has been changed so it's not instant-lynch. EDIT: Until Vampire Hunter is added, "uses magic" is good.

Arsonist, Lookout - You target visits others frequently. They must be an Arsonist or Lookout.
The best way I could find to give arsonists some form of protection that's not Bodyguard (using BG for WW).

Disguiser, Bodyguard, Werewolf - Your target may not be what they seem. They must be a Disguiser, Bodyguard, or Werewolf.
This makes it a lot harder to just lynch a WW, as the threat of killing your BG should make people think.

Janitor, Medium, Jester - You target talks to themselves. They must be a Janitor, Medium, or Jester.
Adding Jester makes it much, much easier to not get lynched as Medium or Janitor.

Sheriff, Godfather, Executioner - Your target wants to gain others' trust. They must be a Sheriff, Godfather, or Executioner.
Way better for the Godfather, not much of a debuff for the Sheriff or Exe.

Amnesiac,Transporter, Survivor - Your target wants to be left alone. They must be an Amnesiac, Transporter, or Survivor.
Stops investigators forcing taking a town role on amnesiacs so quickly.[/spoiler]

I love the way you think about the role, but like i said about another investigator list-

***This is a psychiatrist, not an Investigator!***
Description: You secretly evaluate people at night to see what's in their head.


Also most of these make no sense at all.
For instance: Your target visits others frequently. They must be a Lookout or ARSONIST?!?!? (better result = Transporter, lookout or Sheriff, which would obviously be bad since all 3 are town)
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:21 am

Yeah, it's by no means a perfect list. I'll see if I can come up with any better descriptions for the current results list (as changing it isn't really a good idea when literally nobody has told me to yet).

If you can come up with better descriptions without changing the role list, please let me know!
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby PurpleSidewalk1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:04 am

I just feel like having 3 mafia roles in the same result is a pretty ridiculous thing to do. Just think of the rage on the forums. The salt in game. If I got BM, Forger, or Framer I would be kicking myself because the likelihood you are being put up to the stand is quite high and there is hardly any excuses if the investigator is proven. You could MAYBE say you were transported or framed or something. Even Forger, BM and Amnesiac together somehow with Framer all alone. Part of the Framer's role is to simply ensue distrust of the Framer result as an investigator, waste his time. IDK Maybe a better reason came up and I was too tired to read it. If this isn't even relevant anymore then don't bother replying.
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:29 am

That's exactly the point of putting 3 mafia into one result.

It can waste the Investigator's time SO MUCH.

If anyone would instant hang somebody with a Framer/Forger/BM result, then so many framed people would be hung that the vig or jailor would just kill the investigator and be done with him.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby PurpleSidewalk1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 11:35 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:That's exactly the point of putting 3 mafia into one result.

It can waste the Investigator's time SO MUCH.

If anyone would instant hang somebody with a Framer/Forger/BM result, then so many framed people would be hung that the vig or jailor would just kill the investigator and be done with him.

But you are missing the point that the Investigator's target and the Framer's target rarely line up. It is a higher chance for the Investigator to find the real Framer than to have to find the Framer's target that night. As well if there is a proven Blackmailer (fairly easy to tell) or if people who die have completely blank wills or wills that don't match their roles (implying a Forger) then the Framer game is up, that person is 100% Mafia. It increases the playibility (warning not real word) of the Framer, but decreased that of the Forger and Blackmailer. (Not sure why we keep having conflicting opinions orangeandblack5 a little odd actually)
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby benjiboo267 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:06 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Four-in-one results ARE okay, however they are generally frowned upon.
That should NOT stop you from making one though.


My issue with four-role results is that if you have a two-role result (50/50 chance you got an exact role), why make one with four roles? You have two two-role results, so creating a four-role result seems pointless. Stick one in a two-role result. I believe that the developers purposely didn't make any four-role results because that isn't what the Investigator is. The Investigator has the ability to find a precise clue to someone's role, not a clue that creates doubt. As long as every result includes a Town and evil role, there will always be doubt.
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby PurpleSidewalk1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:31 pm

benjiboo267 wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Four-in-one results ARE okay, however they are generally frowned upon.
That should NOT stop you from making one though.


My issue with four-role results is that if you have a two-role result (50/50 chance you got an exact role), why make one with four roles? You have two two-role results, so creating a four-role result seems pointless. Stick one in a two-role result. I believe that the developers purposely didn't make any four-role results because that isn't what the Investigator is. The Investigator has the ability to find a precise clue to someone's role, not a clue that creates doubt. As long as every result includes a Town and evil role, there will always be doubt.

It really dependents on the roles in the four role result. If one of them is Amnesiac, Survivor, something like that then it is understandable because they are a neutral making that information almost irrelevant. (not my entire argument just a tid bit so don't tear it apart it can be taken a lot of different ways just look at the general idea)
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:32 pm

PurpleSidewalk1 wrote:Not sure why we keep having conflicting opinions orangeandblack5 a little odd actually


That is weird. But I guess that's life. ;(

However, I feel like it would be super easy to fake being BM'd as a Framer, giving them a powerful alibi, or (if you're really going to be that cautious) never BM anybody as a BM, and then claim "I was framed."

However, this 3-mafia result is a buff to Framer and BM without affecting Forger too much.

Framer - Pretty much the same game. Still basically have to claim framed, but can now fake be BM'd ahead of time so it looks like he WAS framed. Also makes framed targets MUCH more suspicious.

Forger - No change at all (that I can think of).

Blackmailer - MASSIVE, MASSIVE buff. Not with spy + can claim framed = huge increase in longevity after investigated.

If you think I'm wrong about this and one of them is being de-buffed, please let me know how.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby PurpleSidewalk1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:36 pm

Honestly the only one I am skeptical on is the Blackmailer because he is being debuffed in the sense that he cannot perform his role unless he wants to not be able to claim he was framed. I know that he is with Spy know and that is complete BS with Spy being so provable and all. I just think he might go better with another role and just keep the Framer, Forger result the same. Or do whatever you would like to do, your topic not mine.
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 12:46 pm

So, if that is the case, where would you have me put him (without overhauling over 50% of the list please)?

I'm REALLY open to suggestions.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby PurpleSidewalk1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:00 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:So, if that is the case, where would you have me put him (without overhauling over 50% of the list please)?

I'm REALLY open to suggestions.

When I did the role "The Corrupt Cop" I used this: Your target doesn't remember who they are or they make people forget to speak. They must be either a Blackmailer or Amnesiac. :lol: might change this, but for now it stays. BUT THAT WAS REALLY STUPID! I am obviously not good with writing results for the Investigator, but if someone else can group it with Amnesiac then go ahead (then again Amnesiac is pretty easy to prove as well, but every role that isn't easy to prove is ungroupable with Blackmailer so you might have just found a sort of loop hole idk?)
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:42 pm

I think I'll keep it as is for now, as finding that result leads immediately to "join town tonight or die tomorrow".

But it is still better than the current "die now" result.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby TrueGent » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:54 pm

How about:

Your target visits others frequently. They must be an Arsonist, Lookout or Blackmailer.

Pros:
Gives Blackmailer a Lookout claim.
Allows Blackmailer to BM people.

Cons:
Nerfs Lookout, especially in a game with both an Arso and a BMer.
Lookout is a hard role to fake so having 2 scum roles with it may not be a good idea.

I feel this is better than Framer, Forger, BMer, but I'm still not sure if this is ideal.
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:11 pm

NICE IDEA! This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

I will change this and update the poll immediately.

Let me know what you think guys! Go vote!
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:14 pm

I just thought of something, and I need some feedback.

If I swap BM and VH, you get this:

Arsonist/Lookout/Vampire Hunter - Your target is paranoid. They must be an Arsonist, Lookout, or Vampire Hunter.

Retributionist/Witch/Blackmailer - Your target knows many secrets. They must be a Retributionist, Witch, or Blackmailer.

Is this good? Is it too much of a nerf for the Witch? Too much of a boost for the Arsonist?

Please let me know any and all thoughts on this idea.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby Kiyosen » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:20 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:I just thought of something, and I need some feedback.

If I swap BM and VH, you get this:

Arsonist/Lookout/Vampire Hunter - Your target is paranoid. They must be an Arsonist, Lookout, or Vampire Hunter.

Retributionist/Witch/Blackmailer - Your target knows many secrets. They must be a Retributionist, Witch, or Blackmailer.

Is this good? Is it too much of a nerf for the Witch? Too much of a boost for the Arsonist?

Please let me know any and all thoughts on this idea.

Again, I'm not really a fan of using the upcoming roles as a part of changing the Investigator's results. However, if I were to take those roles into account, I'd rather have the original than this one since it nerfs the Blackmailer and Witch pretty hard. Not much of a boost for the Arsonist though IMO.



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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby Gobln » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:26 pm

Kiyosen wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:I just thought of something, and I need some feedback.

If I swap BM and VH, you get this:

Arsonist/Lookout/Vampire Hunter - Your target is paranoid. They must be an Arsonist, Lookout, or Vampire Hunter.

Retributionist/Witch/Blackmailer - Your target knows many secrets. They must be a Retributionist, Witch, or Blackmailer.

Is this good? Is it too much of a nerf for the Witch? Too much of a boost for the Arsonist?

Please let me know any and all thoughts on this idea.

Again, I'm not really a fan of using the upcoming roles as a part of changing the Investigator's results. However, if I were to take those roles into account, I'd rather have the original than this one since it nerfs the Blackmailer and Witch pretty hard. Not much of a boost for the Arsonist though IMO.

its fine, his results are far better than yours in my opinion. Witch and Blackmailer are already put into awful pairings and personally i think its a big buff.
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:30 pm

Thank you for the super-quick feedback Kiyo.

Most people were complaining about how screwed Blackmailer was in Framer/Forger/BM category, yet you're saying that moving him out is a nerf. Does this mean that somebody (finally) at least kinda agrees with me on the whole Framer/Forger/BM thing?

And can you think of anything else I could do to improve Blackmailer's standing over the original?


As for Gobln, does that mean that you like the change, the original, or just don't care either way?
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby Kiyosen » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:31 pm

Gobln wrote:
Kiyosen wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:I just thought of something, and I need some feedback.

If I swap BM and VH, you get this:

Arsonist/Lookout/Vampire Hunter - Your target is paranoid. They must be an Arsonist, Lookout, or Vampire Hunter.

Retributionist/Witch/Blackmailer - Your target knows many secrets. They must be a Retributionist, Witch, or Blackmailer.

Is this good? Is it too much of a nerf for the Witch? Too much of a boost for the Arsonist?

Please let me know any and all thoughts on this idea.

Again, I'm not really a fan of using the upcoming roles as a part of changing the Investigator's results. However, if I were to take those roles into account, I'd rather have the original than this one since it nerfs the Blackmailer and Witch pretty hard. Not much of a boost for the Arsonist though IMO.

its fine, his results are far better than yours in my opinion. Witch and Blackmailer are already put into awful pairings and personally i think its a big buff.

I'll just say that we have different goals in making the results. Also, I do like to change mine a lot so there's that. Would also like to know what goal you want in the Investigator's results. Because I think we have different goals in mind.

And by original I meant Lookout/Blackmailer/Arsonist.



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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:40 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:My goal in making this list is to see if I can make a role list that's balanced out enough to work well (or at least much better than the current one) but is also connected by lore.


I'm trying to make an investigator list that is balanced (but not pure balance like Bloodringe's) AND connected by lore, whilst including confirmed future roles so it won't need to change for a while. I also want to stop roles that are currently screwed by investigators (Godfather, Blackmailer, Jester/Disguiser, WW/Witch/Surv, kinda Medium/Janitor) from being instantly screwed if possible (instant-confirm town, Medium/Janitor/Jester, etc). But I also want to make a list where it requires skill to pass yourself off as another role and not get hung.

I know your list is all about spreading doubt, and I personally think that you did that well.

But I want mine to be a "jack of all trades" kinda thing, with equal parts balance, doubt, skill, and lore.

Spoiler:
Kiyosen wrote:And by original I meant Lookout/Blackmailer/Arsonist.

So close!
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby Kiyosen » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:46 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:My goal in making this list is to see if I can make a role list that's balanced out enough to work well (or at least much better than the current one) but is also connected by lore.


I'm trying to make an investigator list that is balanced (but not pure balance like Bloodringe's) AND connected by lore, whilst including confirmed future roles so it won't need to change for a while. I also want to stop roles that are currently screwed by investigators (Godfather, Blackmailer, Jester/Disguiser, WW/Witch/Surv, kinda Medium/Janitor) from being instantly screwed if possible (instant-confirm town, Medium/Janitor/Jester, etc). But I also want to make a list where it requires skill to pass yourself off as another role and not get hung.

I know your list is all about spreading doubt, and I personally think that you did that well.

But I want mine to be a "jack of all trades" kinda thing, with equal parts balance, doubt, skill, and lore.

I was actually replying to Gobln there in that first part but at least you explained your main goal better. :D

EDIT: Okay, who edited this message? I saw the "So close!" thing and there were spoilers and stuff... :/
Last edited by Kiyosen on Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.



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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:55 pm

Why did you just quote me? Was there supposed to be other text?

EDIT: It appears that you put your text inside of your quote of my post.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

Spoiler: Help support my Investigator Results List Overhaul and Town of Salem 1.5 suggestions!
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Re: Investigator List Overhaul

Postby PurpleSidewalk1 » Fri Jun 12, 2015 10:21 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Does this mean that somebody (finally) at least kinda agrees with me on the whole Framer/Forger/BM thing?

Hey, I at least kinda agreed on your ideas there except I didn't think they were strong enough to justify it.

someone at some point wrote:Lookout/Blackmailer/Arsonist.

Brilliant! Lookout is actually super easy to fake if you (PRO TIP) ask if anyone was rb, transported, jailed, so on and so forth and write "nothing" on everyone you do but write another will below that has the nights and the people and who was rb, transported, jailed, so on and so forth then when you know the role of the escort/transporter/jailor or even can get an investigative/protectives will out of them then write the stuff in as you go for the nights before anything you don't know about just write "nothing" or rb.
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