Investigator's Results Revamp

[sirshitshimself]

This would make investigator useless. He needs to be able to confirm some roles and confirm some innocents. With these changes he'd be useless because every single result would be unclear.

[isrlygood]

This would make investigator useless. He needs to be able to confirm some roles and confirm some innocents. With these changes he'd be useless because every single result would be unclear.

Well he can call people out, then they need to prove themselves with their wills and such, and no, he isn't useless, he makes 31 possibilities into 2 or 3, if anyone claims anything else besides those roles they are probably bad too

[sirshitshimself]

This would make investigator useless. He needs to be able to confirm some roles and confirm some innocents. With these changes he'd be useless because every single result would be unclear.

Well he can call people out, then they need to prove themselves with their wills and such, and no, he isn't useless, he makes 31 possibilities into 2 or 3, if anyone claims anything else besides those roles they are probably bad too

1. Wills can be easily faked if you know what roles will show up when an Investigator investigates you(as most people who've played for a while do.)
2. Most player know what roles show up when an Investigator investigates them. They know only to claim the roles that the investigator could mistake them for.

[isrlygood]

This would make investigator useless. He needs to be able to confirm some roles and confirm some innocents. With these changes he'd be useless because every single result would be unclear.

Well he can call people out, then they need to prove themselves with their wills and such, and no, he isn't useless, he makes 31 possibilities into 2 or 3, if anyone claims anything else besides those roles they are probably bad too

1. Wills can be easily faked if you know what roles will show up when an Investigator investigates you(as most people who've played for a while do.)
2. Most player know what roles show up when an Investigator investigates them. They know only to claim the roles that the investigator could mistake them for.

Not all fake wills are believable, new players are not to familiar with them, which is a lot of the community I would assume

[sirshitshimself]

Well he can call people out, then they need to prove themselves with their wills and such, and no, he isn't useless, he makes 31 possibilities into 2 or 3, if anyone claims anything else besides those roles they are probably bad too

1. Wills can be easily faked if you know what roles will show up when an Investigator investigates you(as most people who've played for a while do.)
2. Most player know what roles show up when an Investigator investigates them. They know only to claim the roles that the investigator could mistake them for.

Not all fake wills are believable, new players are not to familiar with them, which is a lot of the community I would assume

It only takes about a week(or maybe a few weeks) of playing to understand how to write a decent will and to learn a lot of the Investigator's results. I learned both in a day or two of playing but I did play a lot but I'd say the average player could learn those things in a week or two. The vast majority of the playerbase knows how to write a good will and knows what the Investigator will get for most roles.

[Kiyosen]

This would make investigator useless. He needs to be able to confirm some roles and confirm some innocents. With these changes he'd be useless because every single result would be unclear.

The Investigator should be more of a hint guy. The Sheriff should be the guy who's able to home in on specifics. But that's just my take on the two roles.

Also reset poll and changed some stuff.

[sirshitshimself]

This would make investigator useless. He needs to be able to confirm some roles and confirm some innocents. With these changes he'd be useless because every single result would be unclear.

The Investigator should be more of a hint guy. The Sheriff should be the guy who's able to home in on specifics. But that's just my take on the two roles.

Also reset poll and changed some stuff.

I'd agree with this if a Sheriff was guaranteed but he isn't. Investigator shouldn't be too specific, like you said, but if all the results are too vague then he'll be too weak. Without a Sheriff to back him up, a lot of his results would be nearly useless.

[Kiyosen]

I did change it but is this currently too vague for you? I should probably rephrase that the Sheriff homes in on the roles that are very threatening(which are apparently the Mafia/SK/Werewolf on Full Moon). Also, I'd like you to answer these questions.
-Do you think Medium/Janitor is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think Jester/Disguiser is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think there should be a confirmed Town result and why/why not?
-How screwed should the Godfather, Arsonist, and Werewolf be when investigated by an Investigator? (This one seems to be the main question for you.)

[sirshitshimself]

I did change it but is this currently too vague for you? I should probably rephrase that the Sheriff homes in on the roles that are very threatening(which are apparently the Mafia/SK/Werewolf on Full Moon). Also, I'd like you to answer these questions.
-Do you think Medium/Janitor is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think Jester/Disguiser is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think there should be a confirmed Town result and why/why not?
-How screwed should the Godfather, Arsonist, and Werewolf be when investigated by an Investigator? (This one seems to be the main question for you.)

1. Yeah that's fine. It gives the Janitor a role he can pretend to be that isn't easily disproven.
2. No. It doesn't give a Disguiser a non-evil role to pretend to be.
3. Yeah. 1 or 2 is fine.
4. I agree with changing these, the Blackmailer and the Witch. Although I'm on the fence about changing the Godfather as the Sheriff can't tell the GF from a townie.

[orangeandblack5]

You PM'd me for my opinion on your list, so here goes:

Spoiler: Looking at this, you've changed it a bit since I last saw this thread. I like the changes!
List 1:
Jailor/Mayor/Spy - Unless the instant-confirm roles are debuffed, I like a spot for the 3 instant-confirm townies.
Transporter/Disguiser/Jester - I like this too, as this makes it harder to shoot/execute a Jester without doing much else.
Sheriff/Executioner/Godfather - Same as my list. Love this, as it gives the GF some good claim space for different accusations.
Doctor/Arsonist/Serial Killer - I feel as if this is a bit too much evil, as lynching somebody in this category has the potential to save MANY more lives than a Doc ever would.
Medium/Retributionist/Janitor - While my list makes it harder to lynch this role, yours made it easier to claim a role. Me gusta.
Bodyguard/Survivor/Werewolf - I like this one a lot, as it's now a 33/33/33 split of valuable roles instead of instant-hang.
Lookout/Witch/Blackmailer - This is a good solution to the Witch AND Blackmailer problems.
Amnesiac - Not sure I like keeping this one. Forcing Amne to join town or else die has never appealed to me (most Amnesiacs join town anyways, or wait until it's too late in the game to make a difference before becoming an evil role). But I'm cool with a Consigliere forcing them to join the Mafia, as it's a great strategy to keep the Mafia going and throw the town into chaos.

List 2:
Jailor/Mayor/Godfather - Really don't like. More risk for Jailor yes, less risk for Godfather no. Jailor just puts in death note his name or tells somebody he's jailed to tell everybody else that he's Jailor (if the person he has jailed is evil and doesn't say it he'll be executed tomorrow night).
Investigator/Spy/Consigliere - I guess this works. Not for it, but not quite against it.
Sheriff/Blackmailer - This is a very interesting way to take care of the Blackmailer problem. I like it, as making a fake Sheriff will as mafia is not that hard.
Lookout/Executioner/Witch - This will make the most common method of attempting to get your target lynched as an executioner swap from "I'm Sheriff he's SK" to "I'm lookout and he visited DeadGuy". This would have some interesting long-term results. I like it.


Out of the two lists, I definitely prefer List 1 with the confirmed town result. One of the biggest advantages of this is that Investigators know to leave those people alone and not make them reveal as Spy, Jailor, or Mayor when they otherwise wouldn't have to. In fact, I would honestly be just as happy to see your list added to the game as mine (although I do prefer mine [particularly the fact that amnesiac isn't its own result]). Great work as usual Kiyo. If you want to hear even more specific thoughts on anything in particular, let me know!

Spoiler: Something extra I thought of: what if the Investigator list had a result of Lookout/Sheriff/Executioner? WHAT THEN?
And what if it was Lookout/Sheriff/Executioner/Godfather???

[Kiyosen]

*Realizes that I have Sheriff/BMer and Invest/Spy/Consig*
*Puts Spy with Sheriff/BMer*

-Jailor/Mayor/Spy: The problem with these roles is pretty much claiming them. Mayors can reveal, Spies can do the Spy test, and the Jailor can just claim Jailor. I'd say this is kinda dependent on play-style. Obviously more favored toward the higher skilled players since these roles would most likely have already revealed.
-Jailor/Mayor/GF: This is pretty much going for a less instant-day lynch and wasting a night for the Jailor. Only a slight buff, but it's either that or a big buff. The main question is how buffed the GF should be when investigated(you said not very screwed but only a little bit). Also seems dependent on play-style.
-Doctor/Arsonist/SK: Usually there's only going to be one of the two NK's or none at all if it's a Werewolf. In the off-chance that there's both of these NK's, then the Doctor claim isn't really changed and still becomes suspicious.
-Amnesiac: Ah, so this is a preferential one. The problem with the Amnesiac is that they tend to side with whoever is winning anyway, further increasing the winning faction's numbers. Apparently, this means Town since the Town roles usually die first and they have the majority. The only thing I can think of without overhauling my current results would be Medium/Retributionist/Amnesiac/Janitor.

[orangeandblack5]

I would like to point out that making a new Investigator results list doesn't only affect Ranked.

In any Custom or All Any game the Doctor is just plain dead with an Arso/SK pairing, especially since the crazy people in Custom love their Arsonists (I keep telling them that 10 Arsonists is too many for one game, but they never listen).

Also, on the Jailor/Mayor/Godfather result, I do agree that it is better than the current Mayor/GF result. However, giving the Godfather one more night to live isn't that good (especially because they'll probably be Jailed or RB'd anyways). I'd like to make it so that you have to be either a REALLY good liar after you're investigated or a REALLY good planner and act like your role claim beforehand. This extra night of uselessness doesn't appeal to me much personally. Plus, I prefer Jailor/Mayor/Spy.

And don't worry about overhauling your results for my opinion on Amnesiac. As you once told me, I didn't come here to be a revolutionary.

All in all, great work on these lists! Keep it up!

[JazzMusicStops]

The only one i like is the retri one, which just about everyone has thought of

[Kiyosen]

I would like to point out that making a new Investigator results list doesn't only affect Ranked.

In any Custom or All Any game the Doctor is just plain dead with an Arso/SK pairing, especially since the crazy people in Custom love their Arsonists (I keep telling them that 10 Arsonists is too many for one game, but they never listen).

Also, on the Jailor/Mayor/Godfather result, I do agree that it is better than the current Mayor/GF result. However, giving the Godfather one more night to live isn't that good (especially because they'll probably be Jailed or RB'd anyways). I'd like to make it so that you have to be either a REALLY good liar after you're investigated or a REALLY good planner and act like your role claim beforehand. This extra night of uselessness doesn't appeal to me much personally. Plus, I prefer Jailor/Mayor/Spy.

And don't worry about overhauling your results for my opinion on Amnesiac. As you once told me, I didn't come here to be a revolutionary.

All in all, great work on these lists! Keep it up!

Though I am aware of how it affects all game modes, which was why one of my goals was to try to preserve or enhance the Classic feel, again this result is basically only increasing doubt on the Doctor if there's an Arsonist instead of an SK. Doubt stays the same otherwise. If this result gets too much hate, I might consider switching As for the GF controversy, it's all dependent on POV on how screwed the GF should be, which you said not very screwed. There's also the question on whether the Mayor should be forced to reveal when investigated, but that just ties in with the GF controversy.

But regardless of the revolutionary thing(lel gj), what are your thoughts on Medium/Retributionist/Amnesiac/Janitor? Just curious. Could be forgetting something, but meh.

[orangeandblack5]

I agree that Mayor SHOULD NOT be forced to reveal when investigated (another reason I like Mayor/Jailor/Spy).

However, I do think that Godfather should be in trouble when investigated. Just not completely screwed over.


Medium/Ret/Amne/Janitor... this is interesting.

It gives Amnesiac viable cover if they want to join Mafia, gives the Janitor viable cover to claim Medium or Retributionist (or Amnesiac if they would want to [but I don't know why anybody would ever want to...]), it gives the Medium a safety net so they don't get lynched, and it doesn't really affect the Ret (they still just revive that night for proof). If there is going to be a four-role result in the game, I feel like this could be one of the better ones.

[Getrektpls]

At some points I'd disagree with you.

Spy/blackmailer - the blackmailer can really spam votes to make himself look blackmailed and therefore making townies think he's a spy.
Medium/janitor - in my opinion it's very good.
Transporter/arsonist - this one causes chaos especially if there's more than one transporter and an arsonist. I like that. The investigator is useless then.
Mayor/godfather - I'd change it a little, too.
Bodyguard/jailor/lookout - just pretend you're an investigator when you're a consigliere and you gain townies' trust forever. You mentioned invest/town whispers but you never know if it isn't consig/town.
Sheriff/retributionist/executioner - although retributionist doesn't fit here well, with this option there's no confirmed sheriff because everyone might be an executioner. And vice versa. That's a good one I'd say.
Jester/disguiser - this one is risky. You can either have a mafia member dead or lose one of your fellow townies upon lynching a jester. This works if there's a transporter. But risks are what makes the game fun, after all.
Doctor/serial killer - I have no problems with this one. If a doctor has been doing great job by healing people he's rather confirmed, same if there are no deaths caused by the serial killer. If the doctor is meh, he deserves to get suspected. I might sound harsh but it's actually true.
Survivor/witch/werewolf - mhm, that kinda reveals someone's role from the start. It's like you make them hold a sign with "YOU CAN'T TRUST ME!" written on it.


The ideas are neat but not necessary. Please don't take that as a hate, it's just my own opinion .

[Kiyosen]

At some points I'd disagree with you.

Spy/blackmailer - the blackmailer can really spam votes to make himself look blackmailed and therefore making townies think he's a spy.
Medium/janitor - in my opinion it's very good.
Transporter/arsonist - this one causes chaos especially if there's more than one transporter and an arsonist. I like that. The investigator is useless then.
Mayor/godfather - I'd change it a little, too.
Bodyguard/jailor/lookout - just pretend you're an investigator when you're a consigliere and you gain townies' trust forever. You mentioned invest/town whispers but you never know if it isn't consig/town.
Sheriff/retributionist/executioner - although retributionist doesn't fit here well, with this option there's no confirmed sheriff because everyone might be an executioner. And vice versa. That's a good one I'd say.
Jester/disguiser - this one is risky. You can either have a mafia member dead or lose one of your fellow townies upon lynching a jester. This works if there's a transporter. But risks are what makes the game fun, after all.
Doctor/serial killer - I have no problems with this one. If a doctor has been doing great job by healing people he's rather confirmed, same if there are no deaths caused by the serial killer. If the doctor is meh, he deserves to get suspected. I might sound harsh but it's actually true.
Survivor/witch/werewolf - mhm, that kinda reveals someone's role from the start. It's like you make them hold a sign with "YOU CAN'T TRUST ME!" written on it.


The ideas are neat but not necessary. Please don't take that as a hate, it's just my own opinion .

I'd rather have a person who disagrees with me and has some form of reasoning than a person who agrees with me with no reasoning. But anyway, you did explain some points that I either overlooked or didn't mention, which is why I said at one point that I'm not good at explaining.

Spy/Blackmailer- This one was one that I overlooked but am aware of. However, a smart Investigator would more likely do a reaction test on said person that will get them talking before they do a Spy test. Many things to think about indeed, but I'd say that you've made the rating change to about a 3 or 4. Still not good though.
Medium/Janitor- Agreed, I think it's actually good too, which is why I rated it high.
Transporter/Arsonist- There's the part where I said "What if there's no Transporter", where the Arsonist is screwed if there isn't. Transporters are generally easily confirmable, so there's the problem.
Bodyguard/Jailor/Lookout- This possibility was basically my only reason why it's not rated a 1. Might bump it up to something like 4 or maybe even 5 due to your , but those ratings are still kind of bad because you still have to take into account that roles that can't be proven easily are put into this grouping.
Sheriff/Retributionist/Executioner- Like I said before, confirmed "not a threat". I'd keep at most 1 confirmed "not a threat" result. Sheriff/Executioner is why I rated it pretty high.
Jester/Disguiser- I rated this kinda high because of the case where there's no Town Killing role left, which you explained. If there is one however, it'd be pretty devastating for these two roles since it's confirmed not Town, which is why I'm actually on the fence for this one.
Doctor/SK- I also have no problems with it. However, the instant trust when there's no SK is what makes it rated an 8 instead of a 9. I obviously never rate things as a 10 unless I know it's perfect.
Mayor/GF and Survivor/Witch/WW- Those ones are very unfair to the GF, Witch, and WW. I understand both of the groupings' concepts, but it's pretty much going to screw the non-Town, especially Survivor/Witch/WW. I think the most requested changes were from these two and Spy/Blackmailer.

If paired with the ideas I mentioned at the bottom of the OP, some of these would actually be fine, namely the Spy/Blackmailer and Transporter/Arsonist groupings. Vigilante/Veteran/Mafioso would be even better when the Veteran(at the very least) has no death note.

Would also like your opinion on these questions, which I might as well add to the OP:

-Do you think Medium/Janitor is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think Jester/Disguiser is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think there should be a confirmed Town result and why/why not?
-How screwed should the Godfather, Arsonist, and Werewolf be when investigated by an Investigator?

Answering these questions will help me in improving these results.

[Getrektpls]

-Do you think Medium/Janitor is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think Jester/Disguiser is fine and why/why not?
-Do you think there should be a confirmed Town result and why/why not?
-How screwed should the Godfather, Arsonist, and Werewolf be when investigated by an Investigator?

Answering these questions will help me in improving these results.

-Medium/janitor is fine just because of what you've said. The medium knows the role of the dead person and so does the janitor. The town can't know who to trust.
-Jester/disguiser... your reply actually made me realise how deadly a vigilante or the jailor is to those roles. But, on the other hand, the disguiser can disguise before having his role revealed and jester... yeah, you always gotta try to get lynched quickly as this one.
-I'm fine with sheriff/retri/exe. Not this much with bg/jailor/lookout but, as I said, consiglieres might use that to their advantage. I don't have anything against a change.
-As much as any other role. But this would require a revamp.

Let's just put it another way, TRY NOT TO ACT SUSPICIOUS PLAYING THOSE ROLES .


And I'm glad I could help ;P.

[Kiyosen]

Replaced the previous experimental result list with another list. Poll is also reset.

[isrlygood]

jesus, there is a lot of weight on the Bodyguard and Lookout with the experimental

[orangeandblack5]

jesus, there is a lot of weight on the Bodyguard and Lookout with the experimental

Yeah there is...

[Kiyosen]

jesus, there is a lot of weight on the Bodyguard and Lookout with the experimental

Yeah there is...

It's experimental after all.

Any problems with it though besides too much neutrals/scum paired with them/4-role result?

[Bloodringe]

I've 90% pulled out of discussing invest results since what I want isn't what others want. Yes I still like mine, but I wont hound it.

But regards to lookout/bodyguard weight.
Bodyguard-One of (if not) the most valuable town, especially since it cant confirm.
Lookout-One of the best evil claims, useful enough to pause and not confirmable.

So yes... They are very useful in balancing. And could potentially handle that much weight (since confirmable roles are shit and ruin invest results so much. 7! Instant confirms... 3 more semi.)
So out of the 4 that can't:Bodyguard,lookout,sheriff, and investigator. Bodyguard and lookout are the most valued (invest is taken by consig. And sheriff... Well...)

[Kiyosen]

I've 90% pulled out of discussing invest results since what I want isn't what others want. Yes I still like mine, but I wont hound it.

But regards to lookout/bodyguard weight.
Bodyguard-One of (if not) the most valuable town, especially since it cant confirm.
Lookout-One of the best evil claims, useful enough to pause and not confirmable.

So yes... They are very useful in balancing. And could potentially handle that much weight (since confirmable roles are shit and ruin invest results so much. 7! Instant confirms... 3 more semi.)
So out of the 4 that can't:Bodyguard,lookout,sheriff, and investigator. Bodyguard and lookout are the most valued (invest is taken by consig. And sheriff... Well...)

Awww, but I waaaant you to say your opinion...Bloodringe come baaaack to ussssss
(It helps)

[orangeandblack5]

I've 90% pulled out of discussing invest results since what I want isn't what others want. Yes I still like mine, but I wont hound it.

But regards to lookout/bodyguard weight.
Bodyguard-One of (if not) the most valuable town, especially since it cant confirm.
Lookout-One of the best evil claims, useful enough to pause and not confirmable.

So yes... They are very useful in balancing. And could potentially handle that much weight (since confirmable roles are shit and ruin invest results so much. 7! Instant confirms... 3 more semi.)
So out of the 4 that can't:Bodyguard,lookout,sheriff, and investigator. Bodyguard and lookout are the most valued (invest is taken by consig. And sheriff... Well...)

Awww, but I waaaant you to say your opinion...Bloodringe come baaaack to ussssss
(It helps)

At least Bodyguard is valuable enough to warrant letting them live.

Only the best Lookouts are valuable enough to stop the Town from just lynching them at that point.