Investigator's Results Revamp

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Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Mon May 18, 2015 10:39 pm

[UPDATED AS OF 8/8/16, Overhauled list. Got rid of my old review of the old results and introductory stuff since patch 1.5 is out now.potentially an insomnia edit on the FAQ but whatever]

The results overall are technically okay but there are some bad ones, specifically VH/Survivor/Witch. This is my personal preferred list as of the date above. I regret not emphasizing 4-role results in the other thread when I should have.

Spoiler: Your target is very manipulative. Escort/Transporter/Consort (unchanged)
Your target has sensitive information to reveal. Investigator/Mayor/Consigliere (unchanged)
Your target may not be what they seem. Jester/Vampire/Framer (unchanged)
Your target keeps to themselves. Jailor/Spy/Vigilante/Blackmailer (Added Vig to help Blackmailer get a more viable alternate claim. Because Jailor is generally not a good alternative for obvious reasons.)
Your target deals with dead bodies. Medium/Retributionist/Amnesiac/Janitor (Added Amnesiac. Shouldn't do much as Amnesiacs are confirmable.)
Your target seems to hold a grudge. Sheriff/Vampire Hunter/Executioner/Disguiser (Added VH as filler. Disguiser instead of Werewolf because it's pretty easy to know what the NK role is early on. Makes Investigators less certain of alignment IMO and also decreases pressure on it.)
Your target sticks to the shadows. Lookout/Witch/Arsonist/Forger (Arsonist is here because I feel that it can make better use of a Lookout claim. Witch being with Lookout is great due to them using their ability to incriminate certain visits.)
Your target is insensitive to blood. Doctor/Veteran/Serial Killer/Mafioso (Mafioso instead of Disguiser to increase pressure on the Doctor and give the Mafioso better claim space. Veteran is added as filler.)
Your target is not afraid to get their hands dirty. Bodyguard/Survivor/Werewolf/Godfather (Added Survivor to give it a viable Town claim. Werewolf instead of Arsonist because I felt that Arsonist is better off with Lookout than Werewolf.)


Experimental Changes/Questions in Mind: (These changes are independent of one another so keep that in mind.)
  • Arsonist and Werewolf can be switched depending on which role needs more pressure or simply a better claim.

FAQ:
Q: Why are there 4-role groupings?
A: In the game's current state, it's impossible to have a good list without doing this. And IMO, a list is as good as its worst result. VH/Survivor/Witch is really hard on Survivor and Witch so the list is bad. I'd personally try to limit to 3 but like I said, it doesn't seem like it's possible right now. Too little non-confirmable Town to be used as claim space for scum results and too little Mafia roles to give potential results a good amount of uncertainty.

Q: Why does this say "Your target (insert flavor text here)" for (insert role grouping here)? It doesn't seem to fit.
A: Well first of all, if you're suggesting a change in one of my results, then remember that balance should always be considered first, not lore. Second of all, if you can suggest some better flavor text, then by all means please help. Because I'm mostly just reusing the current ones.[/list]

I'd like to put this link up since I really like the suggestions in there. HOWEVER, I did not take any changes into account at all, at least for my normal versions.
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 14&t=21784
Last edited by Kiyosen on Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:16 pm, edited 83 times in total.



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby SpellChecker » Tue May 19, 2015 4:48 am

Basically, this would bundle up the whole town investigation results and make it confusing, it would be harder for them to find who is evil and who isn't.
  
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Juuhazan » Tue May 19, 2015 5:46 am

That's kind of the point... it's supposed to make it more lenient on scum and vice-versa, and removes cases of "Reveal or die!"

EDIT: In any case, I like these new results. Aside from the Sheriff/Exe/Arso, I think they're pretty sound.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Bloodringe » Tue May 19, 2015 8:37 am

You know I respect you Kiyo, but id like to point out I put mine up yesterday.
MyResults
As for your results, they all seem sub par.
You moved the transporter in with the disguiser and jester, honestly I did the same with the ret.

But you just move the arsonist in the sheriff and exe.
You also just moved the bodyguard in with the mayor and godfather.(Should the godfather have such a claim?)
You just moved the amnesiac with the medium and janitor.(Didn't do anything for the janitor, people don't really claim amnesiac do they)
You just moved the ret with the survivor and werewolf.(Really? Werewolf is still screwed.)
Lookout,witch,blackmailer looks like it took some effort.

You barely made changes, and what you did make doesn't do much. Sorry, I don't like them.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Gobln » Tue May 19, 2015 8:41 am

The ret one, thats still awful for Werewolf.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Tue May 19, 2015 9:09 am

Bloodringe wrote:You know I respect you Kiyo, but id like to point out I put mine up yesterday.
MyResults
As for your results, they all seem sub par.
You moved the transporter in with the disguiser and jester, honestly I did the same with the ret.

But you just move the arsonist in the sheriff and exe.
You also just moved the bodyguard in with the mayor and godfather.(Should the godfather have such a claim?)
You just moved the amnesiac with the medium and janitor.(Didn't do anything for the janitor, people don't really claim amnesiac do they)
You just moved the ret with the survivor and werewolf.(Really? Werewolf is still screwed.)
Lookout,witch,blackmailer looks like it took some effort.

You barely made changes, and what you did make doesn't do much. Sorry, I don't like them.

There's some that I have to think about more, you're right about that one. But there's some that are fine. The bad thing about these results is that there's going to be that one role/grouping that throws you off. But I will definitely do something about this since I used other variables that you didn't use. As for the Retributionist grouping, that was to see people's responses. I like putting in the Medium better but I guess I'll just change a lot more things. Also, I like your masterpiece one Blood, so I'll use that and give you credit. And yes, I was aware of your list but I wanted my own list anyway.

For now, I'll blame insomnia for this list lol. I will change this a lot...when I get home...



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Thu May 21, 2015 8:59 am

Got home and evaluated it. It's still good. I may not have an initial reasoning for it, but I'm putting it up there to see if you guys can fill in the gaps. Also, less-insomnia initial responses to the quote are in blue.Not double-post because I have good-ish quality info.
Bloodringe wrote:You know I respect you Kiyo, but id like to point out I put mine up yesterday.
MyResults
As for your results, they all seem sub par.
You moved the transporter in with the disguiser and jester, honestly I did the same with the ret. Yep, the Transporter and Retributionist are auto-confirm(Retributionist to a lesser degree). Jester/Disguiser is actually fine IMO.

But you just move the arsonist in the sheriff and exe. The Arsonist needs a better claim coverage anyway. Its slow killing speed is what balances the Arsonist out.Sheriff/Transporter/Arsonist isn't much better either IMO.
You also just moved the bodyguard in with the mayor and godfather.(Should the godfather have such a claim?) The Godfather needs a better claim and I can't use any of the other roles since it would screw up one of my variables(listed in the mini-paragraph).
You just moved the amnesiac with the medium and janitor.(Didn't do anything for the janitor, people don't really claim amnesiac do they) When people didn't read my key that time(it's edited out now, so you're out of luck)... :/
You just moved the ret with the survivor and werewolf.(Really? Werewolf is still screwed.) I've confirmed with switching the Retributionist with the Medium. Just wanted to see responses. Also applies to your comment above.
Lookout,witch,blackmailer looks like it took some effort. This one actually took no effort, lol. It was a result of one role being left out(not the Witch, but I think probably Retributionist or something).

You barely made changes, and what you did make doesn't do much. Sorry, I don't like them. The question is, does the results even need a lot of major changes? I'd say not exactly.



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby isrlygood » Sun May 24, 2015 10:19 pm

Isn't the janitor kinda screwed since amne and ret are easily confirmable?
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby lionon » Mon May 25, 2015 4:32 am

isrlygood wrote:Isn't the janitor kinda screwed since amne and ret are easily confirmable?


Since the janitor is next to the godfather himself the strongest mafia role, this woudln't be too unfair to him.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Mute » Mon May 25, 2015 5:28 pm

I always thought that having witch and retributionist together would make a lot of sense.

Your target has strange powers, they must be a witch or retributionist.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Mon May 25, 2015 5:42 pm

Mute wrote:I always thought that having witch and retributionist together would make a lot of sense.

Your target has strange powers, they must be a witch or retributionist.

One of my past results when trying to make this was Retributionist/Witch/Werewolf, but I think I ended up stuck with a few roles that were forced to be together and they were not compatible at all. But yeah, I'm trying to go for balance and keeping the Classic feel for the Investigator for these results. It's actually really hard to do because of all the variables I'm trying to take into account and I even have doubts on these results myself.



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Mroz4k » Tue May 26, 2015 6:07 am

Bloodringe wrote: Spoiler: You know I respect you Kiyo, but id like to point out I put mine up yesterday.
MyResults
As for your results, they all seem sub par.
You moved the transporter in with the disguiser and jester, honestly I did the same with the ret.

But you just move the arsonist in the sheriff and exe.
You also just moved the bodyguard in with the mayor and godfather.(Should the godfather have such a claim?)
You just moved the amnesiac with the medium and janitor.(Didn't do anything for the janitor, people don't really claim amnesiac do they)
You just moved the ret with the survivor and werewolf.(Really? Werewolf is still screwed.)
Lookout,witch,blackmailer looks like it took some effort.

You barely made changes, and what you did make doesn't do much. Sorry, I don't like them.


I hate to say it, but those few changes, they make Kiosen´s suggestion for Investigator results 10 times better then what you suggested - I dont want to sound too rude, but your list of choices was so far the weakest I have seen around the Forums. It made the game unbalanced, thought I guess it would be a bit better then the current Vanilla ones.

For Kiosen´s list:

Arsonists claim of a Sheriff is very weak - reason: If you have Arsonist in a later game, and people go for Role-call, Sheriff is a weak role to claim as an Arsonist - because Sheriff cant find the Arsonist. Everyone who has half brain in their head will realize this and lynch the Sheriff. In 7 out of 8 cases, this would be Arsonist, not a Sheriff.
So that one is not good enough.

Godfather - this one is a bit better then the current one. But I will say it again - I feel that Investigator is supposed to be a special anti-GF weapon. So I dont believe it is for the best to change that one, if anything I would add Survivor on the GF + Mayor, as this would make things a bit harder for Survivor. On top of that, Survivor claim would be a possibility for GF if accused, but this would be emergency, stalling claim. I like your better.

Werewolf - this on is identical to the list posted by Elastoid - as much as I liked that one too, this is horrible choice. Like HORRIBLY HORRIBLE.
Medium claim for Werewolf or Survivor is no claim at all - you will be lynched, immidiatedly, as keeping Medium alive with a chance to lynch Werewolf is a poor chance. Werewolf has no defense as a role. The only thing that will make it somehow fair would be to give it almost bulletproof claim. Like BG and Jailor.

Lookout Witch Blackmailer - not bad, dont sell yourself so short on that one. Thats 8 at least - its definitedly much better then the current ones.

Transporter, Jester, Disguiser - now in my own suggestion, I suggested that adding Transporter as a lone role, and Jester Disguiser as another suggestion. This actually is pretty cool choice - applause. 10/10

Jailor and Spy - horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible. Like seriously, horrifying. Confirmed Jailor. Its even worse then confirmed Mayor... you inspect someone who comes out as Jailor/Spy, then you whisper a message to someone you trust asking the Spy to whisper you back, if they dont, they are Jailor.Ta-da! You can whisper him your investigations, he will cross reference it with his own list - and you have supercharged Jailor Investigator combo.
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FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Bloodringe » Tue May 26, 2015 6:38 am

Mroz4k wrote:
Bloodringe wrote: Spoiler: You know I respect you Kiyo, but id like to point out I put mine up yesterday.
MyResults
As for your results, they all seem sub par.
You moved the transporter in with the disguiser and jester, honestly I did the same with the ret.

But you just move the arsonist in the sheriff and exe.
You also just moved the bodyguard in with the mayor and godfather.(Should the godfather have such a claim?)
You just moved the amnesiac with the medium and janitor.(Didn't do anything for the janitor, people don't really claim amnesiac do they)
You just moved the ret with the survivor and werewolf.(Really? Werewolf is still screwed.)
Lookout,witch,blackmailer looks like it took some effort.

You barely made changes, and what you did make doesn't do much. Sorry, I don't like them.


I hate to say it, but those few changes, they make Kiosen´s suggestion for Investigator results 10 times better then what you suggested - I dont want to sound too rude, but your list of choices was so far the weakest I have seen around the Forums. It made the game unbalanced, thought I guess it would be a bit better then the current Vanilla ones.

For Kiosen´s list:

Arsonists claim of a Sheriff is very weak - reason: If you have Arsonist in a later game, and people go for Role-call, Sheriff is a weak role to claim as an Arsonist - because Sheriff cant find the Arsonist. Everyone who has half brain in their head will realize this and lynch the Sheriff. In 7 out of 8 cases, this would be Arsonist, not a Sheriff.
So that one is not good enough.

Godfather - this one is a bit better then the current one. But I will say it again - I feel that Investigator is supposed to be a special anti-GF weapon. So I dont believe it is for the best to change that one, if anything I would add Survivor on the GF + Mayor, as this would make things a bit harder for Survivor. On top of that, Survivor claim would be a possibility for GF if accused, but this would be emergency, stalling claim. I like your better.

Werewolf - this on is identical to the list posted by Elastoid - as much as I liked that one too, this is horrible choice. Like HORRIBLY HORRIBLE.
Medium claim for Werewolf or Survivor is no claim at all - you will be lynched, immidiatedly, as keeping Medium alive with a chance to lynch Werewolf is a poor chance. Werewolf has no defense as a role. The only thing that will make it somehow fair would be to give it almost bulletproof claim. Like BG and Jailor.

Lookout Witch Blackmailer - not bad, dont sell yourself so short on that one. Thats 8 at least - its definitedly much better then the current ones.

Transporter, Jester, Disguiser - now in my own suggestion, I suggested that adding Transporter as a lone role, and Jester Disguiser as another suggestion. This actually is pretty cool choice - applause. 10/10

Jailor and Spy - horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible horrible. Like seriously, horrifying. Confirmed Jailor. Its even worse then confirmed Mayor... you inspect someone who comes out as Jailor/Spy, then you whisper a message to someone you trust asking the Spy to whisper you back, if they dont, they are Jailor.Ta-da! You can whisper him your investigations, he will cross reference it with his own list - and you have supercharged Jailor Investigator combo.

Spoiler: You do sound rude, in fact you are rude. Almost always, at least recently.
Your entitled to your opinion (and you sure are aware of that), but I'd like to clarify opinion.
Do you know how many people disagreed with my list? You.
I wish more would, but from what I see its just your viewpoint fighting each and every result that comes along. So say what you will, I looked at your comments on mine, and I responded to each one. Your rating are far to wide and show clear signs of lack of consideration for all factors. Your just as willing to throw an 8 at 4-6 as you are a 2, its called a middle grounds Mroz4k, people use it to asses things accurately.
"It made the game unbalanced" What? First, its not even in the game. But ignoring that fact, do you really want to talk balance?
Again there are other factors, currently town has everything. Death notes, confirmable roles, Instant Investigator lynchings . My results affected 1 of those things against the town, a single town role. And you want to say it made the game unbalanced.
Here's my opinion, you used to have insight. Now all I see you do is talk in circles and either criticize or complain about everything. Not only that your reviews appear, again just my opinion, to be less and less thought out and more just hateful.
You are losing what I thought made you a good community member, I'm sad to say it, and I hate whatever caused it.


Kiyo, I'd say keep working. Hell even Elastoid wants to rework his, same with me but I'm more certain in more aspects of mine. Not all of course, there is always room for improvement.
A few things that might be helpful, medium's best bet might be to go with a unique/kinda confirmable town role and either the witch or a lower mafia. Also Mafioso could be 66% mafia with disguiser, but you'd have to use a powerful town member for cover. Anyway good luck.

Edit:I apologize Kiyosen, I realize that discussion does not belong on this thread so I spoilered everything I said. I do have more to speak about mroz4k's response, if I didn't what kind of forum member would I be. But again, doesn't go here, sorry for pulling away from your OP.
Last edited by Bloodringe on Tue May 26, 2015 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Mroz4k » Tue May 26, 2015 9:02 am

First of all, if you have opinion on me, I´d appreciated you took it with me in PMs.

I admit I am being a bit too rude in this case, then again I´d say the same can be said about your post considering Kiosen´s suggestion. Read it again. You are complaining as if he stole all your ideas, when in fact he only inspired himself with yours, and with Elastoids, and maybe even by mine. Fact is, Kiosen does his homework so I am not surprised he used whatever he considered to be good from your list. Its not like you have author rights to any of it... on top of that, you sticked an URL to your opinion right on the top of that. Cause thats not needy at all...

Just saying.
And I really dont intend to get Kiosen´s suggestion locked because of a stupid argument. Got more to say - PM it to me. Be proffesional.

Here is something more that I have to say to your addition, rest I am happy to solve with you in PM´s: Spoiler: You know what I said about yours - and though you say that you can take constructive criticism, when I pointed out what parts are wrong with yours, you didnt exactly focus on that, you only pointed out the ones I didnt give you any feedback on (because frankly, I consider Meh or its alright to be enough of a feedback if I consider that particular change to be good). So, you dont take criticism very well...

Here is what you didnt consider - many people like you as a person, and they wont tell you straight up what they trully think. The fact that I am so opened to everyone makes it easier for people to not like me very much, and if they dont like me too much they are more likely to tell me what they really think (kind of like what you did right now).That is why I am the only one who critized your list. Not to mention I wasnt the only one - your list completedly lacked some sort of a lore... and people complained about that too. So if anything, your list was not even complete.

On top of that, if I do say something, I try to consider all the possibilities the game has, all the gamemodes, all the role interactions, everything. Your suggestion had a heck of a lot more holes in it then this suggestion, the initial collab suggestion you did with Elastoid, or even then mine. That makes your suggestion the weakest of the suggested ones.

Oh, and I was a lot more agressive, but thats not really true anymore. I am still straight with everyone, but I am not hostile to everyone right of the bat, not anymore. I´ve since them calmed myself a lot.
When it comes to suggestion, I say what I think about it, and I dont sugarcoat it in excuses or praises. If you cant appreciate that, your loss.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby lionon » Tue May 26, 2015 11:00 am

I considered all investator result suggestions so far better than what we have now, which IMO has little balancing thought put it, rather than what sounded fit to the role "storywise".
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Lizzie0 » Tue May 26, 2015 11:18 am

One by one~

Your target has confidential information. They must be a Jailor or Spy. Better than the old one since spy and jailor are already easily confirmable so i dont see why it shouldnt be in the same category to limit scum being with confirmable role in the same investigator results.
Your target somehow causes deception. They must be a Transporter*, Jester, or Disguiser. Good~
Your target seems to have a grudge. They must be a Sheriff, Executioner*, or Arsonist. This nerf the sheriff even more by becoming less easy to prove but i guess it wont matter if no one was doused.
Your target likes to stay incognito. They must be a Bodyguard*, Mayor, or Godfather. Nice especially in mayor games
Your target likes to visit the graveyard. They must be a Retributionist*, Amnesiac, or Janitor. This nerfs the janitor and the amnesiac but i guess the only weakness to the janitor is investigator/sheriff nowadays no one believes the sheriff And it limit the amnesiac acting like a secondary survivor so Good~
Your target is a loner. They must be a Medium*, Survivor, or Werewolf*. Good although i cant imagine townies believing the werewolf when he claims medium.
Your target is paranoid of others' actions. They must be a Lookout, Witch*, or Blackmailer. I dont know about this one since if townie were alerted to the presence of witch/blackmailer (which gonna happen since blackmailed targets spam vote and controlled targets usually tell town) they wont believe any lookout claim easily but good play from the witch will make her able to claim lookout, dunno about the blackmailer though.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Bloodringe » Tue May 26, 2015 11:25 am

Mroz4k wrote: Spoiler: First of all, if you have opinion on me, I´d appreciated you took it with me in PMs.

I admit I am being a bit too rude in this case, then again I´d say the same can be said about your post considering Kiosen´s suggestion. Read it again. You are complaining as if he stole all your ideas, when in fact he only inspired himself with yours, and with Elastoids, and maybe even by mine. Fact is, Kiosen does his homework so I am not surprised he used whatever he considered to be good from your list. Its not like you have author rights to any of it... on top of that, you sticked an URL to your opinion right on the top of that. Cause thats not needy at all...

Just saying.
And I really dont intend to get Kiosen´s suggestion locked because of a stupid argument. Got more to say - PM it to me. Be proffesional.

Here is something more that I have to say to your addition, rest I am happy to solve with you in PM´s you know what I said about yours - and though you say that you can take constructive criticism, when I pointed out what parts are wrong with yours, you didnt exactly focus on that, you only pointed out the ones I didnt give you any feedback on (because frankly, I consider Meh or its alright to be enough of a feedback if I consider that particular change to be good). So, you dont take criticism very well...

Here is what you didnt consider - many people like you as a person, and they wont tell you straight up what they trully think. The fact that I am so opened to everyone makes it easier for people to not like me very much, and if they dont like me too much they are more likely to tell me what they really think (kind of like what you did right now).That is why I am the only one who critized your list. Not to mention I wasnt the only one - your list completedly lacked some sort of a lore... and people complained about that too. So if anything, your list was not even complete.

On top of that, if I do say something, I try to consider all the possibilities the game has, all the gamemodes, all the role interactions, everything. Your suggestion had a heck of a lot more holes in it then this suggestion, the initial collab suggestion you did with Elastoid, or even then mine. That makes your suggestion the weakest of the suggested ones.

Oh, and I was a lot more agressive, but thats not really true anymore. I am still straight with everyone, but I am not hostile to everyone right of the bat, not anymore. I´ve since them calmed myself a lot.
When it comes to suggestion, I say what I think about it, and I dont sugarcoat it in excuses or praises. If you cant appreciate that, your loss.

Real quick since it actually has to do with this thread, I never meant to seem like I thought he was stealing from me. I dont, never did. What may have made it seem like that was the link I included, which was not my most informed decision. I'm all for new results that aren't even mine, I just didn't agree with the direction his had at the time.
If it still has that direction (I believe it does) that's fine, and I hope it can reach the goal it wants to achieve. I do have more to say, but it doesn't belong here so I will take it elsewhere.
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Tue May 26, 2015 11:47 am

Based on what I can get from this(ignoring the argument part, I feel like a Survivor in a king-making scenario here lolALSO KIOSEN T.T):

  • I thought of doing BG/Survivor/Werewolf at one point but I think I remembered that I got stuck with Medium/Arsonist after arranging the leftover results, and that's obviously terrible for many reasons.
  • I don't sort things by how valuable a role is in Ranked(because the Medium, a "lower tier role", can counter the Janitor, a "higher tier role".), but by similarities in function, potential power during both day and night, and risk/reward. Balance was always my main goal in mind, but I also wanted to take in other factors too, like preserving the Classic feel for the Investigator(being able to find the Godfather and Jester but not the SK, can still be fooled by Framers, and is semi-sure about the Mafioso and Executioner). I could be forgetting other variables that I also used, but ehhh...I'll remember later
  • The Lookout is actually a pretty good role to fake as, you're right there Lizzie. I might think of switching the Witch with the Arsonist since people say that the Lookout is generally better than the Sheriff. What do you guys think of Lookout/Blackmailer/Arsonist and Sheriff/Executioner/Witch? Though I might have to think about other results too, so that might even change.
  • Also want to note that some groupings are a result of having leftover roles that are hard to group together. I'm obviously still working on changing this.

EDIT: Also added another result that I was working on, which tries to put away the confirmed Town result and incorporated some other stuff you guys said though it kinda changed things involving the Jailor and Godfather(can be argued that it makes it easier for Executioners to lynch Jailor targets).



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Mroz4k » Tue May 26, 2015 2:39 pm

Well, first of all there is one point that is missing here - and that was brought to my attention by Elastoid on his suggestion - we all should first try to specify what the real goal of the suggestion is in here:

For example, I find the first one by Elastoid and Bloodringe to be quite good, if the main focus was to turn the Investigator results into rather balanced state but with focus on Investigator´s "Role confirmation" ability(that is pretty much the main reason of Investigator on Ranked). What I mean by that is that according to Elastoid´s list, his main focus was to turn Investigator into someone who confirms if the person did not lie about their role. It would be essential role after the typical Mayor whisperfest - when Investigator would re-confirm if people are lying.

In that case, his suggestions were rather good. If this was your goal too, Mr. Kiosen, then your suggestion is rather good as well. So could be said about Bloodringe´s (though I still like that one the least, but that is just my opinion).

If I am to bring out my suggestion (which I am hoping to re-make after I get more time to do so) my goal was to ultimatedly nerf down Investigator. No argument there - if we for a second forget that Spy can be of great help during role whispering, then Investigator is by far the best Investigative role - and so I think it would be fitting to nerf him, essentially nerfing down Town a bit and making the Investigative roles a bit more balanced as a sub-alignment. This on its own is very unpopular opinion, because people generally love Investigator and dont want him nerfed (you can see it quite often on signatures of people, Jailor and Investigator are among the most favorite roles of many people).

So, my focus was to try and fit in the most dangerous roles like Neutral Killing with the Town roles (always with a strong Town Role, and a weaker one), and then fit the rest into investigations to have one Neutral, one Mafia, and one Town role of similar strenghts in same investigation tags. This would result in more uncertain investigations for Investigator, and in the end that means weaker Investigator as a role. It would require more skill to play the Investigator.

What I personally find a bit dissapointing is that most people usually think only of Ranked gamemodes these days, considering suggestions. For example, in Ranked Gamemode, having Investigator is mainly about role confirmation. But you could hardly expect Investigator to confirm roles in a Classic mode for noobs, or Custom, where the gameplay is more leasure.
Which is why I personally dont want to turn Investigator into role-confirmation specialist.



My question then is - Mr. Kiosen, what is your final goal? Nerf, or Buff Investigator? Turn it more into role-confirmation specialist, or give evil Roles stronger role-claims to claim if Investigator calls them out? Or something else? Obviously the ultimate goal is to balance out the investigation tags - but that can be done in several ways, considering what the goal is supposed to be.
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FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby deathsembrace » Tue May 26, 2015 2:50 pm

with the current investigator result of spy or bmer you can actually come up with a foolproof stradegy

Tell all mafia members that if you are ever accused have them whisper a confimed townie a code word we agreed on in night chat when you have to spy test

As long as only mafia do it your safe
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Tue May 26, 2015 3:10 pm

Well my goal is obviously to have some form of uncertainty(With the exception of Jailor/Spy, since that's just sooooo hard to actually group something with, though I tried something in the spoiler at the end of the OP) for the Investigator instead of having an evil role grouped with one instant-confirm role(Spy/Blackmailer and Mayor/Godfather), so my stance is to nerf the Investigator. I did also say that I wanted to preserve the Classic feel because of how people are looking at this mainly in a "Ranked perspective", so I tried to be as wary of the changes I made as much as I could in order to prevent things such as suspicion on the Medium for possibly being a Godfather in Classic Mode. As for the second(or third, depending on how you look at it) bolded question, I honestly have no clue. I just wanted to make the Investigator more of a "hints guy" that a person can possibly be instead of having a "Spy/Blackmailer situation" where the Investigator knows that someone is confirmed good or evil.

@deathsembrance, this quote is my response to someone who said that strategy:
Kiyosen wrote:I've countered this before as a Town role by doing another Spy Test so I can confirm the "Spy" for myself...found the rest of the Mafia that way... :/



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby kookeekwisp » Tue May 26, 2015 3:29 pm

You do realise that janitors KNOW what the cleaned roles are, right?
Favorite roles: Framer Survivor Trapper VampireHunter Consigliere Mafioso Escort Lookout Mayor Arsonist Disguiser Veteran Bodyguard Plaguebearer Medusa Blackmailer Executioner Doctor Crusader Vigilante Vampire PotionMaster Poisoner Transporter Jester Jailor Consort Ambusher Werewolf SerialKiller Hypnotist CovenLeader Pirate Godfather Sheriff Forger ??? Retributionist Amnesiac Investigator Necromancer Spy GuardianAngel Tracker Psychic HexMaster.

Kirize wrote:
kookeekwisp wrote:Dont single out Arso cause it kills slower!
I didnt know you could contradict yourself in one sentence
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Kiyosen » Tue May 26, 2015 3:31 pm

kookeekwisp wrote:You do realise that janitors KNOW what the cleaned roles are, right?

Why yes, I do. Please actually continue on in your post about what you don't like about this. Don't just wait until I reply back. :/



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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Mroz4k » Tue May 26, 2015 5:29 pm

deathsembrace wrote:with the current investigator result of spy or bmer you can actually come up with a foolproof stradegy

Tell all mafia members that if you are ever accused have them whisper a confimed townie a code word we agreed on in night chat when you have to spy test

As long as only mafia do it your safe


Like Kiosen said, all it takes is one thinking Town member who does the test on their own - and voala! - the strategy is busted and at least one more Mafia member is revealed as well. On top of that if there is an actual Spy as well, he will know this for sure as he would also hear the Mafia making this plan in the night.

Kiyosen wrote:Well my goal is obviously to have some form of uncertainty(With the exception of Jailor/Spy, since that's just sooooo hard to actually group something with)

Its actually not that hard - you dont even have to put Spy and Blackmailer apart, but what you really need to do then is to add another Town role into the mix, which allows the Blackmailer (or any evil role that you pair it with) a chance to claim different Town role other then Spy, as Spy is easily confirmable. Also, due to fact that most games have on average only two Investigatives, it would be best if the role that you added to the mix was not Investigative - because the Investigator who does these investigations is already occupying one of the Investigative spots).
For example, I had it as Spy, Lookout, Blackmailer (and it would be average because its not optimal, since Lookout is Investigative too. There is definitedly better ways to do it, for sure.)

If your goal is to make Investigator more doubtful in his results, then I dont really reccomend starting off Elastoid´s list as he suggested he would wish the Investigator to be more of a "confirmation" role.
I´d reccomend my suggestion from a while back for inspiration - as my goal was technically the same:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=21011

(I expect to make new one based on this old one, in a new thread because it was very impractically created. Personally I prefer the Optional change 3.)
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FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: Investigator's Results Revamp

Postby Gobln » Tue May 26, 2015 5:33 pm

I like Elastoids.
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