New Investigation Results

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New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Mon May 18, 2015 12:04 am

This needs to be fixed. I know two others have made posts like this(Elastoid and benjiboo267) and thats great. This is mine. I know it isn't easy taking the time to come up with your own results. I also know it isn't easy to come up with said results, I don't expect many to do it. But it needs to be done, all I ask is that those who disagree read all the way through. At least the end, which includes how I think the investigator should be as a whole. Also I am far from concerned about thematic results, why should balance have to be drawn back for the sake of appearance. Thats like saying, oh that tank looks to bulky. Lets get rid of the top and make it a convertible What?!
Anyway, if you want to share your thematic results please do. I care more about making the game better at the present time.

First my review of the current investigation results
Bodyguard, Jailor, Lookout
Instantly confirms both the bodyguard and the lookout, two useful roles that cannot easily confirm themselves. Broken 3/10

Transporter or Arsonist
Transporter is one of the easiest roles to confirm, aside from the instant confirms. Pairing it with the Arsonist means the investigator has complete power over the arsonist. Without having to test night immunity, check the role list, scum tell, or dare I say it take a chance. 4/10

Doctor or Serial Killer
Not a terrible pairing at all, leaves a good amount of uncertainty in the results. 8/10

Consort or Escort
Two roles that function exactly the same, makes sense that the easiest claim for consort should match up with its investigation results. 9/10

Investigator or Consigliere
Two roles that function almost exactly the same, with a little knowledge and some skill the consigliere's best claim is investigator. I see no reason its investigation results shouldn't match up. 9/10
Also this gives the sheriff what I see as one of its most useful functions

Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10

Sheriff, Retributionist,Executioner
This setup does allow the executioner to claim sheriff. Also executioner is the most town aligned neutral evil role. Witch clearly is more mafia aligned, and jester is most likely bad news for a townie. Yes executioner sacrifices a town member, but town has the majority anyway. This result isn't bad, but it isn't great. 5/10

Spy or Blackmailer
Oh look, this is nothing like that other absolutely broken result. Oh wait, its even worse. Godfather can at least claim they don't want to reveal so they can be healed. No way can a blackmailer try that. Its spy test, your dead. Broken 1/10

Veteran, Vigilante, Mafioso
So this setup is neither here nor there, honestly I would have a harder time trying to split this up. It isn't a complete condemnation for the Mafioso, but its pretty bad. On the other hand, veteran and vigilante have to kill to confirm. Which often times can be a town member. Worth fixing, but I'm not taking a stab at it yet. 6/10

Disguiser or Jester
This is not good, not bad. I understand it, ill say that much. Give the jester the weakest mafia member, but I don't think the devs knew how weak it would be considered. At this point hanging a jester because they might be a disguiser is a no go. But the jester doesn't need a boost, best plan for jester is to avoid investigators. Honestly disguiser will become more valuable with the forger, which will help jesters. Which will in turn cause this result to be more useful. 6/10

Janitor or Medium
Nope nope nope. They took one of the weakest town and paired it with the third or fourth best mafia. This is off balance by a mile. 4/10

Framer or Forger
Well, forger isn't out yet. So can't really change the results. But if we think of the function of the framer, pairing it with other non mafia roles would actually weaken its ability. So this is relatively fine 8/10

Amnesiac
Same as the above, pairing it with anything doesn't do much. Especially since it will just change results when it picks a role.

Survivor, Werewolf, Witch
Poor poor survivor, but I agree that survivor shouldn't be given an easy win. But lets focus on the real issue here. The werewolf absolutely does not need to get destroyed by an investigator. As is, its a hard role. Lets name some Neutral killings, Serial killer, not unique. Arsonist, not unique. Werewolf, unique. Not much of an indicator at first glance, but what it does indicate is the werewolf does not work with others. Also werewolf is vulnerable half the entire game, Werewolf needs to have one of the strongest investigation results in accordance with how the role is setup. Also witch being there hurts the werewolf and the survivor. Survivor is not a claim for witch. 0/10

Now for my results, first ill say I worked with Elastoid a small amount on his. Most of it was his, and mine wouldn't be what it is without his. Mainly the Jailor Mayor Spy.

Results I've kept from the game (Why I've explained above)
Consort or Escort
Investigator or Consigliere
Veteran, Vigilante, Mafioso
Framer or Forger
Amnesiac

Results I've kept from Elastoid's
Jailor, Mayor, Spy
So as Elastoid said. Each of these is an instant confirm, and as such is a death penalty for any non town role paired with them. You may be thinking, but the jailor isn't any more confirmable than the veteran of the vigilante(except the vigilante risks dying of guilt, and the veteran has to have someone visit them). Yes the jailor can confirm through a death note, but the jailor can also simply say when on the stand "Listen, I'm Jailor" then any smart town would say "Sure, if your lying the real jailor can kill you tonight" then the next day, boom town leader. Due to this the only way to negate them is to put them together. This will leave the investigator an easy find on a townie, but they can just confirm anyway. 10/10 because its the only way unless these become non instant confirm.

Now for my changes
Medium, Godfather, Survivor
Now, I've said survivor shouldn't be given an easy win. And medium has an ability from the grave, this version of the results will still leave the godfather in an incredibly weak position. But its still a multitude stronger than the Mayor/Godfather. This will ease pressure off of the survivor and the godfather. But not by to much.
Medium is pretty much the weakest town, its going to get lynched anywhere you put it. 7/10

Lookout, Janitor, Executioner
What we have here is a few layers. To start the Executioner keeps its investigative cover, if it was Sk/Doctor/Exe. What would he say? "I'm a doctor that guys mafia" makes sense. But with this result it actually increases the executioners claim. Claiming sheriff is unreliable, you can be fooled by an arsonist godfather or framer. But a lookout, all you have to do is be lucky and spot a killer. Oh and aside from that executioner doesn't really effect investigation results, lets face it. Who actively lynches an executioner when there are killers about.
Now the janitor, what the janitor had before was the weakest town claim. Now it has a useful, hard to confirm town to claim. 8/10

Retributionist,Disguiser, Jester
What I've done here, is honestly just get the retributionist out of the way. Its a powerful town member, that has a relatively easy way to confirm. As I've said the Disguiser/Jester isn't that bad, this isn't much better i know. But it does ease balancing more important results. 6/10

Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch
You may be thinking, oh he just added the witch. Lame. And you'd be right. As I've said above i did rate the Doctor/Serial killer a 8/10. With this the doctor (A town protective, aka very useful) will have more pressure applied. The serial killer will also have more pressure applied. The serial killer is generally viewed as the most successful neutral killing. I believe adding the witch will apply the right kind of pressure, making the serial killer require more skill. (When was the last serial killer guide posted). This will also make things better for the witch, but not to much. I'll be fair and drop it to 7/10

Sheriff, Transport, Arsonist
Yes I stuck the sheriff in with the arsonist and transporter. Transporter/Arsonist is an easy death sentence, but arsonist is a powerful role when used well. Giving it the sheriff claim will ease over half of the pressure from investigation results. Sheriff is a useful role, but not so useful arsonists wont be hung. Honestly if arsonist had to good of a claim it could become quite powerful. 6/10

And now my masterpiece
Bodyguard, Blackmailer, Werewolf
We have (according to me) the most vulnerable neutral killing, one of the most valuable town members(since a 1-1 trade off sucks for any non town), and one of the weaker mafia members. I'd like to view this from a few angles.
We have the Bodyguard/Werewolf, perhaps the best claim for the werewolf. Its hard to confirm, its a very valuable town, and its useful both early game and late game.
Now we have Bodyguard/Blackmailer, if it were just this I would say no way is town hangin a blackmailer risking a bodyguard. But that's where this comes together.
Bodyguard/Blackmailer/Werewolf, now the town has a 66% shot at taking out a directly town combative role. But, if they are wrong they lose a potential 100% chance to take out a killing role. And they lose that threat level that keeps killing roles at bay. A very powerful meta game element. This is easily by favorite result 9/10

Now you may be thinking, this really hurts the investigator. Yes, yes it does. Lets look at the other investigative roles shall we.

We have the sheriff, which can be fooled by the head of the mafia the arsonist and a framer. As a result it is viewed as week, but it can find 1/3 of the neutral killings instantly. And 7/8ths of the mafia. But it is limited in that it wastes time on neutral evil,benign, and town members

We have the spy(Dont get me started) it can see who the mafia visits. Also whispers, also mafia night chat (Still very against this...). But what this results in is mafia dont whisper during the day and mafia don't talk at night.

Lets focus in the other part for this. Seeing who they visit. Like a finely honed lookout, that wears sunglasses at night. If the target dies, well saw that coming. But if they don't, if they claim roleblock(spy knows consort), if they don't say anything(spy knows blackmailer). If they seen unchanged (spy knows consigliere). What this results in is letting the spy piece together(this is the important part) with Skill what the mafia is working with.

The lookout has to decide where to look. Starting off it has a 1/14-2/14 shot to see a death. Night 4 1/8-2/8 shot. Still not great, but with Skill it can determine who to watch.

The investigator gets results Every Single Night, meaning no matter where it looks it will see something. So, given this fact. What is sees has to be the part that requires Skill. Not oh hey there is the blackmailer/spy better spy test him tomorrow.
Instead its hmmmm(Notice the thinking!) they could be the blackmailer, or maybe the werewolf. Glad he didn't stay home, (Here's another cool part) ill watch him tomorrow and see how he acts. Like A Good Freaking Player...
Thank you that is all for now.
Last edited by Bloodringe on Mon May 18, 2015 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Magnasword2 » Mon May 18, 2015 6:04 am

See the problem I have with this is on an understanding basis. In real life I wouldn't look at a werewolf (Introverted, Isolated and private) and say OH THATS OBVIOUSLY A BODYGUARD.

I also find very little way for you to mistake a Werewolf for a blackmailer.

I also find it very strange a sheriff can smell of gas unless he's been at the beans again XD

The Jailor, Mayor spy thing okay yes i can agree with that it's good it means everything easily confirmed can be easily confirmed.

I think you're being very hard on the amnesiac here also. Getting a confirmed amnesiac means you can bully the amnesiac into choosing a town role very easily and that sucks if the amne wishes to join the mafia and such.

My problem really is that newer players are going to get confused as there's nothing linking the investigations at that point and it makes it difficult to find a way to remember them all thus driving away players who quite frankly already believe the game to be quite complicated.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Gobln » Mon May 18, 2015 6:14 am

Magnasword2 wrote:See the problem I have with this is on an understanding basis. In real life I wouldn't look at a werewolf (Introverted, Isolated and private) and say OH THATS OBVIOUSLY A BODYGUARD.

I also find very little way for you to mistake a Werewolf for a blackmailer.

I also find it very strange a sheriff can smell of gas unless he's been at the beans again XD

The Jailor, Mayor spy thing okay yes i can agree with that it's good it means everything easily confirmed can be easily confirmed.

I think you're being very hard on the amnesiac here also. Getting a confirmed amnesiac means you can bully the amnesiac into choosing a town role very easily and that sucks if the amne wishes to join the mafia and such.

My problem really is that newer players are going to get confused as there's nothing linking the investigations at that point and it makes it difficult to find a way to remember them all thus driving away players who quite frankly already believe the game to be quite complicated.

Balance > Lore for new players.
Should be obvious.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Mroz4k » Mon May 18, 2015 7:25 am

Gobln wrote:Balance > Lore for new players.
Should be obvious.


Not neccesarily. The game looses authenticity if you remove the lore. Balance and lore are both important.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Mon May 18, 2015 7:47 am

Like the authenticity created by the drop pod house?
I get it, really. If we think about a change, any change, in investigator results. It will jar people, any change.
As much as theme matters I could just say. Your target is a powerful member of their team, or something like that.
I'm all for theme, really love the floating fairies, the death horses, the YouTube present In Salem(I know its a thank you thing from the devs), and I really love watching them get smote by lighting on a clear sky day.
What I dont like is watching the investigator saunter along game after game. Godfather/Mayor is like saying, oh what if the jailor instant executes the janitor, cause dead bodies...not the point. Then spy/blackmailer. Welp, jailor gets to auto execute consigliere now.

Honestly what really needs to happen is to fix everything I listed as broken. But changing those one at a time will off put the rest of the results. Which is the main reason I made the whole thing. Other reasons to, like arsonist.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Gobln » Mon May 18, 2015 8:06 am

Mroz4k wrote:
Gobln wrote:Balance > Lore for new players.
Should be obvious.


Not neccesarily. The game looses authenticity if you remove the lore. Balance and roles are both important.

Both are important, sure, but if the devs have to choose.
Balance >>>>>>> Lore
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby transportowiec96 » Mon May 18, 2015 8:55 am

In my opinion, these are pretty well thought new investigator results.
There were many of them, very similiar but these are the best for me now.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Mon May 18, 2015 6:15 pm

Themes

The people want themes the people get themes.
Here are three possible results for each set. This is also to show anything can be connected.
I'd love some feedback, both on these themes and the actual results.
I'm cutting out the, "They must be blank blank or blank" that part is the same for each.
Bodyguard, Blackmailer, Werewolf
"Your target has a darker side to them."
Bodyguard is technically a murderer. Blackmailer likes to keep others dirty laundry. And werewolf seems like a normal human on non full moon nights.

My favorite
"Your target creates fear in others."
Bodyguard, has a strong presence. Aka meta threat. Blackmailer blackmails which is fear. Werewolf is again intimidating, meta threat, on full moon nights.

"Your target works in the shadows."
Bodyguard, imagine the secret service. Blackmailer I always think of in a dimly lit room with their files. Werewolf, only uses moon light.

Medium, Godfather, Survivor
"Your target has issues gaining the town's trust."
Medium is a hard claim, I'm pretty sure I read the godfather ran for mayor in the past. Survivor is a wild card.

"Your target tends to act passively at night"
Medium just chats. Godfather commands other mafia. Survivor just uses vests.

"Your target treasures the dead"
Medium, easy to see they talk with the dead. Survivor's vests are their dead brothers'. Godfather, each dead townie is one step closer to victory/Mafia that sacrifice themselves (Cut me a break here) hold a high spot in the godfather's eyes.

Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch
My favorite
"Your target works behind the scenes"
Typically doctors lay low. Serial killer hides their actions from the town. (Dont misunderstand, John proctor never says"yeah I killed that guy with my knife"). And witch controls others to do their work, effectively leaving them out of the spotlight.

"Your target works with knives"
I was going to say sharp instruments but that seemed excessive. Doctor, surgery. Serial killer, butchery. Witch, Blood magic? A bit dark but believable.

"Your target has survived encounters with those that sought to bring them harm"
Wording may be a bit off. But. Doctor, according to the wiki backstory(you'll find a good amount of where I got my results is here), they did two tours at war. Serial killer, according to the wiki back story, was locked in a penitentiary and sentenced to death. Meaning having gone through the legal system. Which includes a judge and a prosecutor. In the serial killers eyes they sought to bring him harm. Witch, according to the wiki back story, was run out of town. Thus town wanted to bring harm.

Retributionist, Disguiser, Jester
"Your target's work relies on death."
Retributionist, obvious. Disguiser, can't disguise without a dead person. Jester, has to die to win/Can't haunt without dying.

"Your target's actions actions are very surprising."
Retributionist often isn't know to exist until they revive someone. Disguiser (Last will meta not included) catches the town completely off guard. Jester, no one knows its a jester (Except consig) until the moment its hung.

My favorite, so much my favorite
"Your target has trouble coming to grips with reality."
Retributionist brings back someone from the dead, easily seen as a violation of realities laws. They died, that's the reality of the situation, but the retributionist disagrees. Disguiser, constantly changes identities. From a 25 year old teacher, to an old lady, to a burly cop. I think it wouldn't be hard to assume they developed multiple personality disorder from this. And as such, can't face the reality of who they are. Jester, according to the back story, the jester suffers from paranoid schizophrenia, hallucinations, and delusions. Clearly not a person grounded in reality.

Lookout, Janitor, Executioner
"Your target is dedicated to their work."
Lookout stays up all hours of the night. Janitor, according to the back story, takes their work very seriously. Executioner has a long ingrained personal grudge with their target

"Your target has a dark history." (bear with me)
Lookout, according to the back-story, has a murderous sister (named Mary for some reason.). I think something went wrong in their childhood. Janitor was once a coroner, but got fired because of their connection to the criminal underground. (Back story)
Executioner has a long ingrained blood feud. And seethes with rage, sounds like something pretty dark occurred between them to me. (Seething taken straight from the wiki)

"Your target's works invades others personal lives."
Lookout, peeping tom. Easily sees everything that occurs late night at their target's house. Janitor removes all evidence of their targets personal lives(role). And destroys their last will and testament. Executioner does everything they can to ruin their targets personal life. Also their life in general.

Sheriff, Transporter, Arsonist
"Your target is an expert at their trade."
Sheriff can tell a lawbreaker, other than the godfather and arsonist, in a single glance. Transporter, I dont see any other Salem residents cabbing. Arsonist, manages to only douse their target. Accurate work I'd say.

"Your target uses an element of force in their work."
Sheriff is known to interrogate. Transporter forces their targets into the cab. Arsonist overpowers people well enough to have night immunity, and successfully douse people

My favorite
"Your target doesn't let emotion interfere with their work."
Sheriff sees lawbreakers as lawbreakers, no exceptions. Transporter doesn't slow down no matter who is in their cab. Arsonist has a broken psyche and just burns things. No hard feelings.

Ta da, again I'm open to suggestions. Also I'd like to know which of mine seems best to the community.
Last edited by Bloodringe on Tue May 19, 2015 9:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Waffleme3 » Mon May 18, 2015 6:41 pm

what you said up there about medium not being important, medium can be a gaint disadvantage for mafia late game since they can say all the imformation from the dead
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Mon May 18, 2015 6:44 pm

waffleme3 wrote:what you said up there about medium not being important, medium can be a gaint disadvantage for mafia late game since they can say all the imformation from the dead

Come on, medium is no more powerful then everyone keeping a good will. Since all last wills can be viewed at any time.
Well, thats not exactly true medium is a vote.
I said medium is the weakest town, not unimportant. Just least important scaling wise.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Waffleme3 » Mon May 18, 2015 6:45 pm

Bloodringe wrote:
waffleme3 wrote:what you said up there about medium not being important, medium can be a gaint disadvantage for mafia late game since they can say all the imformation from the dead

Come on, medium is no more powerful then everyone keeping a good will. Since all last wills can be viewed at any time.
Well, thats not exactly true medium is a vote.
I said medium is the weakest town, not unimportant. Just least important scaling wise.

meh it is very weak but if invest roles die they cant tell the town what that resualt was and spys can get leads all in all its underpowered but powerful (you get what im saying)
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby To101m » Mon May 18, 2015 7:37 pm

/SUPPORT

Holy cow, this needs implementation ASAP

I don't care for 'the lore', this is something that needs to be changed right away!

As GobIn says
Balance > Lore
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Tue May 19, 2015 8:57 am

To101m wrote:/SUPPORT

Holy cow, this needs implementation ASAP

I don't care for 'the lore', this is something that needs to be changed right away!

As GobIn says
Balance > Lore

This,more of this. Or more hate. Just more.


As for the lore, I made some thematic results. Three of each to be exact, a fair amount to choose from.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby ShadeSeraph » Tue May 19, 2015 9:02 am

'The Sheriff is a master of his trade, determining if a person is behaving suspiciously with only a single glance.'

(Unless they're a Godfather, Arsonist, Jester, Executioner, Witch, or Werewolf.)
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Tue May 19, 2015 9:04 am

ShadeSeraph wrote:"The Sheriff is a master of his trade, determining if a person is behaving suspiciously with only a single glance."

(Unless they're a Godfather, Arsonist, Jester, Executioner, Witch, or Werewolf.)

Exactly ;)
Not my favorite among the Sheriff/Transporter/Arsonist thematic results. But the wiki said so, and I wanted variety to choose from.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Abinmorth » Thu May 21, 2015 4:52 am

Bloodringe wrote:Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10


i disagree here.
Godfather has some advantages over other mafia:
he is night immune and looking not suspicious to the Sheriff, so I think it is good if at least the Invest can figure him out very easily.

Mayor is a very strong town role, especially if they survive till late game (votes have more power, its easier to keep track of roles with lesser people),
so its a good thing that he can be forced to reveal by invests or consigs.

but i do agree that most of the other pairings you listed are badly balanced.

also it is even worse in the current ranked role list:
- there can only be one Random Mafia (unless Any)
- Often town knows the role of random mafia, once the random mafia uses their ability. e.g Janitor or Blackmailer.
- lets say the invest finds an Invest/Consig after Janitor cleaned somebody.
- while the chance that the Any role is a mafia is 8/30 = 26% - the chance that the Any is a Consigliere is 1/30 = 3%
- this means 97% chance that the Invest/Consig check is another Investigator. Time to compare results. ;)
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Town (10/19): Bodyguard, Doctor, Escort, Investigator, Jailor, Lookout, Sheriff, Spy, Veteran, Vigilante
Mafia (3/11): Consigliere, Godfather, Mafioso
Neutral (1/13)ː Survivor
Coven (0/6): None yet
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Mroz4k » Thu May 21, 2015 6:42 am

Jailor, Mayor, Spy - terrible. Why? Because you get a confirmed, extremely powerful Town. Why would you even have confirmed Town member through Investigation this way? Why? When Jailor and Spy can both be used in an investigation tag with something evil, and this gives the evil role advantage because Investigator would be unwilling to share that information, out of a fear of revealing a potential Jailor?
Mayor + Spy is a bit better, but still it is a bit bad. What I would do is separate those two and slaped each one of those roles to a different tag, so yea, sure, they can confirm themselves easily... but just adding them to tag that is unconfirmable is good enough solution.
Because regardless of their tag, they can reveal themselves.
On top of that, this would tell Investigator who the Jailor is for 100% - if Mayor already revealed, and Spy got spy-checked, then it only can be the Jailor (or second Spy, but in 90% it would be Jailor because Investigator and Spy were two Town investigative).
If I should rate it, I´d give it 2/10 = very broken.

Medium, Godfather, Survivor - First of all, your two sentences in there contradict each other. "This will ease off pressure from Godfather and Survivor" and "Medium is going to get lynched anywhere you put it"
No, it will not ease off pressure from GF or Survivor, it will only add pressure on Medium. In fact, so much I would probably lie about my Role to a confirmed Town member as a Medium just so I dont get lynched. You said it yourself - Medium can be easily faked by anyone who is watching the game. So, as a proof, it sucks equally bad as Mayor or Godfather. Actually, its even worse because you need to lie about your own role to your own teammates if you want to survive.
7/10? You are kidding... 3/10 at most.

Regardless what you add to Godfather, unless its a Jailor and Bodyguard, GF will always be hung. And anything you put together with it.
Besides, Godfather is supposed to be alergic to Investigator. Investigator is the counter role to GF, when Sheriff and other investigatives are kind of lost there (Spy can be partially usefull against GF).

Retributionist, Disguiser and Jester - thats a bit weak claim. It helps only a bit by adding a Town Unique role that will most likely be just asked to ressurect someone for proof, or if they already die, and there cant be another one, it will immidiatedly work the same way.
If Vanilla version for Disguiser was 5/10, this would be 6/10 at most.

Sheriff, Transporter, Arsonist is alright.
Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch - its meh, but its better then the current Witch one.
Lookout, Janitor, Executioner is alright.

Overall, I believe that your colab with Elastoid was better then this (but still lacked a lot of balance).

Investigator is pretty strong Investigative role. If it is supposed to be a bit weaker, then ideally, all the evil and all the good roles should be mixed together, so you have one good role, one bad role, and one neutral or good Unique role.

What I would see as good balance:
Survivor gets a pretty hard-to-defend claim (such as Mayor or GF). This means there is no more revealing I´m Survivor of the start, hoping to not be lynched by the Town... - because there is literally no way to confirm if its Survivor, or Godfather.
All Neutral Killing roles (especially Arsonist and Werewolf) should get a good Town role to claim + weak Town role or easily confirmable, or even Unique Town role.
All Mafia roles (except for Framer or Forger, as those have a chance of being a good roles that were framed) should have an equally strong Town counterrole to claim.
Transporter should stay on his own, as that role itself is a big investigation influence.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Bloodringe » Thu May 21, 2015 7:32 am

Abinmorth wrote:
Bloodringe wrote:Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10


i disagree here.
Godfather has some advantages over other mafia:
he is night immune and looking not suspicious to the Sheriff, so I think it is good if at least the Invest can figure him out very easily.

Mayor is a very strong town role, especially if they survive till late game (votes have more power, its easier to keep track of roles with lesser people),
so its a good thing that he can be forced to reveal by invests or consigs.

but i do agree that most of the other pairings you listed are badly balanced.

also it is even worse in the current ranked role list:
- there can only be one Random Mafia (unless Any)
- Often town knows the role of random mafia, once the random mafia uses their ability. e.g Janitor or Blackmailer.
- lets say the invest finds an Invest/Consig after Janitor cleaned somebody.
- while the chance that the Any role is a mafia is 8/30 = 26% - the chance that the Any is a Consigliere is 1/30 = 3%
- this means 97% chance that the Invest/Consig check is another Investigator. Time to compare results. ;)

I agree godfather is top dog. Which is why I put it with the medium and survivor(Mro, this is at you to) making it still difficult for survivor. And not giving the godfather a strong claim.

Mroz4k wrote:Jailor, Mayor, Spy - terrible. Why? Because you get a confirmed, extremely powerful Town. Why would you even have confirmed Town member through Investigation this way? Why? When Jailor and Spy can both be used in an investigation tag with something evil, and this gives the evil role advantage because Investigator would be unwilling to share that information, out of a fear of revealing a potential Jailor?
Mayor + Spy is a bit better, but still it is a bit bad. What I would do is separate those two and slaped each one of those roles to a different tag, so yea, sure, they can confirm themselves easily... but just adding them to tag that is unconfirmable is good enough solution.
Because regardless of their tag, they can reveal themselves.
On top of that, this would tell Investigator who the Jailor is for 100% - if Mayor already revealed, and Spy got spy-checked, then it only can be the Jailor (or second Spy, but in 90% it would be Jailor because Investigator and Spy were two Town investigative).
If I should rate it, I´d give it 2/10 = very broken.

Mroz4k, I get your logic here. 2/10 seems pretty extreme. You question why I would have a Jailor confirmed through investigation results? I'd like to point out Bodyguard/Jailor/Lookout, clearly more helpful to town.
Just because you dont agree with it. Remember all of the factors when analyzing here. I'm sure that mine are better than the current, not to say they are the best they can be. But 2/10 seems needlessly low.
Mroz4k wrote:Medium, Godfather, Survivor - First of all, your two sentences in there contradict each other. "This will ease off pressure from Godfather and Survivor" and "Medium is going to get lynched anywhere you put it"
No, it will not ease off pressure from GF or Survivor, it will only add pressure on Medium. In fact, so much I would probably lie about my Role to a confirmed Town member as a Medium just so I dont get lynched. You said it yourself - Medium can be easily faked by anyone who is watching the game. So, as a proof, it sucks equally bad as Mayor or Godfather. Actually, its even worse because you need to lie about your own role to your own teammates if you want to survive.
7/10? You are kidding... 3/10 at most.

Regardless what you add to Godfather, unless its a Jailor and Bodyguard, GF will always be hung. And anything you put together with it.
Besides, Godfather is supposed to be alergic to Investigator. Investigator is the counter role to GF, when Sheriff and other investigatives are kind of lost there (Spy can be partially usefull against GF).

My sentences do not contradict, they say Exactly what I wanted to say. Previous pressure for godfather=Mayor, previous pressure for survivor=Werewolf&Witch. I'm well aware it should be weak to investigators, thus the weak claim. Intentional.
Why shouldn't 1 (your moaning here because 1 townie might have it hard) town member be forced to play more conservatively. Town of Salem is blood thirsty. I can easily see town members being afraid. Why not have (again just 1 role) that element to it.
Mroz4k wrote:Retributionist, Disguiser and Jester - thats a bit weak claim. It helps only a bit by adding a Town Unique role that will most likely be just asked to ressurect someone for proof, or if they already die, and there cant be another one, it will immidiatedly work the same way.

If Vanilla version for Disguiser was 5/10, this would be 6/10 at most.

Now your saying things I've already pointed out. Its a weak claim? Really??? I never new.
But seriously, I already said its a 6/10. Did you come here to reiterate things I've already said? Because I know the things I've said, I'm the one that said them.
Mroz4k wrote:Sheriff, Transporter, Arsonist is alright.
Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch - its meh, but its better then the current Witch one.
Lookout, Janitor, Executioner is alright.

^^^^^^
Clearly a non biased review, has nothing bad to say. Just says meh and alright, very helpful.
Mroz4k wrote:Overall, I believe that your colab with Elastoid was better then this (but still lacked a lot of balance).

Investigator is pretty strong Investigative role. If it is supposed to be a bit weaker, then ideally, all the evil and all the good roles should be mixed together, so you have one good role, one bad role, and one neutral or good Unique role.

What I would see as good balance:
Survivor gets a pretty hard-to-defend claim (such as Mayor or GF). This means there is no more revealing I´m Survivor of the start, hoping to not be lynched by the Town... - because there is literally no way to confirm if its Survivor, or Godfather.
All Neutral Killing roles (especially Arsonist and Werewolf) should get a good Town role to claim + weak Town role or easily confirmable, or even Unique Town role.
All Mafia roles (except for Framer or Forger, as those have a chance of being a good roles that were framed) should have an equally strong Town counterrole to claim.
Transporter should stay on his own, as that role itself is a big investigation influence.

There are 14 town 8 mafia and 8 neutral. 1 of each doesn't work mathematically.
Thank you for your feedback, I agree with a couple things you said. I witnessed Elastoid discuss with you your Investigation changes, what you said is needed at the end of this post is for the most part fair and a good idea. Oh wait, I've already done 75% of that. Survivor gets difficult claim, neutral killings get good claim, mafia get good claim.
Pro tips right there.
Anyway, your judgment was overly harsh and your appraising was dreadfully monotone.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Gobln » Thu May 21, 2015 7:34 am

Mroz4k wrote:Jailor, Mayor, Spy - terrible. Why? Because you get a confirmed, extremely powerful Town. Why would you even have confirmed Town member through Investigation this way? Why? When Jailor and Spy can both be used in an investigation tag with something evil, and this gives the evil role advantage because Investigator would be unwilling to share that information, out of a fear of revealing a potential Jailor?
Mayor + Spy is a bit better, but still it is a bit bad. What I would do is separate those two and slaped each one of those roles to a different tag, so yea, sure, they can confirm themselves easily... but just adding them to tag that is unconfirmable is good enough solution.
Because regardless of their tag, they can reveal themselves.
On top of that, this would tell Investigator who the Jailor is for 100% - if Mayor already revealed, and Spy got spy-checked, then it only can be the Jailor (or second Spy, but in 90% it would be Jailor because Investigator and Spy were two Town investigative).
If I should rate it, I´d give it 2/10 = very broken.

Medium, Godfather, Survivor - First of all, your two sentences in there contradict each other. "This will ease off pressure from Godfather and Survivor" and "Medium is going to get lynched anywhere you put it"
No, it will not ease off pressure from GF or Survivor, it will only add pressure on Medium. In fact, so much I would probably lie about my Role to a confirmed Town member as a Medium just so I dont get lynched. You said it yourself - Medium can be easily faked by anyone who is watching the game. So, as a proof, it sucks equally bad as Mayor or Godfather. Actually, its even worse because you need to lie about your own role to your own teammates if you want to survive.
7/10? You are kidding... 3/10 at most.

Regardless what you add to Godfather, unless its a Jailor and Bodyguard, GF will always be hung. And anything you put together with it.
Besides, Godfather is supposed to be alergic to Investigator. Investigator is the counter role to GF, when Sheriff and other investigatives are kind of lost there (Spy can be partially usefull against GF).

Retributionist, Disguiser and Jester - thats a bit weak claim. It helps only a bit by adding a Town Unique role that will most likely be just asked to ressurect someone for proof, or if they already die, and there cant be another one, it will immidiatedly work the same way.
If Vanilla version for Disguiser was 5/10, this would be 6/10 at most.

Sheriff, Transporter, Arsonist is alright.
Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch - its meh, but its better then the current Witch one.
Lookout, Janitor, Executioner is alright.

Overall, I believe that your colab with Elastoid was better then this (but still lacked a lot of balance).

Investigator is pretty strong Investigative role. If it is supposed to be a bit weaker, then ideally, all the evil and all the good roles should be mixed together, so you have one good role, one bad role, and one neutral or good Unique role.

What I would see as good balance:
Survivor gets a pretty hard-to-defend claim (such as Mayor or GF). This means there is no more revealing I´m Survivor of the start, hoping to not be lynched by the Town... - because there is literally no way to confirm if its Survivor, or Godfather.
All Neutral Killing roles (especially Arsonist and Werewolf) should get a good Town role to claim + weak Town role or easily confirmable, or even Unique Town role.
All Mafia roles (except for Framer or Forger, as those have a chance of being a good roles that were framed) should have an equally strong Town counterrole to claim.
Transporter should stay on his own, as that role itself is a big investigation influence.

i didnt read your whole post but, that underlined part.
That isnt bad for the survivor.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Mroz4k » Thu May 21, 2015 7:40 am

Really?

Mayor, Survivor or Godfather, for example?
You want to tell me that is not hard for Survivor? I´d say thats pretty hard for Survivor. Definitedly enough to make sure Survs dont just reveal right of the bat.

If you have Town Unique role (not the Jailor) + Survivor + powerful Evil role (Serial Killer, Janitor, Mafioso, Godfather, etc) it would be pretty difficult tag for Survivor.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby TheCheddarCheese » Thu May 21, 2015 1:56 pm

I think the cop being added with the transporter and arsonist is good.
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby anperm » Fri May 22, 2015 5:21 am

I like the idea on some of them but...Themes are the problem, so ill check the comment.

Your target works in the shadows."
Bodyguard, imagine the secret service. Blackmailer I always think of in a dimly lit room with their files. Werewolf, only uses moon light.


yes this one.

"Your target's works invades others personal lives."
Lookout, peeping tom. Easily sees everything that occurs late night at their target's house. Janitor removes all evidence of their targets personal lives(role). And destroys their last will and testament. Executioner does everything they can to ruin their targets personal life. Also their life in general.


I support that one also.




"Your target doesn't let emotion interfere with their work."
Sheriff sees lawbreakers as lawbreakers, no exceptions. Transporter doesn't slow down no matter who is in their cab. Arsonist has a broken psyche and just burns things. No hard feelings.



and this.



I dont like the GF one because survivor's there ..
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby EdmundMcGaben » Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:33 am

Well you should also list the words an investigator will get. (E.g works with private information.)
Bloodringe wrote:Jailor, Mayor, Spy
Your target has stayed hidden for the good of the town.
Jailor is anonymous, you dont know who the mayor is and also spy eavesdrops even before anyone knows.
OR
Your target has the most power.
Jailor has the fifth freedom given by the mayor, mayor is the leader and.... spy may be out of this list.

Medium, Godfather, Survivor
Your target has a long history of death.
Medium speaks with the dead people, GodFather is the head of the mafia, which kills people, and survivor comes from a war accoring to his lore.

Lookout, Janitor, Executioner
Your target makes sure to leave no clues behind.
Lookout watches his target without anyone noticing, janitor cleans the crime scene and executioner visits their target everyday, even without him and himself knowing.

Retributionist,Disguiser, Jester
Your target is most affiliated with dead bodies.
Retributionist revives people, disguiser steals dead peoples identities and jester wins by dying, AND he takes someone with him.

Doctor, Serial Killer, Witch
Your target is all by himself.
Doctor has knives stabbed in his walls, practicing medicine everyday, serial killer is a lonely killer, and witch is just a basic loner.

Sheriff, Transport, Arsonist
*Couldnt Find*

Bodyguard, Blackmailer, Werewolf
Your targets presence scares others.
Bodyguard will kill people on sight, blackmailers presence scares because people cant be able to talk after they are introduced to him, and werewolf is just a huge beast itself.

DUNT H8, APPRITI8
Those are just guesses m8
Edit: Lol this almost has the same things your theme showed xD
Re-Edit: You forgot a theme for Mayor/Spy/Jailor :P

For me: The bests for every investigation result:
'Your target creates fear in others'
Best explanation for BodyGuard. GG
'Your target treasures the dead'
Yup. Its one of the best results for me.
'Your target works behind scenes'
Absolutely.
'Your targets actions are very surprising.'
Even though the reality result is good, resurrecting at least for a while can be done. Disguiser is thin as hell, so he can disguise easily and if needed, he can gain some fat. Jester is yeah, hes crazy and haunts people. Not realistic, not at all.
I liked your results for the LO, Jani and Exec, but i think mine is better:
'Your target makes sure to leave no trail behind.'
As i stated above, yeah. But you can make one of yours, of course.
'Your target doesnt lets emotion interfere their work.'
Yup. Thats good.
Last edited by EdmundMcGaben on Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby Juuhazan » Tue Jun 02, 2015 7:44 pm

Abinmorth wrote:
Bloodringe wrote:Godfather or Mayor
Absolutely broken. Not only does it instantly lynch the godfather, which draws away from the skill of the game, but it also forces Mayors to reveal. Which is an issue for mayors attempting to lay low. 2/10


i disagree here.
Godfather has some advantages over other mafia:
he is night immune and looking not suspicious to the Sheriff, so I think it is good if at least the Invest can figure him out very easily.

Mayor is a very strong town role, especially if they survive till late game (votes have more power, its easier to keep track of roles with lesser people),
so its a good thing that he can be forced to reveal by invests or consigs.

but i do agree that most of the other pairings you listed are badly balanced.

also it is even worse in the current ranked role list:
- there can only be one Random Mafia (unless Any)
- Often town knows the role of random mafia, once the random mafia uses their ability. e.g Janitor or Blackmailer.
- lets say the invest finds an Invest/Consig after Janitor cleaned somebody.
- while the chance that the Any role is a mafia is 8/30 = 26% - the chance that the Any is a Consigliere is 1/30 = 3%
- this means 97% chance that the Invest/Consig check is another Investigator. Time to compare results. ;)


what the hell? Did you miss the 'REVEAL OR DIE!' part of this result?
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Re: New Investigation Results

Postby EdmundMcGaben » Fri Jun 05, 2015 1:25 am

ShadeSeraph wrote:'The Sheriff is a master of his trade, determining if a person is behaving suspiciously with only a single glance.'

(Unless they're a Godfather, Arsonist, Jester, Executioner, Witch, or Werewolf.)

Jester and executioner doesnt really breaks the laws, witch and werewolf are victims of witchcraft :P


EDIT: Just thought of something. Amnesiac or Jester. Result:
'Your target suffers sickness.'
We all know jester suffers hallucinations and shit, and amnesiac had an accident.

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