New, balanced Investigator results

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New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Thu May 07, 2015 6:56 am

Right now, Investigator readouts are based on logic. It makes sense for Mayor and Godfather to be in the same category, because they're both leaders.

Unfortunately, Investigator readouts don't make any sense from a balance perspective. The objective of having uncertainty is completely defeated with several roles which are easily proven. Did your target come up as Spy/BM? If he doesn't pass a Spy check, he's mafia. Did your target come up as Mayor/GF? Reveal or die!

Meanwhile, two of the roles that are most commonly claimed by mafia -- Lookout and Bodyguard -- are instantly proven.

Since we're looking for ways to nerf town and make mafia stronger, let's look at re-grouping Investigator readouts based on balance, and then figure it out from there. Current readouts

Bodyguard, Jailor, or Lookout (Instantly proven town)
Transporter or Arsonist (Was anyone trans? No? LYNCH)
Doctor or Serial Killer (If no SK killings, instant innocence)
Consort or Escort (One of the better ones.)
Investigator or Consigliere (Also works)
Godfather or Mayor (REVEAL OR DIE)
Sheriff, Retributionist, or Executioner (Confirmed non-mafia)
Spy or Blackmailer (Pass spy check or DIE)
Veteran, Vigilante or Mafioso (Probably town. Still, one of the better ones)
Disguiser or Jester (Jailor, execute Elastoid, he's Jester or Disguiser)
Janitor or Medium (Safe until someone is cleaned. Still, almost balanced)
Framer (Die die die)
Amnesiac (Yay a new townie! Instant besties!)
Survivor, Werewolf or Witch (No one seems to like this, although it's arguably balanced)

So Bloodringe and I have been working on a better, more balanced readout list. These readouts make less logical sense, but are better for the game, in that it brings Investigator back to a scenario where, oftentimes, there's uncertainty in the readout.

Jailor, Spy, or the Mayor Your target uses secret information to help the town. They must be a Jailor, Spy or Mayor
The three most easily proven town roles are lumped together. The Investigator often won't investigate these folks, because they'll often already be revealed. If the Investigator DOES stumble across them, he does gain information, but information that was readily available to the town. At no point is anyone forced to make an impossible town claim as Mayor or Spy.
Consort or Escort
Your target is a manipulative beauty. They must be an Escort or Consort
This claim is often a bad one to make, as if you claim Escort but block proven townies no one believes you, but it's a very balanced readout. Combined with the Sheriff or Spy, it's going to get you killed, but two roles working together should be able to net one lynch. Being investigated early means you're forced to claim Escort and "play the part," and thus are unable to roleblock the Investigator who just outed you. There SHOULD be a downside to being investigated, so this grouping works pretty well.
Sheriff, Framer, or Executioner Your target accuses the Mafia. They must be a Sheriff, Framer, or Executioner.
Retributionist doesn't fit in this grouping. Framer does. The "Either a Framer, or framed" readout isn't empirically effective -- you're most of the time going to get lynched. This is especially true when the Investigator is looking at voting history and the like. This would arguably nerf Framer if the framed result could contain Sheriff, but that's only really the case if you frame a Sheriff. If you frame a Medium, and they claim Medium while coming up Sheriff, Framer or Executioner, they'll likely still be lynched.
Jester or Serial Killer Your target has gone insane. They must be a Jester or Serial Killer.
Buff to Jesters as it makes them a more dangerous possible role. It removes the Serial Killer's potential town claim, which arguably hurts them, but until the chance for a Jester is nullified, lynching a Serial Killer becomes very dangerous. It also invites them to behave more erratically in chat, as befits a Serial Killer. Someone who comes up as Doc or Serial Killer when there's an SK has very little chance, but if they come up as potentially a Jester, an opportunistic Serial Killer can potentially avoid a lynch. More, an opportunistic Serial Killer might help a Jester get lynched. Obviously, this role is still vulnerable to Jailor, but it was already vulnerable to being jailed, as he attacks the Jailor.
Bodyguard, Survivor or Godfather Your target is bulletproof. They must be a Bodyguard, Survivor, or the Godfather.
Survivor is rarely a good claim -- particularly in the current climate -- but if the claim ever becomes good, that strengthens the Godfather. As it stands now, the Bodyguard went from being instantly confirmed by Investigators to being incredibly suspicious. Everyone wanting a Bodyguard nerf should be excited about this. Godfather now has two potential claims that cannot be objectively disproven, so this is a significant buff to the role, but the role SHOULD be the strongest mafia role. He's still subject to roleblocks, role list math and the like.
Medium, Witch or Werewolf Your target draws power from the supernatural arts. They must be a Medium, Witch, or Werewolf.
Witch and Werewolf both hate being "loners" because it means they die if one of them is confirmed to exist. Instead, they get to potentially claim Medium. This isn't a huge buff to them, but it's a buff. Mediums had to contend with the Janitor accusation before, now with Witch and Werewolf. In games without a Janitor, this is a slight nerf. In games with a confirmed Janitor, this is a huge buff. And let's be honest -- this won't matter too much, as they'll die to Medium curse by Day 3.
Retributionist, Janitor or Amnesiac Your target spends time at the graveyard. They must be a Retributionist, Janitor, or Amnesiac.
Not only thematically linked, but the Janitor's using his ability helps him to make this claim. "All the bodies are cleaned" is a good defense for a Retributionist or Amnesiac claim.
Consigliere or Investigator Your target gathers information. They must be an Investigator or Consigliere.
Consiglieres often die claiming Investigator, but it's still likely their best claim.
Doctor or Arsonist Your target likes to make house calls. They must be a Doctor or Arsonist.
Again, grouping the Doctor with a Neutral Killing that, if not present, instantly proves the Doctor. This is not a nerf to Doctor, but it IS a buff to Arsonists. Rather than having to claim a provable role, they can claim one of the quiet ones. But yeah, this one is not thematically linked at ALL. The only reason they make sense together is from a balance perspective.
Lookout, Blackmailer, or Disguiser Your target meticulously focuses on their work. They must be a Lookout, Blackmailer, or Disguiser.
The first of the ones that are NOT AT ALL thematically linked. Bloodringe came up with most of the readouts, and I like this as much as anything I could come up with. Balance-wise, though, this makes sense. Lookout is a great role to claim as mafia, and this encourages it. It's a nerf to Lookout, but really, Lookout and Bodyguard didn't deserve being insta-proven by Investigator. From a balance perspective, this lets Disguiser and Blackmailer claim something that's difficult to disprove, although not impossible. Mayor saying "Watch me tonight" can still weed them out.
Transporter or Veteran Your target's actions can backfire on the town. They must be a Transporter or Veteran.
Investigating a Veteran is dangerous. Investigating a Transporter is unreliable. This readout groups the other two most commonly-proven town, but also puts them in a situation where the Investigator often won't live to be certain of their role.
Vigilante or Mafioso Your target owns weapons. They must be a Vigilante or Mafioso
Removing Veteran from this list doesn't do much. It slightly nerfs the Mafiosos that like to claim Veteran, but not a whole lot. They have an excuse -- "If I admitted Vigilante I would have been controlled by Witch, and it's not like I can random shoot to prove." They can even offer to shoot Survivor to prove, and then Survivor can lie to back them up. All of this is to say that the grouping was already quite balanced.

This is my (and Bloodringe's) suggestion. If someone has a better one, I'm open to it, but I think this is the most balanced list of readouts discussed at present.
Last edited by Elastoid on Thu May 07, 2015 8:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Mroz4k » Thu May 07, 2015 7:21 am

I agree with you that there is a need for Investigation tags overhaul.

Not this one, though. I mean, you have some pretty interesting suggestions, but just about half of these would have serious balancement results to certain roles.

For example, these ones:
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - awful. Everyone who would ever come up with this and there was a Werewolf in-game would be instantly lynched. Medium is not worth protecting over a possible Werewolf.
Not saying that the current WW tag is much better - in fact, its pretty much the same.
Lookout, Blackmailer, or Disguiser - again, 33% Town role, 66% Mafia role. Instantly lynched, no other questions asked.

Jailor, Spy, or the Mayor - your own argument was that Protector is awful, because its easily confirmed Town role, and a good one. Yet now you did the very same thing right here.

On top of that, many of the ´´lore´´ explanations dont make any sense - Mayor uses secret information? Amnesiac spends all the time on the graveyard?(I know the wiki says this as a lore but that was all made up by fans)
Framer accuses the Mafia? How does that even make sense in a sentence? Same with Executioner - since Executioner´s target is always Town.
Vet and Trans can backfire on the town? Thats not even legitimate ´´lead´´, thats just statement. Not to mention it would (again) be a confirmed Town role, not a good idea to have.

/Support for new investigation results.
No support for this particular ones.

On the contrary, props for the being bulletproof investigation tag, that one was very clever.
Or Arsonist making housecalls.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Gobln » Thu May 07, 2015 7:29 am

I dont like some of them. I think the Godfather bodyguard one is excellent though.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Thu May 07, 2015 8:03 am

Mroz4k wrote:I agree with you that there is a need for Investigation tags overhaul.

Not this one, though. I mean, you have some pretty interesting suggestions, but just about half of these would have serious balancement results to certain roles.

For example, these ones:
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - awful. Everyone who would ever come up with this and there was a Werewolf in-game would be instantly lynched. Medium is not worth protecting over a possible Werewolf.


Maybe. But then, if it's not a full moon that night, they could be given a chance. As it is, it's Medium or Janitor, and they're often lynched when there's a cleaned body. This is better for Witch and Werewolf, as it creates a POTENTIAL townie you're killing. It also gives potential creativity -- if faking "Medium" and you can come up with plausible things the dead may have told you, you could be saved.

Mroz4k wrote:Not saying that the current WW tag is much better - in fact, its pretty much the same.


It's slightly better.

Mroz4k wrote:Lookout, Blackmailer, or Disguiser - again, 33% Town role, 66% Mafia role. Instantly lynched, no other questions asked.


Not really. If no one has been blackmailed, it comes to probably Disguiser or Lookout, and then you play it by ear. If you're behind and NEED to lynch, maybe this is a good target, but most Investigators tend to go by more than just "66% of the results are mafia." Again, it's better for Disguiser (Jester or Disguiser is insta-kill), it's better for Blackmailer (Spy or Blackmailer is insta-kill), and it's better that Lookout isn't instantly proven.

Mroz4k wrote:Jailor, Spy, or the Mayor - your own argument was that Protector is awful, because its easily confirmed Town role, and a good one. Yet now you did the very same thing right here.


Yeah, Protector is awful because you take two roles that CAN'T prove themselves -- Lookout and Bodyguard -- and prove them. Spy and Mayor are instantly proven ANYWAY. No one wants to be "Spy or EVIL" or "Mayor or EVIL" because you can instantly prove that they are NOT Spy or Mayor. So you put them together. An Investigator who proves a Spy is a town role has not proven anything they didn't already know.

Mroz4k wrote:On top of that, many of the ´´lore´´ explanations dont make any sense - Mayor uses secret information? Amnesiac spends all the time on the graveyard?(I know the wiki says this as a lore but that was all made up by fans)
Framer accuses the Mafia? How does that even make sense in a sentence? Same with Executioner - since Executioner´s target is always Town.


They accuse that people ARE mafia. And anyway, YES, the lore is imperfect. I SAID to start that it would be. I said, "Let's balance around BALANCE, not lore." After all, the LORE that makes the most sense has Mayor with Godfather, and then it might as well just say "Your target is Godfather!" Because reveal or die.

Mroz4k wrote:Vet and Trans can backfire on the town? Thats not even legitimate ´´lead´´, thats just statement. Not to mention it would (again) be a confirmed Town role, not a good idea to have.


Do the math. There are GOING to be confirmed town roles, because most roles are town.

Mroz4k wrote:/Support for new investigation results.
No support for this particular ones.

On the contrary, props for the being bulletproof investigation tag, that one was very clever.
Or Arsonist making housecalls.


I invite you to put together your own list, that you think is better.

I thought this would be FUCKING EASY until I tried to do it, and discovered, "Shit, there are a lot of problems putting these together." Once you have your own list that has

1) No auto-confirmed towns
2) No auto-lynched mafia
3) Reasonable lore

then I will support it full-throatedly.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby KittenLicks » Thu May 07, 2015 8:29 am

Elastoid, I don't understand your Math behind the Framer thing at all.

The "Either a Framer, or framed" readout isn't effective, even in a vacuum. If the result occurs when there are 11 players, then there's only about a 10% chance that the result is wrong.


Imagine a role list of 9 vanilla townies, 1 Investigator and 1 Framer.
If you investigate someone at random and the Framer frames someone at random:

If the Framer frames the Investigator: (1/10)

1/10 chance the invest investigates the Framer.
0/10 chance the invest investigates the framed (they can't check themselves)

If the Framer frames anyone else (9/10)
1/10 chance the investigator investigates the Framer
1/10 chance the investigator investigates the framed.

Chance the invest chose the Framer = 1/10 + (1/10 * 1/10) = 11%
Chance the invest chose the framed person = 1/10 = 10%


Unless my math is wildly off, the odds are almost the same? There is an extra 1% chance that the person is likely the real framer, simply because there is a 10% chance you were the one framed and therefore your result is automatically accurate. So it's about 50/50 if you get the result that someone is a framer.

If you investigate someone a second time after finding they are a framer initially, the chance of the framer choosing them at random is then around 10%.

no I have nothing to say about the suggestions I just felt like doing math
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Thu May 07, 2015 8:43 am

KittenLicks wrote:Elastoid, I don't understand your Math behind the Framer thing at all.

The "Either a Framer, or framed" readout isn't effective, even in a vacuum. If the result occurs when there are 11 players, then there's only about a 10% chance that the result is wrong.


Imagine a role list of 9 vanilla townies, 1 Investigator and 1 Framer.
If you investigate someone at random and the Framer frames someone at random:

If the Framer frames the Investigator: (1/10)

1/10 chance the invest investigates the Framer.
0/10 chance the invest investigates the framed (they can't check themselves)

If the Framer frames anyone else (9/10)
1/10 chance the investigator investigates the Framer
1/10 chance the investigator investigates the framed.

Chance the invest chose the Framer = 1/10 + (1/10 * 1/10) = 11%
Chance the invest chose the framed person = 1/10 = 10%


Unless my math is wildly off, the odds are almost the same? There is an extra 1% chance that the person is likely the real framer, simply because there is a 10% chance you were the one framed and therefore your result is automatically accurate. So it's about 50/50 if you get the result that someone is a framer.

If you investigate someone a second time after finding they are a framer initially, the chance of the framer choosing them at random is then around 10%.

no I have nothing to say about the suggestions I just felt like doing math

Odds of Investigator finding Framer: 1/10
Odds of Investigator choosing a person, AND the Framer choosing the same person: ~1/100.

But now that I look at it, you're right -- I'm using the wrong mathematical approach. I'll edit.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Kiyosen » Thu May 07, 2015 8:50 am

Won't the "Jester/SK" result lead to the same thing as the "Jester/Disguiser" result except more incentive to execute Jesters?



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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby SarahSaurus » Thu May 07, 2015 8:53 am

I think this was a really interesting idea to try and help balance, by changing the invest results instead of just changing the Role List. I think there are a lot of good ideas here, but some of them don't quite make sense or could probably be tweaked. And I'm not trying to criticize, because I know this took a lot of effort and I do think it's pretty good- but I wonder if we could make it better? Idk.

-One thing that bothered me was about the Framer. I was just thinking that with the current investigation it says "your target is a framer or is framed" or something like that. But with yours, it doesn't say that the person could be framed- and I think you still mean to have this result show up on a person who is being framed, right? I just think this might be kind of confusing, especially when it would be first be changed or to new players. I mean the framer doesn't specifically say it makes someone appear as a framer, just that it makes them appear as mafia. So I think not having that little "or is being framed" tidbit feels kind of weird to me. I mean you could make it to where the Framer's description specifically says that it makes someone else appear as FRAMER and not just mafia, or maybe rework the investigation result a little bit.

-And for the retri/janitor/amne one, can't amnesiacs actually remember from a cleaned person? Or is that a bug? This isn't a huge critique, but if that is an intentional game mechanic, then this result would still make amnesiac hard to claim. I don't really care either way, it was just something I noticed.

-I'm not sure how I feel about the lookout/blackmailer/disguiser one. I kind of feel like having two mafia roles in one invest result could be dangerous. Like, a lot of people might decide Lookout is an unreliable, useless role and just lynch these people because of the high chance that they could be mafia. Plus, since blackmailer is support, and disguiser is deception, you could actually have BOTH of those roles in the same game. I also think lookout can be proven/disproved more easily than you might think. All you need to do is ask for a will, and it's hard to fake a lookout will- because you don't know who is visiting who. If you write down that someone was not visited by anyone on N3, but say, a doctor protected them N3? They can call you out. And the further you are into the game, the more nights you have to fake in your will.

-And the descriptions of the arso/doc and veteran/trans results don't seem that great to me. I know it's really hard to group those roles together, but while I was reading this I found myself stopping at both those parts trying to see if I could think of a better way to describe them as a pair. This of course isn't a huge deal, but maybe if someone could find a better way to kind of tie each of those pairs together, it would be nice.

Overall, I think this is pretty cool. I mean I don't think anyone can fully expect what would happen if all the investigation results in the game were changed- but this has a lot of good reasoning behind it. I like the idea of lumping the town-confirmable roles together, pairing gf with bg and survivor, and the other ones do seem like they could have potential.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Thu May 07, 2015 9:09 am

Kiyosen wrote:Won't the "Jester/SK" result lead to the same thing as the "Jester/Disguiser" result except more incentive to execute Jesters?


To execute? Absolutely. The Jailor is a wild card in these games. If he dies early, or loses his executes, the Jester is in much better shape. The SK/Jester result makes Jesters more dangerous. A Jester/Disguiser doesn't need to be lynched immediately because he's not doing the killing, so you have time to confirm the Investigator is truthful. A Serial Killer needs to die immediately. If you can't rely on Jailor, you need to lynch.

SarahSaurus wrote:I think this was a really interesting idea to try and help balance, by changing the invest results instead of just changing the Role List. I think there are a lot of good ideas here, but some of them don't quite make sense or could probably be tweaked. And I'm not trying to criticize, because I know this took a lot of effort and I do think it's pretty good- but I wonder if we could make it better? Idk.

-One thing that bothered me was about the Framer. I was just thinking that with the current investigation it says "your target is a framer or is framed" or something like that. But with yours, it doesn't say that the person could be framed- and I think you still mean to have this result show up on a person who is being framed, right? I just think this might be kind of confusing, especially when it would be first be changed or to new players. I mean the framer doesn't specifically say it makes someone appear as a framer, just that it makes them appear as mafia. So I think not having that little "or is being framed" tidbit feels kind of weird to me. I mean you could make it to where the Framer's description specifically says that it makes someone else appear as FRAMER and not just mafia, or maybe rework the investigation result a little bit.

-And for the retri/janitor/amne one, can't amnesiacs actually remember from a cleaned person? Or is that a bug? This isn't a huge critique, but if that is an intentional game mechanic, then this result would still make amnesiac hard to claim. I don't really care either way, it was just something I noticed.

-I'm not sure how I feel about the lookout/blackmailer/disguiser one. I kind of feel like having two mafia roles in one invest result could be dangerous. Like, a lot of people might decide Lookout is an unreliable, useless role and just lynch these people because of the high chance that they could be mafia. Plus, since blackmailer is support, and disguiser is deception, you could actually have BOTH of those roles in the same game. I also think lookout can be proven/disproved more easily than you might think. All you need to do is ask for a will, and it's hard to fake a lookout will- because you don't know who is visiting who. If you write down that someone was not visited by anyone on N3, but say, a doctor protected them N3? They can call you out. And the further you are into the game, the more nights you have to fake in your will.

-And the descriptions of the arso/doc and veteran/trans results don't seem that great to me. I know it's really hard to group those roles together, but while I was reading this I found myself stopping at both those parts trying to see if I could think of a better way to describe them as a pair. This of course isn't a huge deal, but maybe if someone could find a better way to kind of tie each of those pairs together, it would be nice.

Overall, I think this is pretty cool. I mean I don't think anyone can fully expect what would happen if all the investigation results in the game were changed- but this has a lot of good reasoning behind it. I like the idea of lumping the town-confirmable roles together, pairing gf with bg and survivor, and the other ones do seem like they could have potential.

Framer results just come up as "Your target is a Framer" but so do the results when your target is Framed.

Amnesiacs are disincentivized from remembering a cleaned body. You don't want to remember you were a Jester.

Lookout/Disguiser/Blackmailer and Doctor/Arsonist could also be Lookout/Blackmailer/Arsonist and Doctor/Disguiser, but I like the mafia's ability to claim Lookout better. It could go either way.

Descriptions will often suck. It's the way of it.

Again, if someone has a better list, they will have my full-throated support. But if someone were to suggest the CURRENT list, we'd all tear it to shreds for being absolute crap, balance-wise.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby EmeraldInfern02 » Thu May 07, 2015 9:26 am

some of these suggestions where very good. I can see some of them working. Some of them not working. i am not sure how i would feel about this though. it would change how the game is played dramatically
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Juuhazan » Thu May 07, 2015 9:51 am

Uhh...I think I can try my (ineffectual) hand at these description things.

Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town.
Sheriff, Framer or Executioner - Your target utilizes incriminating info.
Lookout, Blackmailer or Disguiser - Your target's work relies on gathering personal info or Your target prefers to work with discretion.
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - Your target works with magic.
Transporter or Veteran - Your target is unstable, but loyal to the town or Your target tends to work all night.
Bodyguard, Survivor or Godfather - Your target is not one to die easily/Your target is hard to kill. (Because stuff)

And that's all my nitpicking produced for this night. I only reworded them as to how I saw fit, so feel free to shoot this down to the ground. I'll try to think up other descriptions tomorrow. And it should go without saying that I like these role suggestions. They give more wiggle room to the other roles.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Alzar » Thu May 07, 2015 9:54 am

"Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town."

You mean... just like the entire town? ?_?

That's not awfully informative, since all Town are Town.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Thu May 07, 2015 10:10 am

Juuhazan wrote:Uhh...I think I can try my (ineffectual) hand at these description things.

Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town.
Sheriff, Framer or Executioner - Your target utilizes incriminating info.
Lookout, Blackmailer or Disguiser - Your target's work relies on gathering personal info.
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - Your target works with magic.
Transporter or Veteran - Your target is unstable, but loyal to the town.

And that's all my nitpicking produced for this night. I only reworded them as to how I saw fit, so feel free to shoot this down to the ground. I'll try to think up other descriptions tomorrow. And it should go without saying that I like these role suggestions. They give more wiggle room to the other roles.

I like it. Maybe, for the first one, "Your target is obviously loyal to town" or something.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby TheDeltax » Thu May 07, 2015 12:06 pm

Elastoid wrote:
Juuhazan wrote:Uhh...I think I can try my (ineffectual) hand at these description things.

Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town.
Sheriff, Framer or Executioner - Your target utilizes incriminating info.
Lookout, Blackmailer or Disguiser - Your target's work relies on gathering personal info.
Medium, Witch or Werewolf - Your target works with magic.
Transporter or Veteran - Your target is unstable, but loyal to the town.

And that's all my nitpicking produced for this night. I only reworded them as to how I saw fit, so feel free to shoot this down to the ground. I'll try to think up other descriptions tomorrow. And it should go without saying that I like these role suggestions. They give more wiggle room to the other roles.

I like it. Maybe, for the first one, "Your target is obviously loyal to town" or something.


"Your target is trusted by the town"(?)

I really like the idea of these new results; balance should be more considered than lore, since ToS itself is of course unrealistic
Roles I have 25 wins with: Jailor Doctor Bodyguard Godfather Serial Killer Lookout Veteran Sheriff Mayor Spy Investigator Jester Amnesiac Survivor

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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Mroz4k » Thu May 07, 2015 3:56 pm

As funny as it is, I already had my list put together before you two created yours. I didnt post it before you because I have around 8 different threads as work-in-progress and these were not on my priority list. However, my list had obvious mistakes, mainly one that bothered me lore-wise and balance-wise - Vampire Hunter+Survivor+Lookout combination. While at first it may not sound half bad, it would pretty much give Survivor a clear way to victory, if checked by Investigator, because he wouldnt be evil for sure.

While I did put my main idea list and its changed together in about 15 minutes, it took me another 2 hours to fit in lore on it, and finish in the description on why its a good / bad thing.
So I feel you, it is not an easy task as it may seems.

Already posted it under suggestions as Investigator results overhaul. Also gave you two credit because it would have taken me a lot longer to figure out those final adjustments had I not been inspired by your work.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Thu May 07, 2015 7:09 pm

Mroz4k wrote:As funny as it is, I already had my list put together before you two created yours. I didnt post it before you because I have around 8 different threads as work-in-progress and these were not on my priority list. However, my list had obvious mistakes, mainly one that bothered me lore-wise and balance-wise - Vampire Hunter+Survivor+Lookout combination. While at first it may not sound half bad, it would pretty much give Survivor a clear way to victory, if checked by Investigator, because he wouldnt be evil for sure.

While I did put my main idea list and its changed together in about 15 minutes, it took me another 2 hours to fit in lore on it, and finish in the description on why its a good / bad thing.
So I feel you, it is not an easy task as it may seems.

Already posted it under suggestions as Investigator results overhaul. Also gave you two credit because it would have taken me a lot longer to figure out those final adjustments had I not been inspired by your work.

Sorry, your results aren't good in comparison.

..................................................................... Your List ............................... My/Bloodringe list
Godfather........................................... Still dies instantly ................................. Has Bodyguard claim
Mafioso............................................... Same....................................................Same
Consort, Consigliere ...................................... Same............................................. Same
Janitor ................................................. Got worse, dies instantly ................................ Got worse, has Ret and Amnesiac claim
Disguiser .................................................... Still dies instantly ................................ Has Lookout claim
Blackmailer........................................ Got better with Lookout claim................... Got better with Lookout claim
Serial Killer .............................................. Same ......................................... Changed with Jester claim, better sometimes/worse sometimes
Arsonist................................................... Same.......................................... Got better with non-falsifiable claim
Werewolf.............................................. Got better with Bodyguard claim.......... Got better with Medium claim
Last edited by Elastoid on Fri May 08, 2015 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Juuhazan » Thu May 07, 2015 10:32 pm

Alzar wrote:"Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town."

You mean... just like the entire town? ?_?

That's not awfully informative, since all Town are Town.


I'd be willing to argue the specifics, but I agree that you're right. The caveats of thinking late at night -_-

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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Mroz4k » Fri May 08, 2015 6:25 am

Elastoid wrote:Sorry, your results aren't good in comparison.

..................................................................... Your List ............................... My/Bloodringe list
Godfather........................................... Still dies instantly ................................. Has Bodyguard claim
Mafioso............................................... Same....................................................Same
Consort, Consigliere ...................................... Same............................................. Same
Janitor ................................................. Got worse, dies instantly ................................ Got worse, has Ret and Amnesiac claim
Disguiser .................................................... Still dies instantly ................................ Has Lookout claim
Blackmailer........................................ Got better with Lookout claim................... Got better with Lookout claim
Serial Killer .............................................. Same ......................................... Changed with Jester claim, better sometimes/worse sometimes
Arsonist................................................... Same.......................................... Got better with non-falsifiable claim
Werewolf.............................................. Got better with Bodyguard claim.......... Got better with Medium claim


I dissagree. You kind of missed the whole point. The point is not to make every role less suspicious. That would be imbalancing Investigator. No, some roles are supposed to go down with Investigator claim easily, some are not.

You claim balance but what you do is in fact going to imbalance it. Some roles need to be easily proven as evil.

Godfather - Immune to Sheriff, with Mafioso also immune to jailor locking up, roleblock or Lookout, is immune against attack, and decides who dies for Mafia - is technically the boss. Therefore, it makes absolute sense to make Investigation tag be his only real weakness. Which is where I agree with the Vanilla list, putting Mayor and Godfather on the same tag. Godfather is being played about staying low, making sure they dont investigate you. Putting Survivor on that spot makes Survivor harder to win but also gives Godfather some leverage to claim a role even in case of investigated. If he says Survivor, is jailed but has Mafioso who still does the killings, then he can pretty much get away with it.

You suggestion puts up Bodyguard as a viable claim by Godfather, that makes Bodyguard distrustful. And it gives Godfather pretty much total immunity to investigations. Like I said, if Mafioso - Jailor or Escort or Lookout will not prove him, and without Mafioso he still has immunity to Sheriff, and immunity to attack.

So, in this case, my suggestion makes more sense balance-wise, even though your makes Godfather easily defendable.
Investigator is supposed to be kryptonite to Godfather.

Janitor is something I am working on, but its not that bad. Your Janitor is screwed because his only choice of role claim would be Amnesiac (which gives him one more day tops to prove innocence), or Retributionist which is a Unique role and also incredibly easily confirmable, again buying Janitor one extra day tops.

Werewolf - When was the last time anyone who claimed Medium after being called out as suspicious didnt get hung? Thats a very weak claim and everyone can make up the proof - therefore it would be improvement to Survivor/Witch, but it would be a very slight improvement.

Serial Killer - there is not a moment when having SK/Jester would be a good thing for SK. He has no chance to claim reasonable role for investigation, just play Jester. Since everyone can play Jester, noone will always believe you to be Jester. Jailor can execute you. Vig can shoot you and reveal you as a SK. The moment Neutral Evil is confirmed as Witch or dies as Exec or Jester, you are completedly and utterly fucked. So its in no way better, it only gets worse.
On the contrary, such a claim would be blessing for Jester, and make it pretty easy. Many people would consider 50/50% chance on hanging Jester instead of a Serial Killer as a very good risk. On the contrary, noone wants to sacrifice a possible Doctor - Town Protective.

Disguiser with Jester claim can at least jump over to another body if he manages to stall, therefore dodging the bullet completely if Forger or Janitor, or at least take a risk and hope the last will will not sell him out.
Having Lookout claim would be an improvement, but also a nerf for Lookout - which is an investigative class that can only be proven if they manage to get lucky and see someone visit someone else.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Gobln » Fri May 08, 2015 6:33 am

@Mroz
i dont think every role needs to be easily found as evil.
I think investigator is just supposed to get a hint at the persons roles.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Elastoid » Fri May 08, 2015 3:51 pm

Mroz4k wrote:
Elastoid wrote:Sorry, your results aren't good in comparison.

..................................................................... Your List ............................... My/Bloodringe list
Godfather........................................... Still dies instantly ................................. Has Bodyguard claim
Mafioso............................................... Same....................................................Same
Consort, Consigliere ...................................... Same............................................. Same
Janitor ................................................. Got worse, dies instantly ................................ Got worse, has Ret and Amnesiac claim
Disguiser .................................................... Still dies instantly ................................ Has Lookout claim
Blackmailer........................................ Got better with Lookout claim................... Got better with Lookout claim
Serial Killer .............................................. Same ......................................... Changed with Jester claim, better sometimes/worse sometimes
Arsonist................................................... Same.......................................... Got better with non-falsifiable claim
Werewolf.............................................. Got better with Bodyguard claim.......... Got better with Medium claim


I dissagree. You kind of missed the whole point. The point is not to make every role less suspicious. That would be imbalancing Investigator. No, some roles are supposed to go down with Investigator claim easily, some are not.

You claim balance but what you do is in fact going to imbalance it. Some roles need to be easily proven as evil.

Godfather - Immune to Sheriff, with Mafioso also immune to jailor locking up, roleblock or Lookout, is immune against attack, and decides who dies for Mafia - is technically the boss. Therefore, it makes absolute sense to make Investigation tag be his only real weakness. Which is where I agree with the Vanilla list, putting Mayor and Godfather on the same tag. Godfather is being played about staying low, making sure they dont investigate you. Putting Survivor on that spot makes Survivor harder to win but also gives Godfather some leverage to claim a role even in case of investigated. If he says Survivor, is jailed but has Mafioso who still does the killings, then he can pretty much get away with it.

You suggestion puts up Bodyguard as a viable claim by Godfather, that makes Bodyguard distrustful. And it gives Godfather pretty much total immunity to investigations. Like I said, if Mafioso - Jailor or Escort or Lookout will not prove him, and without Mafioso he still has immunity to Sheriff, and immunity to attack.

So, in this case, my suggestion makes more sense balance-wise, even though your makes Godfather easily defendable.
Investigator is supposed to be kryptonite to Godfather.

Janitor is something I am working on, but its not that bad. Your Janitor is screwed because his only choice of role claim would be Amnesiac (which gives him one more day tops to prove innocence), or Retributionist which is a Unique role and also incredibly easily confirmable, again buying Janitor one extra day tops.

Werewolf - When was the last time anyone who claimed Medium after being called out as suspicious didnt get hung? Thats a very weak claim and everyone can make up the proof - therefore it would be improvement to Survivor/Witch, but it would be a very slight improvement.

Serial Killer - there is not a moment when having SK/Jester would be a good thing for SK. He has no chance to claim reasonable role for investigation, just play Jester. Since everyone can play Jester, noone will always believe you to be Jester. Jailor can execute you. Vig can shoot you and reveal you as a SK. The moment Neutral Evil is confirmed as Witch or dies as Exec or Jester, you are completedly and utterly fucked. So its in no way better, it only gets worse.
On the contrary, such a claim would be blessing for Jester, and make it pretty easy. Many people would consider 50/50% chance on hanging Jester instead of a Serial Killer as a very good risk. On the contrary, noone wants to sacrifice a possible Doctor - Town Protective.

Disguiser with Jester claim can at least jump over to another body if he manages to stall, therefore dodging the bullet completely if Forger or Janitor, or at least take a risk and hope the last will will not sell him out.
Having Lookout claim would be an improvement, but also a nerf for Lookout - which is an investigative class that can only be proven if they manage to get lucky and see someone visit someone else.

So our problem, then, is that we're trying to accomplish fundamentally different things. Long before we could ever agree on a list, we'd need to agree on criteria for the list -- do we want to nerf Investigator or keep him the same? Do we want the Investigator to be able to confirm some roles' alignments, or only have hints? Is the Investigator for finding evils, or for testing claims?

All of these are valid questions. I'd suggest we try to find the answers first. I've been operating under the assumption that town was too strong and mafia needs a buff, so I've been trying to give evils more cover. The Godfather, yes, is now immune to Investigator and Sheriff, but he's incredibly vulnerable to Lookout, to Bodyguard, and to Escort or Jailor. Disguiser in its current iteration can't reliably survive being outed. He can't swap faces in jail, and even if he could swap faces, wills are always a thing, unless he's lucky and there's a Janitor.

The SK/Jester is a valid criticism. My list has very real flaws, yes. I think it has fewer flaws than yours, but again, we clearly have different goals.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Alzar » Fri May 08, 2015 4:21 pm

Juuhazan wrote:
Alzar wrote:"Jailor, Spy or Mayor - Your target's loyalty lies with the town."

You mean... just like the entire town? ?_?

That's not awfully informative, since all Town are Town.


I'd be willing to argue the specifics, but I agree that you're right. The caveats of thinking late at night -_-

Elastoid's already got it.

Mm, you actually do have a good idea there for flavour text! Maybe if could be "Your target was officially appointed by the town." or something. Jailors and Mayors seem to be an official position, and every good town has a Spy.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby lionon » Sat May 09, 2015 12:44 am

I agree, the investigator definitely needs an overhaul.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby Mroz4k » Sat May 09, 2015 1:37 pm

I see your point. Yes, I think we were trying to achieve two very different goals.

My goal was to make Investigator a bit more questionable as an investigative, I intended to make the Tags to be more vague and give off bigger freedom to claim the role according to the tag. Which is why I have almost all the Tags focused on three roles at once, and looking on yours, you have more tags in total because you have plenty of 2 Role tags.

Both is a valid points - I just dont know if I would focus on role confirmation as opposed to clue finding. Role confirmation through Investigator is moreless Ranked based suggestion, I believe. You have the whisperfest, then its all about confirming if they are telling the truth. In this case, your investigator makes sense but in the end, can this investigator be trusted? Id rather have it be an investigative who gives off possible clues. Sheriff would be much more straight-goer, on the other hand he cant get his hands on Arson or Neutral Evils or Godfather. Spy is (apart of this obvious whisper-hearing ability) purely focused on Mafia.Once Mafia is out, Spy looses a lot of use. Lookout is more of a protective/Investigative role - in most cases he gets the exact person he needs, but he needs to guess who will be attacked first. And it will still cost him a Team member / Neutral to get his job done.
Therefore I think Investigator would make most sense if he was all-around investigative, but his tags gave off much wider interpretation. And I mainly tried to stuff one of each allignment into an investigation tag - so Invest doesnt have any ´´confirmed´´ Town confidante, meaning he has to take the chance on whom to talk.
Away in the real world most of the time, but I return from time to time, at my own whim.


FM history:
Spoiler: NFM4 - Lookout - W
NFM7 - Consort - L (so close tho)
FM8D - Cit+ to Sheriff - W
FM9C - Cit - L (epicly failed)
CFM hydra 2 - Medium with Varanus - W
SFM17 - Caporegime - W
FM9D - Serial Killer - W (epicly :D)
SFM14 - Bodyguard-ish role - modkilled, caused MyLo FTW - W?
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby lionon » Sat May 09, 2015 3:21 pm

Even without mafia, spy is 100% proofen townie and still can guard the SK not whispering with witch or exe or whatever. His existence is still powerful even without his mafia specific capabilites.
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Re: New, balanced Investigator results

Postby transportowiec96 » Sun May 10, 2015 4:21 am

I'm always agreeing with new better Investigation results. These are fine.
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