Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

[405UserNotAllowed]

Right now in the ToS rules it says

Intentionally losing the game or hurting your teams chances of winning(even if that team is just you) is gamethrowing.

Example1:
A Mafia member dies and in his last will he reveals the names of all the living Mafia members. If those names are true then you are gamethrowing, if they are false then you are not.

I'd reccommend changing it to be against the rules even if they are false. Because even if you're not explicitly gamethrowing, you're still leading the town to believe that you have gamethrown and broken the rules, which shouldn't really be an acceptable tactic, because it

1. Makes real gamethrowing more palatable to other players
2. Causes players to report what they think are genuine gamethrows
3. Makes genuine gamethrows less obvious and harder to report
4. Isn't really a fair tactic because it's abusing the system outside of the gameplay (metagaming)

[blackaxe3]

I disagree. The fact is that putting fake mafia members in your will just isn't gamethrowing. Also metagaming isn't bannable either.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I support, pretending to cheat is already punishable

Should be the same with gamethrowing

[Superalex11]

remove jester

[FrancoisHollande]

I disagree. Although the goal is noble, enforcing a stricter rule about gamethrowing will be harmful for the game and remove possible strategies for the evil roles.

Not long ago there was an All Any game where the Arsonist "threw the game" and claimed Arsonist D1, and every days thereafter. Everyone thought they was a Jester and the investigative roles prioritised other targets. Needless to say, the Arsonist won D5. Should they have been kicked out of the game and banned for "outing themselves"?

Mafia who win the game by framing townies as mafia in wills and whatnot is not a gamethrowing problem, it is a town problem for not being capable of acquitting the framed townies. ToS was never realistic, metagaming have always been a part of the game.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I disagree. Although the goal is noble, enforcing a stricter rule about gamethrowing will be harmful for the game and remove possible strategies for the evil roles.

Not long ago there was an All Any game where the Arsonist "threw the game" and claimed Arsonist D1, and every days thereafter. Everyone thought they was a Jester and the investigative roles prioritised other targets. Needless to say, the Arsonist won D5. Should they have been kicked out of the game and banned for "outing themselves"?

Mafia who win the game by framing townies as mafia in wills and whatnot is not a gamethrowing problem, it is a town problem for not being capable of acquitting the framed townies. ToS was never realistic, metagaming have always been a part of the game.

Town lynched the other townies because they though the mafia was gamethrowing...how is that fair?

Also outing yourself is already reportable, levin said so, flav said so, reddit ppl not being able to accept it doesnt means its not true

[FrancoisHollande]

Town lynched the other townies because they though the mafia was gamethrowing...how is that fair?

How is that any different than being framed by a framer? Surely it isn't fun being framed and lynched, but this is a town problem. Town shouldn't lynch based on this framing unless the framed one fails to claim. Only evils would push for a lynch.

Also outing yourself is already reportable, levin said so, flav said so, reddit ppl not being able to accept it doesnt means its not true

And that is a problem. The rule should counter intended gamethrowing as in actually telling town who co-coven and co-mafia are. The rule should NOT forbid strategical outing for muddying the waters or other tactical meta-gameplay as methods for evils to actually survive and win the game.

[405UserNotAllowed]

Town lynched the other townies because they though the mafia was gamethrowing...how is that fair?

How is that any different than being framed by a framer? Surely it isn't fun being framed and lynched, but this is a town problem. Town shouldn't lynch based on this framing unless the framed one fails to claim. Only evils would push for a lynch.

Because the townies might report the the alleged gamethrower anyway, and it's not fair for the town to have to decide or find out if the alleged gamethrower was actually gamethrowing or not if it's at the cost of losing the game.

Also outing yourself is already reportable, levin said so, flav said so, reddit ppl not being able to accept it doesnt means its not true

And that is a problem. The rule should counter intended gamethrowing as in actually telling town who co-coven and co-mafia are. The rule should NOT forbid strategical outing for muddying the waters or other tactical meta-gameplay as methods for evils to actually survive and win the game.

Except it's not the Arsonist's job to help other evils at the expense of it's own victory. If it's specifically to help another Arsonist, then that would make more sense, but the Arsonist can only win with other Arsonists, or NE and NB roles that don't require a specific faction win.

An Arsonist suiciding to help a Serial Killer or Mafia wouldn't be acceptable. It's still gamethrowing their team, even if they're the only person on that team. If they outing yourself and then dying because of that is the same as revealing a teamate.

And yes you could argue "They're the only person who would lose out, so who cares?" but that's the same kind of logic if people were playing monopoly, and someone simply gives away all money and properties without trying to play. It disrupts the gameplay of others because one person doesn't want to play along.

[FrancoisHollande]

Except it's not the Arsonist's job to help other evils at the expense of it's own victory.

Let me quote what I wrote about the game with the Arsonist because you got a couple major details wrong....

Not long ago there was an All Any game where the Arsonist "threw the game" and claimed Arsonist D1, and every days thereafter. Everyone thought they was a Jester and the investigative roles prioritised other targets. Needless to say, the Arsonist won D5.

[Flavorable]

Because the townies might report the the alleged gamethrower anyway, and it's not fair for the town to have to decide or find out if the alleged gamethrower was actually gamethrowing or not if it's at the cost of losing the game.

And this is why people need to report WHEN THE GAME IS OVER. And not in a fit of rage during the game, just because this one Jester was pretending to out their mafia.

Fake gamethrowing will not be made against the rules. Instead people just need to be patient and look at the actual facts before reporting others.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

Town lynched the other townies because they though the mafia was gamethrowing...how is that fair?

How is that any different than being framed by a framer? Surely it isn't fun being framed and lynched, but this is a town problem. Town shouldn't lynch based on this framing unless the framed one fails to claim. Only evils would push for a lynch.
it is diferent because framed by framer means you were victim of another role ability, not by meta gaming

Also outing yourself is already reportable, levin said so, flav said so, reddit ppl not being able to accept it doesnt means its not true

And that is a problem. The rule should counter intended gamethrowing as in actually telling town who co-coven and co-mafia are. The rule should NOT forbid strategical outing for muddying the waters or other tactical meta-gameplay as methods for evils to actually survive and win the game.

I was talking about the "I am friendly SK" thing

[FrancoisHollande]

I was talking about the "I am friendly SK" thing

How widespread is that tactic really? As I have seen it played, they either get lynched D2 or they manage to gain town's trust. It is a very risky tactic as it requires the SK to hit mafia/Coven during night in addition to other evil factions and unfortunate townies being lynched during the days. Also evil killing roles must kill townies.

Despite how weird or risky this strategy is, it is still a strategy that aims for a win, not for an intended lose.

[syjfwbaobfwl]

I was talking about the "I am friendly SK" thing

How widespread is that tactic really? As I have seen it played, they either get lynched D2 or they manage to gain town's trust. It is a very risky tactic as it requires the SK to hit mafia/Coven during night in addition to other evil factions and unfortunate townies being lynched during the days. Also evil killing roles must kill townies.

Despite how weird or risky this strategy is, it is still a strategy that aims for a win, not for an intended lose.

It is still gamethrowing, at least it was like 3 weeks ago when flavorable said so in the reddit

[Flavorable]

I was talking about the "I am friendly SK" thing

How widespread is that tactic really? As I have seen it played, they either get lynched D2 or they manage to gain town's trust. It is a very risky tactic as it requires the SK to hit mafia/Coven during night in addition to other evil factions and unfortunate townies being lynched during the days. Also evil killing roles must kill townies.

Despite how weird or risky this strategy is, it is still a strategy that aims for a win, not for an intended lose.

It is still gamethrowing, at least it was like 3 weeks ago when flavorable said so in the reddit

Correct-a-mundo.

[FrancoisHollande]

How is "I am friendly SK" gamethrowing if the SK can win this way? Must say I disagree with the game mods here. Especially for a SK with a low player number (= top end of the player list) with higher risk of getting vfr-ed. In some games any Doc-claim after SK kills is instant lynch, and claiming something else is risky if there's Investigators in the game. I can see how an alternative strategy might give the SK a better chances of winning the game aka not getting lynched, and if the SK friendly with town manages to betray and cripple the town before getting lynched D8, that certainly is better than getting lynched D2 over a Doc claim.

[Superalex11]

How is "I am friendly SK" gamethrowing if the SK can win this way? Must say I disagree with the game mods here.

The devs themselves have set self-outing as evil as gt, and this hasn't been meaningfully contested since at least the p2p change (this was when that rule was most recently clarified). Trials has many issues, and there may be arguments for disobeying the will of the devs at times, but this isn't some strange edge case where you might get traction for your case. Outing oneself as evil (strictly against town), with the full intention of convincing others that you are truthfully your evil role, goes directly against the spirit of the game.

[405UserNotAllowed]

How is "I am friendly SK" gamethrowing if the SK can win this way? Must say I disagree with the game mods here. Especially for a SK with a low player number (= top end of the player list) with higher risk of getting vfr-ed. In some games any Doc-claim after SK kills is instant lynch, and claiming something else is risky if there's Investigators in the game. I can see how an alternative strategy might give the SK a better chances of winning the game aka not getting lynched, and if the SK friendly with town manages to betray and cripple the town before getting lynched D8, that certainly is better than getting lynched D2 over a Doc claim.

I mean really, this wouldn't be a strategy if it wasn't for the town who then decides it's a good idea to let a serial killer live, which would be gamethrowing since town can't win with SK. I would never complain about this strategy if the town never accepted it.

[FrancoisHollande]

which would be gamethrowing since town can't win with SK.

Who can and can't win with who is irrelevant, cross faction cooperation for focusing on common enemies of both factions can't be gamethrowing as it benefits both.
For town SK becomes a temporary expandable TK and voting weight against Mafia/Coven/other NK like Arso and Pestilence, which benefits the town for as long as they still are in control of the relationship.
Meanwhile for SK a temporary alliance with town helps them do their nightly business without getting lynched, and even when the nightly target is a common enemy pinpointed by the town, the kill still is beneficial for the SK to get rid of them.

Town can't win with SK, and SK can't win with town. So what? Either the town remains strong until the end and lynches the SK as the last killing evil, and in this kind of games the town with Mafia /Coven would have found and lynched the SK early anyway. Or the alliance between the town and SK ends the dramatic way by other evils tinning out the town, causing town to lose their control and be betrayed by SK when there common enemies are dead.

I am arguing for the strategy with All any/Coven All Any in my mind as those are the only modes that really allows unorthodox thinking.

[blackaxe3]

it’d be gamethrowing to NOT use this strategy

Uh, no it wouldn’t? When I’m SK and mafia/town are even I generally claim some useless Town role like Medium so neither the Town or Mafia targets me. It’s never gamethrowing to NOT use a strategy when there are viable alternatives.

[Crona111]

In theory, a Mafia member could write down actual Mafia names in the hope that the Town will think they’re fake and lynch other people. Couldn’t they? Except under the rules, that is GTing.

It needs to be consistent.

Either outing is NEVER reportable - unless it’s intentionally done to gamethrow, and this is explicitly said by the offender, same as with the leaving rule - OR outing is ALWAYS reportable, regardless of whether the names are real or not, in a similar vein as to the bot rule, which punishes the offender regardless of whether they are actually a bot/throwing. I don’t care which. There CANNOT be a middle ground.

As for the “friendly SK” argument, if the Town and Mafia have low but roughly even numbers, and you are under suspicion, outing yourself to “ally” with Town (and stab them in the back) is often the only way to ensure a victory. Since gamethrowing is defined as “playing to lose”, it’d be gamethrowing to NOT use this strategy, as otherwise you will be put on the chopping block.

Everybody seems to ignore this wonderfully worded post though

And this is why people need to report WHEN THE GAME IS OVER. And not in a fit of rage during the game, just because this one Jester was pretending to out their mafia.

Fake gamethrowing will not be made against the rules. Instead people just need to be patient and look at the actual facts before reporting others.

[405UserNotAllowed]

Fake gamethrowing will not be made against the rules.

But why? You didn't give an explanation.

[Superalex11]

Fake gamethrowing will not be made against the rules.

But why? You didn't give an explanation.

The simple reason is because nothing about the rules will meaningfully change; nothing has, in at least 3 years, despite how easy it would be.
And as I've said before: neither the devs nor anyone in charge of Trials is willing to do anything about its problems. So it will rot, and we will be here another 3 years down the line reading more people coming in with the same complaints.

[EqsyLootz]

Yeah no, on behalf of the trial system this is a horrible idea.
Fake gamethrowing is not the same as fake cheating. If you claim to cheat you will be banned because there's no way we can prove what you say isn't true. When it comes to gamethrowing we can prove it isn't true.
Fake gamethrowing gives leverage on mafia for other strategies and yes it may seem like "meta-gaming" but as many other users stated out meta-gaming is a valid (yet frowned upon) strategy.
So far enough people complain about false bans (which aren't actually false) so adding another rule will just make people angrier.
Sorry but not gonna happen.

[EqsyLootz]

How is "I am friendly SK" gamethrowing if the SK can win this way? Must say I disagree with the game mods here. Especially for a SK with a low player number (= top end of the player list) with higher risk of getting vfr-ed. In some games any Doc-claim after SK kills is instant lynch, and claiming something else is risky if there's Investigators in the game. I can see how an alternative strategy might give the SK a better chances of winning the game aka not getting lynched, and if the SK friendly with town manages to betray and cripple the town before getting lynched D8, that certainly is better than getting lynched D2 over a Doc claim.

Because you're presenting all factions uneaven playing field and you're just going to cost yourself the game if the rest of the game is actually competant.
At this point just reading through this thread is hurting my brain so I'm going to take my leave

[Crona111]

If I claim to be a botter in my will, my account will be permanently banned. There’s no investigation on whether or not I was a bot, admitting to botting is perma’d and unappealable. Real or fake, I get banned.

Why isn’t gamethrowing treated like that?

There's no real strategical advantage from pretending to be a bot (Outside from minor, niche cases), whereas roles can win by pretending to throw. Though, in my opinion, every infraction should be judged on a case-by-case basis as context changes everything. We shouldn't ban all fake gamethrowing, where certain cases where you did lie but it was still detrimental to you or your faction can be considered throwing.