more clear rules please

[ProjectSYD]

Rules very unclear; I banned for something I was told by mod years ago was okay. Then I banned for spamming because I type "..." a few times in dead chat - wasn't even spam it was just typing in response to what I was watching in game but I whispering so ... = quiet. Not like copy/pasta wall of text so I feel like this was boderline but whatever i don't do this no more. Also banned for trying to get report on gamethrower who bus me without permission. I was told you cannot do this unless you get permissions and was banned for tyring this once so I don't do this anymore but I get banned for asking peoples to report him but he not get banned?

what are all the specific rules? i will follow everything I just not clear on everything specificallies.

[williewest]

Link: P2P Guide

Note: This doc is a guide by BMG for jurors of the Trial System to give them an idea of what range they are allowed when voting, but it gives a good idea of what is or isn't against the rules.

[Joacgroso]

Some rules, like the spamming one, are intentionally ambiguous to give versatility to the jurors. Remember that you can also read the rules ingame (just click "play" and then "read rules").

I don't think your spam was that bad, but I can see it being annoying. It really added nothing to the game. Bussing someone without their consent was never gamethrowing as far as I know. And right now, gamethrowing rules are extremely lax, so it's even less likely that such a play will be punished. Keep in mind that you weren't suspended for telling people to report the person who bussed you. You were suspended for outing another mafia as mafia (it would have been okay if you had claimed town to out them, since you would at least gain credibility. Of course, that was impossible in your scenario). You wouldn't have been punished if you had asked town to report that mafia member after he died or after the game ended.

[ProjectSYD]

Some rules, like the spamming one, are intentionally ambiguous to give versatility to the jurors. Remember that you can also read the rules ingame (just click "play" and then "read rules").

I don't think your spam was that bad, but I can see it being annoying. It really added nothing to the game. Bussing someone without their consent was never gamethrowing as far as I know. And right now, gamethrowing rules are extremely lax, so it's even less likely that such a play will be punished. Keep in mind that you weren't suspended for telling people to report the person who bussed you. You were suspended for outing another mafia as mafia (it would have been okay if you had claimed town to out them, since you would at least gain credibility. Of course, that was impossible in your scenario). You wouldn't have been punished if you had asked town to report that mafia member after he died or after the game ended.

So i been banned a few years back for bussing teammate and mods told me I had to have permission or I would be banned. So that is gamethrowing unless rules change but i hate this because I try to follow rules always. Anyways, I won't put it in my note anymore but there need to be a better way to get people to report because no one listen to me when I say to report thrower. They just think I lying and then I'm afraid to ask because I'm afraid to be report for spam.

[Joacgroso]

I can't say anything about your old ban because that report is archived. But yes, the rules changed with the years. I'm afraid that just because you think someone broke a rule it doesn't mean they should be reported. If you want to report someone but everyone else thinks what they did was fine, maybe the other player doesn't deserve a punishment. This can backfire in games with lots of trolls/leavers, and that's when you can help by joining the trial system as I said in my other post. You won't be able to help yourself, but at least you will prevent other players from being victims of unreported rulebreaking.

Also, you won't be punished for spamming if you tell people to report someone many times in a game. Just do it once at the beginning of each day/night and you will be fine. You simply don't need to be obnoxious about it. Also, if someone else in the game is reported for any reason, you can ask jurors on the trial system to duplicate a report against the rulebreaker for you. There's no guarantee that they will do it, but there's a chance. You'll have to join the trial system discord for that.

[ProjectSYD]

I can't say anything about your old ban because that report is archived. But yes, the rules changed with the years. I'm afraid that just because you think someone broke a rule it doesn't mean they should be reported. If you want to report someone but everyone else thinks what they did was fine, maybe the other player doesn't deserve a punishment. This can backfire in games with lots of trolls/leavers, and that's when you can help by joining the trial system as I said in my other post. You won't be able to help yourself, but at least you will prevent other players from being victims of unreported rulebreaking.

Also, you won't be punished for spamming if you tell people to report someone many times in a game. Just do it once at the beginning of each day/night and you will be fine. You simply don't need to be obnoxious about it. Also, if someone else in the game is reported for any reason, you can ask jurors on the trial system to duplicate a report against the rulebreaker for you. There's no guarantee that they will do it, but there's a chance. You'll have to join the trial system discord for that.

hmmm, I feels like it probably best for me to just let trolls/gamethrowers do their thing too much risk involve trying to get peoples to report them. I just sit quietly in my games and share will and infos when needed nothign else. Silly ban for slily stuffs.

[Joacgroso]

Did you understand that you were suspended for gamethrowing and not for reporting someone?

[ProjectSYD]

Did you understand that you were suspended for gamethrowing and not for reporting someone?

well i wasn't trying to gamethrow so I was suspended for trying to report.

[Joacgroso]

Gamethrowing is intentionally decreasing your chance's of winning. You can't "try to gamethrow" or "not try to gamethrow". You exposed a mafia member after you were lynched, knowing what you were doing and that no one in your team would gain anything from it. You greatly increased the disguiser's chances of dying. Even the report category is "gamethrowing", not "reporting" or "harassment".

Also, if we don't punish people for outing fellow mafia in their will, then ill-intentioned gamethrowers will abuse that loophole to get away with the most blatant gamethrowing, and we can't allow that.

[ProjectSYD]

Gamethrowing is intentionally decreasing your chance's of winning. You can't "try to gamethrow" or "not try to gamethrow". You exposed a mafia member after you were lynched, knowing what you were doing and that no one in your team would gain anything from it. You greatly increased the disguiser's chances of dying. Even the report category is "gamethrowing", not "reporting" or "harassment".

Also, if we don't punish people for outing fellow mafia in their will, then ill-intentioned gamethrowers will abuse that loophole to get away with the most blatant gamethrowing, and we can't allow that.

but i not intended to gamethrow i intended to ban gamethrower. So therefore not really gamethrowing just misunderstanding. No more trying to report gamethrowers for me.

[Joacgroso]

You intended to expose a fellow mafia, which would obviously lead to his death (even if in that case town was too incompetent to lynch him). Feel free not to report people, but don't complain about toxic players later.

[ProjectSYD]

no my intention was to have gamethrower ban nothing else. You are making assumption i intend to throw.

[Joacgroso]

In order to have him banned you had to expose him, which is what you did. If you cared both about punishing a thrower and winning the game, you would have told town to report him after he died or at the end of the game.

In any case the rules (posted by williewest above) say that spite-revealing is gamethrowing, so you 100% gamethrew and there's no point arguing that. If people were able to use that kind of excuses for blatant gamethrowing, GT wouldn't be punished ever.

tl;dr: You intended to expose a mafia member only to hurt them, which is gamethrowing regardless of wheter you "intended to intentionally decrease your own chances of winning" (which isn't a thing) or not.

[ProjectSYD]

no tldr you don't know what I intend to do cause you aren't me. I just won't do it again i not arguing that I just think its stupid can't send report about gamethrower without being banned.

[Flavorable]

The person in question, first of, wasn't gamethrowing.

If he HAD been gamethrowing, you could have asked people to report them AFTER the game is over, or AFTER the person in question has died. Not out them in your will, simple as that.

As for the rules: It is always your responsibility to make sure you stay up to date on the rules. Expanded rules are posted in several topics, in several Discord Channels as well as on Steam. Plus it is also found when browsing the appeals forum when seeing what people get suspended or banned for. And if you're unsure, there are multiple ways to contact staff or even active jurors and players with knowledge about the rules, so you can get more info. We do, however, expect people to use common sense and to know that one rulebreak (or what you think may be a rulebreak) does not excuse another rulebreak, especially not one where you could have used common sense to know that outting your own fellow mafia member in your last will would result in your lowering your team's chances of winning.

Being oblivious to rules has never been a valid excuse for rulebreaks.

[ProjectSYD]

The person in question, first of, wasn't gamethrowing.

If he HAD been gamethrowing, you could have asked people to report them AFTER the game is over, or AFTER the person in question has died. Not out them in your will, simple as that.

As for the rules: It is always your responsibility to make sure you stay up to date on the rules. Expanded rules are posted in several topics, in several Discord Channels as well as on Steam. Plus it is also found when browsing the appeals forum when seeing what people get suspended or banned for. And if you're unsure, there are multiple ways to contact staff or even active jurors and players with knowledge about the rules, so you can get more info. We do, however, expect people to use common sense and to know that one rulebreak (or what you think may be a rulebreak) does not excuse another rulebreak, especially not one where you could have used common sense to know that outting your own fellow mafia member in your last will would result in your lowering your team's chances of winning.

Being oblivious to rules has never been a valid excuse for rulebreaks.

I'm sorry but I disagree; I look at rules online and don't see any expanded. How am I supposed to know there is nother source for rules? I follow rules as written. can you direct me to official source for rules so I can refresh? I was banned for exactly what this person does a few years ago and was told it was a big no no. So how am I sposed to no this changed? I find rules on official post and no mention of expanded rules. This is bad management.

[Joacgroso]

You can read the rules ingame.

[ProjectSYD]

You can read the rules ingame.

So by that definition what the other guy did was gamethrowing... i don't get the difference? it's not clear. Very bad an unorganized.

[Flavorable]

No, the other guy bussed you to try and make his town claim more valid, in an attempt to solidify your faction's win.

What you did was lower your faction's win chances by outting your fellow mafia, making sure everyone knows they're mafia and thus thwarting any attempt they made at making the rest of the people believe they were town and not mafia.

The big difference is: He did it to try and win, you did it because you thought he broke the rules and subsequently decided that your win chances no longer mattered.

[ProjectSYD]

No but bussing me lowered the chances so you're wrong i'm right haha bye.

[Flavorable]

If you just want to be right, you're in the wrong place, buddy.

[ProjectSYD]

No, the other guy bussed you to try and make his town claim more valid, in an attempt to solidify your faction's win.

What you did was lower your faction's win chances by outting your fellow mafia, making sure everyone knows they're mafia and thus thwarting any attempt they made at making the rest of the people believe they were town and not mafia.

The big difference is: He did it to try and win, you did it because you thought he broke the rules and subsequently decided that your win chances no longer mattered.

Instead of talking like I'm a a complete moron I'll explain to you how you're objectively wrong.

How to win as mafia in Ranked Classic:

When you're playing as mafia in Ranked Classic, your objective is to kill as many town people as you can while hiding your identity from the rest of the town. The sooner votes are in your favor or in a stalemate is when you have your greatest advantage. Pretty frequently, town can end up in a stalemate as early as day three (6v6) and this is usually a result of town killing themselves during D2 or N2.

In a 6v6, the witch can control the jailor making the jailor unable to execute. Assuming mafia land a kill N3, evil now have majority over the town and can lynch the jailor without fear of being executed. TK often cannot come out when witch is still alive, or has already come out because of vet bait/kill. At this point, town usually needs a miracle to win (transporter, RT TK, mayor) but chances are fairly slim.

So long as mafia maintain their majority they can continue to vote out threats instead of having to risk killing high-risk targets at night.

By bussing a teammate you're objectively and intentionally putting your team at a disadvantage when you're mafia ESPECIALLY if you're bussing the GF or the Mafioso. The mafia are at their highest disadvantage when either of these players are removed from the game as it allows the jailor and any potential escorts to begin role blocking to prevent kills. One lucky jail/roleblock essentially spells out the loss for your team.

So while bussing me D1 might seem like a good strategy it's actually terrible. I've climbed to masters & am on my way climbing to masters again and I can tell you it is objectively bad. You are wrong. Good day sir.

[Joacgroso]

It doesn't matter if the play was good or bad. The only thing that matters if that that player was clearly intending to win, and therefore he wasn't gamethrowing.

[ProjectSYD]

No they weren't they were clearly griefing me for not wanting to make a claim during the day & wanting to wait until I'm on stand to make a claim.

[ProjectSYD]

If you just want to be right, you're in the wrong place, buddy.

And you're objectively bad at your job buddy.