Coven Town Traitor

[Midio7]

Currently, Coven Town Traitor Is In Coven's favour. They always win. Why so? What's the difference beetween Classic and Coven TT? Well...
In classic TT, where Town almost always wins, goes like this:
-Jailor always claims D1, so the Lookout can confirm most of the TP while the confirmed slot for the Doctor Is good because Doctor just gives powerful defense to the Jailor.
-The Witch sometimes messes up Mafia's plans, while there are just 3 Mafia members+TT

In Coven TT, where Coven almost always wins, goes like this:
-Jailor claims D1, Crusader kills some townies while Instead of a Lookout who can confirm most of the TP, there's a Tracker slot, and the TI slot Is unlikely to be a Lookout.
-Instead of a NE, Coven has 4 members +TT resulting in 5 Coven members talking at night
-While remembering that the Doctor slot Is taken for the Crusader slot, In Coven there's a chance that there's a Poisoner that can be stoped only by a Doctor, which Is unlikely to be In the TP slot where It's choosen 1 TP from 4, unlike Classic where It has only 2 TP In the game.

Fix:Either take out the Crusader slot for a Doctor/BodyGuard, or either take out Tracker for a Lookout, also, the fourth RC needs to be removed with a Jester or Executioner. Yeah, I understand that If there's a confirmed Doctor every game It might make Poisoner useless, BUT, the Jailor is left with just 1 protection, and If that TP Is dead, the Doctor has to choose beetween the Jailor or a townie.

Fix in classic TT? Not really sure. You do realise that If Witch could talk with Mafia at night It would be a big buff to the Mafia? People say to make Witch not a ,,part of the Mafia" meaning that the countdown could start while he Witch is still alive. The countdown Is supposed to find the TT. If there would be a Witch, the Town would just focus on searching for the TT, but, Witch could also use a Vigilante and accidentaly shoot the TT.
I don't really know a fix for Classic TT but the countdown being able to start while Witch is still alive is absurd.

What do you all think?

[Ezradekezra]

I rarely see Jailor claim D1 in CTT because of Medusa. Additionally, I'd say that CTT is actually pretty well balanced between the Town and the Coven. Around half of my games result in Town wins while the other half are Coven wins. Also, if you want to nerf the Coven in CTT, why are you advocating for the removal of the best TP in the game from the role list?

I've never played Mafia TT before, but I do hear that the Witch not knowing who the Mafia are D1 is pretty bad. Maybe something should be done about that.

[OreCreeper]

I rarely see Jailor claim D1 in CTT because of Medusa. Additionally, I'd say that CTT is actually pretty well balanced between the Town and the Coven. Around half of my games result in Town wins while the other half are Coven wins. Also, if you want to nerf the Coven in CTT, why are you advocating for the removal of the best TP in the game from the role list?

I've never played Mafia TT before, but I do hear that the Witch not knowing who the Mafia are D1 is pretty bad. Maybe something should be done about that.

Honestly if town were playing optimally, or at least even giving a shit, coven and mafia would be rarely winning. But you have your leavers and your afk'ers every game who got mad that they didn't get to be the traitor jailor or mayor. Once, in a classic TT game, 5 townies left d1, including the jailor, giving mafia the majority on d2. The only thing I'd really change about either mode is swapping witch in classic TT to a random mafia.

[kyuss420]

Currently, Coven Town Traitor Is In Coven's favour. They always win. Why so? What's the difference beetween Classic and Coven TT? Well...
In classic TT, where Town almost always wins, goes like this:
-Jailor always claims D1, so the Lookout can confirm most of the TP while the confirmed slot for the Doctor Is good because Doctor just gives powerful defense to the Jailor.
-The Witch sometimes messes up Mafia's plans, while there are just 3 Mafia members+TT

In Coven TT, where Coven almost always wins, goes like this:
-Jailor claims D1, Crusader kills some townies while Instead of a Lookout who can confirm most of the TP, there's a Tracker slot, and the TI slot Is unlikely to be a Lookout.
-Instead of a NE, Coven has 4 members +TT resulting in 5 Coven members talking at night
-While remembering that the Doctor slot Is taken for the Crusader slot, In Coven there's a chance that there's a Poisoner that can be stoped only by a Doctor, which Is unlikely to be In the TP slot where It's choosen 1 TP from 4, unlike Classic where It has only 2 TP In the game.

Fix:Either take out the Crusader slot for a Doctor/BodyGuard, or either take out Tracker for a Lookout, also, the fourth RC needs to be removed with a Jester or Executioner. Yeah, I understand that If there's a confirmed Doctor every game It might make Poisoner useless, BUT, the Jailor is left with just 1 protection, and If that TP Is dead, the Doctor has to choose beetween the Jailor or a townie.

Fix in classic TT? Not really sure. You do realise that If Witch could talk with Mafia at night It would be a big buff to the Mafia? People say to make Witch not a ,,part of the Mafia" meaning that the countdown could start while he Witch is still alive. The countdown Is supposed to find the TT. If there would be a Witch, the Town would just focus on searching for the TT, but, Witch could also use a Vigilante and accidentaly shoot the TT.
I don't really know a fix for Classic TT but the countdown being able to start while Witch is still alive is absurd.

What do you all think?

just No.

They purposely removed doctor from the list and replaced it with crusader during the PTR, because yes, poisoner is absolutely useless with a guaranteed doctor in game. Also, every TP can stop a poisoner. Also chances are a poisoner wont roll and coven will have a hex master and a necromancer, who wont kill anyone until the CL is dead.

Coven towns dont need a LO either, tracker is much better.

Sorry crusader and medusa are messing with your TP/LO on the jailor meta, that youve gotten so used to, you have no idea how to play any other way these days....maybe go play ranked if thats how you want every game to go?

If jailor reveals day 1 in coven, the crusader is stupid if he visits any other player. Any player visiting the jailor should also expect to die to crus. Most crusaders will reveal they are on the jailor after the jailor has claimed, this way any TP can be on the crusader (especially high IQ in games with 2 crusaders). The 2nd TP should try to remain hidden, and camp on the crusader claim....the tracker should also be on the crusader, as a high IQ Coven Leader play is controlling the outed crusader to Medusa n1 (before BGs and trappers protection come into effect) that way if the crusader is stoned, the tracker knows who he visited so knows the Medusa.

jailor cant be controlled to medusa, so basically cant be killed until n3 anyway, so even with a dead crus n1, BG and trapper can successfully protect the jailor even if they couldnt protect the crus n1/n2.

tl/dr: your noob classic metas wont work in coven situations. Coven towns have their own roles that are better at countering covens plays than classic roles. The mode doesnt need to change to make classic metas easier to exist in coven. Its easy to see why coven wins more often in your games, they sure dont win more often in my games, theyre all dead by day 4/5 and its tt hunt time.
If your going to play coven modes like you play classic modes, be prepared to lose more often than not.

coming up with fixes to ''its broken because I cant play the same way I play classic'' - we dont want the mode to be played like classic, thats why we spent the $5 for the DLC. Learn to change your play style depending on the mode you choose.... every mode requires a different style of play.

[sarysa]

I can't agree with the original post's premise because it assumes that the Jailor meta is the only way to play Coven TT.

The Jailor meta does not belong in Coven TT. It's designed for Classic TT and it works best there as well.

The towns I see be successful:
- The Jailor hides, and uses their best judgment.
- The Crusader targets folks who are at high risk for being controlled or otherwise attacked.
- The supporting protectives focus on minor risk players.

As proven town are discovered and networks of trust rise, and as information is fed to both the town and the Jailor publicly, the Town Killing roles can make better deductions and the town will be far better primed for discovering the traitor.

In Classic TT, the Jailor meta sterilizes the mode nearly as much as Ranked. I'm thankful the Crusader throws a huge wrench into the whole thing. It allows for a more diverse playstyle and for clever players to make amazing plays. I wouldn't change a thing.