Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

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Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:55 pm

Now that the devs are talking about possible fixes to some roles, I think it's a good moment to bring this role up. Vampire hunters are broken, especially in Dracula's palace. They make vamps unable to coordinate at night, while they have no way to fight back except hoping someone else takes him down. They may get mayority and lynch him, but that's very hard in a gamemode with such a limited claimspace.
I think VH shouldn't be able to read vampire chat. This would make the gamemode actually fun for vampires. They should also have some way of dealing with VHs, but removing their chat reading ability is something that should have been done ages ago. Please do it.
Last edited by Joacgroso on Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Royee » Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:58 pm

agree
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:45 pm

Possible rework: Every other night, the VH is told how many alive Vampires there are?
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:12 pm

Instead of their current abilities? That would be too UP.
I think they should still kill vampires, but not be immune to them. Maybe their vamp immunity/counterattack could have limited uses, like a vest that doesn't require them to stay home. Or maybe vamps could have a special kill, reserved for the VH, that bypasses their immunity. They would have the option to use it and the target would be killed instead of converted. This would "force" VHs to hide (although with the amount of protectives in DP, that wouldn't really matter). Or maybe just remove the counterattack and just make the VH die instead of being converted.
What I'm totally sure about is that VH shouldn't read the chat. That's detrimental to the game.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:14 pm

Joacgroso wrote:I think VH shouldn't be able to read vampire chat.


This for sure. It's very straightforwardly needed.

Other nerfs are probably deserved too, but this is the "please change immediately" part.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:01 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:I think VH shouldn't be able to read vampire chat.


This for sure. It's very straightforwardly needed.

Other nerfs are probably deserved too, but this is the "please change immediately" part.

Exactly. That's what I was trying to say.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby cob709 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 8:12 pm

VH should not have the ability to read Vampire chats, it's literally copied from old spy
Also, they shouldn't have the passive ability to stake vampires.

The two things above should be replaced with 3 vampire hunter "alerts", meaning they will stake any vampires that visit them that night
this gives vampires an actual chance of killing the VH, without making VH underpowered

Summary:
-VH loses ability to see vampire chat
-VH loses ability to passive stake vampires
+VH gains ability to use VH "alerts", that only kill vampires

Now the VH and Vampire can kill each other, and the VH still has a way to defend themselves
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby ABadWord » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:25 pm

If a VH is bit will he stake himself or will he just become a vamp, assuming we remove his immunity.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:27 pm

I'm thinking he should be killed by the vamps outright, same as they do to a Mafia member.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Aug 24, 2020 11:17 pm

cob709 wrote:VH should not have the ability to read Vampire chats, it's literally copied from old spy
Also, they shouldn't have the passive ability to stake vampires.

The two things above should be replaced with 3 vampire hunter "alerts", meaning they will stake any vampires that visit them that night
this gives vampires an actual chance of killing the VH, without making VH underpowered

Summary:
-VH loses ability to see vampire chat
-VH loses ability to passive stake vampires
+VH gains ability to use VH "alerts", that only kill vampires

Now the VH and Vampire can kill each other, and the VH still has a way to defend themselves

I don't think VH should have 3 alerts. Dracula's palace is already full of TPs and lookouts. 1 is enough.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby cob709 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:28 am

Joacgroso wrote:
cob709 wrote:VH should not have the ability to read Vampire chats, it's literally copied from old spy
Also, they shouldn't have the passive ability to stake vampires.

The two things above should be replaced with 3 vampire hunter "alerts", meaning they will stake any vampires that visit them that night
this gives vampires an actual chance of killing the VH, without making VH underpowered

Summary:
-VH loses ability to see vampire chat
-VH loses ability to passive stake vampires
+VH gains ability to use VH "alerts", that only kill vampires

Now the VH and Vampire can kill each other, and the VH still has a way to defend themselves

I don't think VH should have 3 alerts. Dracula's palace is already full of TPs and lookouts. 1 is enough.

alright fair enough
ultimately, it's up to the developers

but yeah i think vampires should have the opportunity to kill/convert VH
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 2:16 am

I think theres nothing wrong with VH counterattack and immunity. If vamps are dumb enough to vote to bite randos, they get what they get.... and if they all voted on the same player, then they would know early enough who the VH is.

A better idea would be to remove the 1 night wait after a conversion, and let vamps bite every night, or tie vamp bites in with the full moon, so they can bite every night late game. Buff the vamps, instead of nerfing the VH. Its the 1 night wait that gives town the biggest advantage, and allows the VH to kill twice in the time it takes to convert 1 player...

The whole point of vampires is to gain majority.... voting off a VH shouldnt be that hard if you are playing well (besides, witch should be on the VH, in Dracs Palace, and you should be protecting witch by taking out the LOs fast)

The whole chat reading, makes it hard to strategise tho. Agree that should be removed... you cant explain any decent strats to the new players, you cant tell people why you want to bite certain players, you cant even tell each other info you have from before you were converted....
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Brilliand » Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:55 am

kyuss420 wrote:A better idea would be to remove the 1 night wait after a conversion, and let vamps bite every night, or tie vamp bites in with the full moon, so they can bite every night late game. Buff the vamps, instead of nerfing the VH. Its the 1 night wait that gives town the biggest advantage, and allows the VH to kill twice in the time it takes to convert 1 player...


The Vampires must not be allowed to gain a member every single night, as that's enough to cancel out the daily lynch.

You seem to think that every game with vampires in it should revolve around the Vampires vs. VH conflict.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:07 pm

Ez fix:
Vampire Hunters attack other vampire hunters
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:11 pm

I don't think VH's immunity is bad because it punishes vamps for biting randoms. Finding the VH is easy. What I don't like is that vamps can't do anything to eliminate VH even if they find him. I don't like the idea of them having to rely on witch to be safe from VH, when witch can just kill both vamps and VH for a solo win if she feels like it. Biting the lookouts doesn't sound easy with so many protectives alive, but I guess it's doable (I haven't played much DP).
In the current state, hiding from the VH as vamp is almost impossible since you can't coordinate claims or plans with vamps anyway. And in DP you have to wait for a vampire to die in order to start converting anyway.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Aug 26, 2020 1:36 am

Brilliand wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:A better idea would be to remove the 1 night wait after a conversion, and let vamps bite every night, or tie vamp bites in with the full moon, so they can bite every night late game. Buff the vamps, instead of nerfing the VH. Its the 1 night wait that gives town the biggest advantage, and allows the VH to kill twice in the time it takes to convert 1 player...


The Vampires must not be allowed to gain a member every single night, as that's enough to cancel out the daily lynch.

You seem to think that every game with vampires in it should revolve around the Vampires vs. VH conflict.


Isnt the point of this thread revolved around vampires vs VH???

there can only be a max of 4 vamps, so while it does cancel out the daily lynch, dracs palace also has jailor, vigi and VH, 3 TKs can easily cause 2 lynches and a night kill (or 2) to a 4 man team, so basicaly atm the vamps are losing 3 members in 2 days and gaining 1.

In AA chances are VH and vamps are getting killed by other evils, if not, vamps are biting every night anyway, because theyre hitiing immunes and coven/maf more often than not, or going for a confirmed townie that is getting targeted by evils on the same night, so their conversion rate is fairly limited anyway....
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Brilliand » Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:14 am

kyuss420 wrote:Isnt the point of this thread revolved around vampires vs VH???


It is, but that doesn't mean that's the only dynamic to be considered when deciding whether a proposed change would be good.

kyuss420 wrote:there can only be a max of 4 vamps, so while it does cancel out the daily lynch, dracs palace also has jailor, vigi and VH, 3 TKs can easily cause 2 lynches and a night kill (or 2) to a 4 man team, so basicaly atm the vamps are losing 3 members in 2 days and gaining 1.

In AA chances are VH and vamps are getting killed by other evils, if not, vamps are biting every night anyway, because theyre hitiing immunes and coven/maf more often than not, or going for a confirmed townie that is getting targeted by evils on the same night, so their conversion rate is fairly limited anyway....


Still, in both of those circumstances, that means Town has very little hope of winning if there are no TK left, and no hope at all if there are neither TK nor protective roles left, no matter how big a numerical advantage they have (or how good at scumreading). That seems quite bad to me... even though the early stages of the game might be improved by the vamps getting rapid conversions.

Town should always have the possibility of winning by lynches alone, if they have a respectable numbers advantage and a good estimate of who all the evils are.
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Re: Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:40 am

I'm not in favor of removing access to the Vampire chat entirely, but maybe the VH could be blocked out of the chat the night after staking a Vampire?
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Re: Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:23 am

That would make keeping track of the amount of vamps very easy for vampire hunters. I see no reason to keep that ability, since no one gains anything from it.
Vampires won't use the chat because they know they can be read. VH's won't get any information out of the chat. All vamps can do is send fake messages to the vh, which the vh isn't going to trust anyway. They can't share anything meaningful. It's a situation that makes the game less fun for both teams.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:23 am

Brilliand wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:Isnt the point of this thread revolved around vampires vs VH???


It is, but that doesn't mean that's the only dynamic to be considered when deciding whether a proposed change would be good.

kyuss420 wrote:there can only be a max of 4 vamps, so while it does cancel out the daily lynch, dracs palace also has jailor, vigi and VH, 3 TKs can easily cause 2 lynches and a night kill (or 2) to a 4 man team, so basicaly atm the vamps are losing 3 members in 2 days and gaining 1.

In AA chances are VH and vamps are getting killed by other evils, if not, vamps are biting every night anyway, because theyre hitiing immunes and coven/maf more often than not, or going for a confirmed townie that is getting targeted by evils on the same night, so their conversion rate is fairly limited anyway....


Still, in both of those circumstances, that means Town has very little hope of winning if there are no TK left, and no hope at all if there are neither TK nor protective roles left, no matter how big a numerical advantage they have (or how good at scumreading). That seems quite bad to me... even though the early stages of the game might be improved by the vamps getting rapid conversions.

Town should always have the possibility of winning by lynches alone, if they have a respectable numbers advantage and a good estimate of who all the evils are.


Maybe they could kill on non conversion nights? I mean town literally have 1 day/night phase to find maf/coven... they get 2 day phases and 1 night phase to find vamps in the same situation, which is intensified in dracs palace, where without a witch on the VH, theyre screwed.
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Re: About vampire hunter

Postby Brilliand » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:26 am

kyuss420 wrote:Maybe they could kill on non conversion nights? I mean town literally have 1 day/night phase to find maf/coven... they get 2 day phases and 1 night phase to find vamps in the same situation, which is intensified in dracs palace, where without a witch on the VH, theyre screwed.


In the current environment, the Town gets 2 day phases and 2 night phases in which to find 2 vamps, if they want to kill vamps at the same rate as vamps kill Town (since one of those kills will be canceled out by a convert). This puts Vampires at the same relative balance as Mafia: they kill Town at the same rate as the Town kills them off by (perfect) lynching.

Your proposal would put Vampires at an average rate of 2 kills per 1 vampire lost to (perfect) lynching, which seems a bit high, but it's at least defensible. (Coven gets close to that with 4 coven members and the Necronomicon.)

Granted the VH's nightly kill is just as good as the daily lynch at hunting Vampires, but I'm not willing to balance the vamps for the presence of a VH when it's possible for the VH to not exist (either it died early or didn't roll in All Any). Hence I'd like to deal with whatever problems Drac's Palace has with VH nerfs rather than Vampire buffs.
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Re: Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby alysslolinightray » Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:33 am

I'd really miss seeing "Vh sucks" "Vh u stupid" and "bite dis one". I don't think the reading chat ability needs removed. If you're talented enough to find something, good. I've never been in a vampire chat where anyone did more than try to confuse the vh or act weirdly.
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Re: Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby KAKERMAN23 » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:18 am

alysslolinightray wrote:I'd really miss seeing "Vh sucks" "Vh u stupid" and "bite dis one". I don't think the reading chat ability needs removed. If you're talented enough to find something, good. I've never been in a vampire chat where anyone did more than try to confuse the vh or act weirdly.


this... this is hardly a reason to keep vh seeing vampire chat
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Re: Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:23 pm

Support getting rid of VH reading vamp chat. I think this change alone wouldn't affect balance and doesn't need anything else to counterbalance it.
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Re: Remove VH's ability to read vampire chat

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:01 pm

alysslolinightray wrote:I've never been in a vampire chat where anyone did more than try to confuse the vh or act weirdly.

This is exactly the reason why the ability should be removed. Vamps can only fool around in their chat, instead of actually playing.
Besides, this makes the game really hard for newbie vamps, since experienced vamps can't give them any tips.
I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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