Lovers mode changes

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Lovers mode changes

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Aug 01, 2020 7:01 pm

I feel like the following two changes should be made to Lovers mode, to allow people to coordinate better with their Lovers.
1. Allow Lovers to immediately see each other's roles, similar to how the Mafia/Coven can immediately see what the Town Traitor's role is.
2. Allow Lovers to talk to each other at night, rather than having to talk exclusively via whispers and the public day chat.

What does everyone else think about this?
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:15 pm

Another great idea for Lovers:
Remove it from the game
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby cob709 » Sat Aug 01, 2020 9:31 pm

Not sure how the Lovers chat going to work with Mafia/Coven roles, but tbh these changes don't sound too bad.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Brilliand » Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:10 am

cob709 wrote:Not sure how the Lovers chat going to work with Mafia/Coven roles


Well, the maf and coven are each solo in Lovers, so the Lovers chat can probably just replace the factional chat.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Amiiko » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:30 am

Was thinking Lovers mode needed a slight buff for the Lovers. The night chat for lovers works well~

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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:56 am

wicked lovers idea; Better role list :o
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:03 am

Soulshade55r wrote:wicked lovers idea; Better role list :o

Don’t make half the list town. Literally can’t win as a single evil.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:32 am

TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:wicked lovers idea; Better role list :o

Don’t make half the list town. Literally can’t win as a single evil.

I'm thinking Arso may need to be removed from the list after the upcoming NK buffs, since it's already not too uncommon for half of the town to die in a single night. Maybe it should be replaced with Jugg? Having Jugg in the list might be a bad idea, though, since people might start throwing left and right to get the Jugg vs. Pest achievement.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Royee » Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:53 pm

/support
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby James2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:50 pm

Lovers don't always have identical wincons, so they shouldn't automatically share information.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:35 pm

James2 wrote:Lovers don't always have identical wincons, so they shouldn't automatically share information.

You seem to be forgetting that Lovers literally cannot betray each other without dying unless one of them is Pestilence.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby James2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 5:42 pm

Townies and pirates can win while dead.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:46 pm

I think most players honestly tell their lover their role D1, as it's very rare for that to turn out poorly.

James is right that there are some edge cases where it could turn out poorly (i.e. in a Town+Pestilence situation the townie would be motivated to warn the rest of the town about their lover), but I think some other things would have to change as well for automatically seeing your lover's role from the start to actually be a problem.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:55 pm

Brilliand wrote:I think most players honestly tell their lover their role D1, as it's very rare for that to turn out poorly.

James is right that there are some edge cases where it could turn out poorly (i.e. in a Town+Pestilence situation the townie would be motivated to warn the rest of the town about their lover), but I think some other things would have to change as well for automatically seeing your lover's role from the start to actually be a problem.

The fact that people usually already whisper their Lovers D1 is exactly why I figured people should automatically know their Lover's roles. This way people don't have to speed-whisper each other D1 and can just communicate at night.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby James2 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm

Brilliand wrote:I think most players honestly tell their lover their role D1, as it's very rare for that to turn out poorly.

James is right that there are some edge cases where it could turn out poorly (i.e. in a Town+Pestilence situation the townie would be motivated to warn the rest of the town about their lover), but I think some other things would have to change as well for automatically seeing your lover's role from the start to actually be a problem.


I agree that working together is almost always the optimal strategy for lovers.

My position on this is the same as any other mechanical anti-throwing measure. Good players shouldn't have their freedom of action limited to prevent others from playing sub-optimally.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:16 pm

Giving the Lovers a night chat is probably sufficient anyway. I don't see the automatic sharing of information adding much to the game, if the players have all night to tell each other their roles anyway (and there are only two of them, so it won't be much clutter).
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:06 am

Brilliand wrote:Giving the Lovers a night chat is probably sufficient anyway. I don't see the automatic sharing of information adding much to the game, if the players have all night to tell each other their roles anyway (and there are only two of them, so it won't be much clutter).


until youre SK, with an afk townie as your lover, so you start killing anyway.
or youre SK with an afk evil lover, so you dont kill anyone for 3 nights.

Ezradekezra wrote:
TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:wicked lovers idea; Better role list :o

Don’t make half the list town. Literally can’t win as a single evil.

I'm thinking Arso may need to be removed from the list after the upcoming NK buffs, since it's already not too uncommon for half of the town to die in a single night. Maybe it should be replaced with Jugg? Having Jugg in the list might be a bad idea, though, since people might start throwing left and right to get the Jugg vs. Pest achievement.


If anything needs removing, its sheriff...
Arso wouldnt make much of a difference, hes already getting 2 for 1 by dousing lovers....dousing psy n2 is also a risk, unless WW is known to be town sided.


TheFluffyWaffleV2 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:wicked lovers idea; Better role list :o

Don’t make half the list town. Literally can’t win as a single evil.


Try killing off the lovers first, and teaming with/not voting other solo evils til the time is right....
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Brilliand » Wed Aug 05, 2020 3:12 am

kyuss420 wrote:until youre SK, with an afk townie as your lover, so you start killing anyway.
or youre SK with an afk evil lover, so you dont kill anyone for 3 nights.


Balancing for AFKers strikes me as a lost cause.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 3:07 am

Brilliand wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:until youre SK, with an afk townie as your lover, so you start killing anyway.
or youre SK with an afk evil lover, so you dont kill anyone for 3 nights.


Balancing for AFKers strikes me as a lost cause.


Its not really balancing...its giving you a fair chance, instead of an auto loss cos some noob the system paired you with decided not to play....
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby James2 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 6:47 am

Throwers (which AFKs are a subset of) often cause auto-losses. The game shouldn't be balanced around them.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:10 pm

James2 wrote:Throwers (which AFKs are a subset of) often cause auto-losses. The game shouldn't be balanced around them.


How is it balancing anything? Its giving information you should already have.

I should copy these replies and put them in the ''buff medium cos leavers'' thread......
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:12 pm

Brilliand wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:until youre SK, with an afk townie as your lover, so you start killing anyway.
or youre SK with an afk evil lover, so you dont kill anyone for 3 nights.


Balancing for AFKers strikes me as a lost cause.


Yet you support a medium change, because people leave?
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Brilliand » Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:33 pm

kyuss420 wrote:Yet you support a medium change, because people leave?


Because Mediums can cross-confirm each other via dead townies, mostly.

Anyway, I would support a change to deal with AFKers if it only affected situations where there was an AFKer/gamethrower/other not-supposed-to-happen thing; but James pointed out that the change could affect people who are entirely present and making a deceptive play appropriate for the gamemode, and that argument takes higher weight imo. (Not that it seems like a big deal to me either way.)
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby James2 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 11:24 pm

kyuss420 wrote:
James2 wrote:Throwers (which AFKs are a subset of) often cause auto-losses. The game shouldn't be balanced around them.


How is it balancing anything? Its giving information you should already have.


There are legitimate lovers strategies that involve lying to or withholding information from your lover. So the role of a lover is not necessarily information you should already have.
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Re: Lovers mode changes

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:01 pm

James2 wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:
James2 wrote:Throwers (which AFKs are a subset of) often cause auto-losses. The game shouldn't be balanced around them.


How is it balancing anything? Its giving information you should already have.


There are legitimate lovers strategies that involve lying to or withholding information from your lover. So the role of a lover is not necessarily information you should already have.

There are? I've never heard of any such strategy. The only role that I can think of being able to betray their own lover is Pestilence, but I can't think of a reason that anyone would want to betray their Lover, who is essentially a free vote.
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