Psychic removal or update

[DrWho1399]

We need to remove or rework psychic because it has proven to be a role that too many people cannot understand. The game seems to give the stupid people Psychic because of a few reasons. 2 or 3 weeks ago, a guy with a username starting with Car had been psychic 1 game and got a Crusader hung day 3 because he didn't understand what "AT LEAST ONE" meant. He was told AT LEAST ONE means BOTH can be good and all 3 can be bad. He fought back saying that isn't what that means, and said Mayor was confirmed so Crusader claim had to be lying. Crusader hung cuz Mayor was too afraid to inno and be wrong, and the evils all wanted me dead anyways so with psychic, they got that.
ALL WEEK LONG I saw him as psychic at least 2 games a day and he never listened to 10 people telling him how psychic works. He kept saying we were all wrong. That it means 1 and 1. Not all can be ____.

TODAY, I ran into someone who already (3rd game in) I was psychic, posted day 2 with n1 results. Day 3 I posted n2 results. A SECOND psychic claim out of nowhere posts that I was on 2 of his visions (day 3, so 1 good vision and 1 bad vision) and stated I must be evil for appearing on 2 visions, never asking anyone else their roles from n1. We even had a matching name on n1 visions. I nearly got hung, but the town realized I had posted day 2 and day 3, whereas the second one only posted the visions day 3, so we all thought exe or jester. He was really psychic, dying a few nights later with no more vision leads, just instead he left after 3 of us tried telling him what AT LEAST 1 means but he kept saying he knows how psychic works and promptly left when we said no he apparently doesn't.

It is more than just these 2. Very rarely do I see an actual psychic who is good at it. Very few understand the AT LEAST 1, let alone understand that odd nights can prove evils 100% if 1 died as town, 1 claims vig, and the last one claiming medium. If the dead 1 is town and has a will that was legit (ie n1 death or they posted their will daily) then the vigi claim should shoot the medium claim and if the medium claim was a legit medium, that proves PSYCHIC claim as fake. Not that the vigi claim is evil when he shot.


So in conclusion, we need this role to either have a forced video walkthrough of how it works with a small quiz to allow people to play this role, remove it completely, or find a way to rework it so anyone who doesn't use their brain can easily understand how it works.

[Superalex11]

Yeah that's also gonna be a hard no from me. While I think tutorial/walkthrough type things could be a benefit, forcing them for any part of the game (except maybe ranked) would just be unnecessary. In my experience with game design, forced tutorials often just get ignored/skipped or otherwise rushed through by players who don't care (i.e. most of them). The players who don't know how psychic work are exactly these types of players, because otherwise they would have read the role cards, read the wiki, etc., so even if they were forced through a walkthrough it wouldn't help much.

A solution I think would be better (which I've proposed before) is to implement a matchmaking system to splits newbies from experienced players. The simplest way would be to find some low number of games played (something like 20-100) and set that as a threshold, where those below are grouped together as "newbies" and those above are grouped together as "experienced". This way, people who don't know how psychic (or any particular role) works won't be nearly as much of a burden on those who do, and can also learn in an environment more suited to themselves.

Now, as I have brought this idea up before, I know people are going to think "bUt ThAt wOn'T gUaRaNtEe It" and that "hurr durr people can have 1000+ games and still be dumb". Ok. Yes. There are some people for which this system fails. But for a strong majority of cases, I don't see how that's possible. It's similar to how elo is a good predictor in ranked - yes, people can have high elo and be bad, or low elo and be good. But for a majority of games, people with similar elo will be of similar skill on average.

[Flavorable]

The devs are strongly against the idea of removing roles from the game, and understandably so. Removing roles is removal of content, and Coven has always been paid content. Not a good idea.

Also, every role in the game has a certain level of difficulty and complexity to it. Any of the Coven roles require a bit of learning to understand how they work. Arsonist, Werewolf, Witch and Transporter are a few Classic TOS roles that require extra learning IMO. I know it took me quite a few times with Transporter when I was first starting out for me to figure out what the hell I was doing. But you didn't see me asking for a detailed explanation video and quiz on how it worked. That's what the role card is for. That's what the Wiki is for. And there are also folks who just learn best through Trial and Error.

Netflix consistently removes content and brings in new content.

I think the issue with Psychic is that it receives the same information each night, no matter which player is playing. With any other role except Spy and Retributionist, the power of the role correlates to the skill level of the player playing. A good Sheriff will get better results than a bad Sheriff. A good Doctor will save more lives than a bad Doctor. This does not hold true for Psychic.

This isn't Netflix, it's a game.

Regardless, it gets a definite /nosupport from me.
I don't think it'd be fair to remove a role because some people don't know how it works (yet). I enjoy the role, as do many of my friends.

It'd be like saying the Hypno should be removed, because some people might use the controlled message after N3, even though CL has necro and the hypnoed person immediately knows there's a hypno. These are just rookie mistakes, people will learn.

[kyuss420]

We need to remove or rework psychic because it has proven to be a role that too many people cannot understand. The game seems to give the stupid people Psychic because of a few reasons. 2 or 3 weeks ago, a guy with a username starting with Car had been psychic 1 game and got a Crusader hung day 3 because he didn't understand what "AT LEAST ONE" meant. He was told AT LEAST ONE means BOTH can be good and all 3 can be bad. He fought back saying that isn't what that means, and said Mayor was confirmed so Crusader claim had to be lying. Crusader hung cuz Mayor was too afraid to inno and be wrong, and the evils all wanted me dead anyways so with psychic, they got that.
ALL WEEK LONG I saw him as psychic at least 2 games a day and he never listened to 10 people telling him how psychic works. He kept saying we were all wrong. That it means 1 and 1. Not all can be ____.

TODAY, I ran into someone who already (3rd game in) I was psychic, posted day 2 with n1 results. Day 3 I posted n2 results. A SECOND psychic claim out of nowhere posts that I was on 2 of his visions (day 3, so 1 good vision and 1 bad vision) and stated I must be evil for appearing on 2 visions, never asking anyone else their roles from n1. We even had a matching name on n1 visions. I nearly got hung, but the town realized I had posted day 2 and day 3, whereas the second one only posted the visions day 3, so we all thought exe or jester. He was really psychic, dying a few nights later with no more vision leads, just instead he left after 3 of us tried telling him what AT LEAST 1 means but he kept saying he knows how psychic works and promptly left when we said no he apparently doesn't.

It is more than just these 2. Very rarely do I see an actual psychic who is good at it. Very few understand the AT LEAST 1, let alone understand that odd nights can prove evils 100% if 1 died as town, 1 claims vig, and the last one claiming medium. If the dead 1 is town and has a will that was legit (ie n1 death or they posted their will daily) then the vigi claim should shoot the medium claim and if the medium claim was a legit medium, that proves PSYCHIC claim as fake. Not that the vigi claim is evil when he shot.


So in conclusion, we need this role to either have a forced video walkthrough of how it works with a small quiz to allow people to play this role, remove it completely, or find a way to rework it so anyone who doesn't use their brain can easily understand how it works.

1) Noobs dont listen to how the mechanics of the role work, because they are always right, and everyone else is wrong (even if they lynch a crusader on a good vision with mayor.... ''obviously the game bugged, or the crusader was actually a disguiser, Im still right, and will keep playing accordingly and ignoring the guys who have 5000 games over me'')
2) Noobs think names appearing on multiple visions mean they are confirmed 100% evil. (Yes, Ive been town and appeared on 3 evil visions before)
3) with that logic, we should remove sheriff from coven, because I see multiple people every week who cant wrap their head around the Necronomicon making the coven member holding it, seem inno
4) As for vig, dead townie and medium claim on an evil vision, you are describing 2nd or 3rd level reasoning, which many players are still on the first level. Roles shouldnt be buffed/nerfed/removed based on how noobs use them.
5) With that logic, we should also remove escort. I see multiple noobs every VIP week, rando roleblocking n1 and hitting the psychic. When you reach that 4th level of ToS intelligence, you know not to RB n1. When you reach the 5th level, you start baiting the Coven Leader into sending you to Medusa n1.

[nicholasleejy]

we need this role to either have a forced video walkthrough of how it works with a small quiz to allow people to play this role, remove it completely, or find a way to rework it so anyone who doesn't use their brain can easily understand how it works.

Not too sure about the forced walkthrough, but /nosupport on the removal and reworking of this role.

I agree with kyuss420, there are some players who don't understand nor do they try to understand how the game works. Not only that, there are other roles which some players still do not understand, such as Sheriff cannot detect the Arsonist or PIrate, Veteran is a unique role, Transporter changes your target instead of transporting you to a target, etc.. Should all these be simplified or removed as well?

This game is about deception and strategy. There's going to be multiple levels of deception and mind play, which relies on your level of experience and understanding of the game in order to understand what's happening inside the game. Reworking it so that "anyone who doesn't use their brain can easily understand how it works" kind of defeats the purpose for a game which is about deception and requires you to actually use your brain. The people you have mentioned seem like they won't change even if you forced a tutorial on them, whereas anyone else will try to listen and perhaps check the wiki to understand better.

In short, the role isn't the problem, it's the players who are stubborn and refuse to accept everything other than their own opinion to be true.