Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Scootalootaloo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:24 am

I also want more pronoun choices!
Honestly, what part of the crimson reaper skin means I have to use male pronouns.

Also: IMPORTANT NOTE- there are no skins that use they/them pronouns. This means I am unlikely to continue playing the game until this changes.

I started my own thread in the feedback section before I noticed this thread. Link to mine at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=107377

It includes a poll and suggestions on implementation
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Scootalootaloo » Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:35 am

Okay so having read through this thread I want to just say, I've blocked everyone who doesn't support it. As some of those people said themselves, it's a small cosmetic change. Why would anyone oppose this?

The other thing I've noticed that could use an update is that almost all of the avatars (and, in fact, all of the free avatars) are caucasian. No avatars that represent people of color.

Both of those changes are on par with a change ToS has already made in its past; to add female characters to the list of free avatars. Because it's kind of a no-brainer to allow more people to choose/create avatars that they feel can represent them.

Noone objected to that change with "you're upset that you can't pick a woman, but you aren't really a sheriff either so why are you complaining about gender"
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby PikamanUltra » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:04 pm

elile wrote:Hello, I would like to request that a new feature is made to allow individuals to either pick the pronouns for their account or for the system to use gender neutral pronouns. Although the "Easy" choice is to just pick a skin based upon what you are, the issue arises when a androgynous or even masc-appearing character is "apparently as girl" as seen most heavily in the Uriel skin. Some players express distaste for spending so much money on a skin onto to find it calls them something unexpected or unliked, and may for various reasons not like being called one way or the other. This is not really a "trans" issue, although many may assume it to be such, as much as ensuring individuals are enjoying the game to the fullest and not feeling as if they may less satisfied with a purchase due to a misconception. A possible easy fix would be to just shift the androgynous to masc skins to have different pronouns, however this would possibly upset any current users who don't mind or even enjoy the current system. Though this is is in general a relatively small thing, it can persuade individuals to be more or less likely to purchase items in game based upon such a stupid reason, and could even be causing issues where people aren't buying certain more exclusive items simply based upon this.

Skin examples that I have documented by other players with problems with their pronouns:
Uriel
Crusader* (Apparently was a bug when appeared as a "girl" before, but some experienced distaste with the change.)
Potion Master
Poisoner

You may see a small example of some of the complaints in steam threads (https://steamcommunity.com/app/334230/d ... 603836453/), though most I've paid attention to were in-game. There is a former doccumented "player pronouns" thing in suggestions, however it neither looks into the issues of "mistaken" characters, as well as seems to be heavily derailed and focusing with interest on transgender experiences in the matter. However, 41% agreed they'd like customizations, and 6% said they'd want it to be customized or gender neutral inherently. There could be options such as "character specific/they/he/she" to ensure all parties could be satisfied. Thank you for hearing my proposal.


Uriel has always been a girl for me, also, I forgot the name of the skin, but in the demon counter-part skin, it has a unique death animation that shows it being killed by Uriel, in this scene, Uriel has a voice actor, and they are female.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby PikamanUltra » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:22 am

This is kinda unnessecery lol, if it offends you that much then don't play the game, this is on the lowest of priorities and really, if you're the persona of a male sherrif in game then why tf be offended when you're considered a male sherrif. Your pronoun only shows up for 5 seconds after you die and just giving you your skin's gender for that breif period is fine. The people saying this is non-inclusive and is a political issue need to toughen up. The people saying it would be nice, but shouldnt be priority I agree with. Please, the gender of your character, which is only on screen 5 seconds per game, and not at all if you live until the end, isn't that big of an issue
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Granislol » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:56 pm

nope, no support
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Jackparrot » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:59 am

Yemac wrote:/nosupport.

It's just a game. I think there are more pressing issues with the game itself and the community the devs have to focus on, than to put in a lot of work for a small minority that either bought something with the wrong pronoun, or don't enjoy the game as much because of said pronouns. (+ this is a political issue, not something a casual game should need to focus on)


I agree that there are more pressing issues, but this probably won't take a lot of effort to implement, and I bet that more people would feel more welcome, than those that strongly dislike this suggestion.

CrimsonKatana wrote:I think this would just create more harassment, when you have a different pronoun than the default and you know when someone that doesn't like it sees it, you know what could happen...

The people that would do this are probably already harrasing others. There will always be nasty people in this game, should BMG remove the mafioso skin because some racist trash will say innapropriate things?

kyuss420 wrote:does anyone really care about the fictional gender of a fictional character in a fiction based game? I mean, youre not really a sheriff either, so why doesnt being called sheriff in a fiction based game annoy you?


I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:28 pm

Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby PikamanUltra » Thu Apr 09, 2020 1:41 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.

I agree, now I'm an exe, not a psychic. But even I can see the potential of a slippery snowflake slope to SJW land, inclusion is good, and this should be added. But if 'making players feel welcome' is the devs priority the game will go no where.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Jackparrot » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:30 pm

PikamanUltra wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.

I agree, now I'm an exe, not a psychic. But even I can see the potential of a slippery snowflake slope to SJW land, inclusion is good, and this should be added. But if 'making players feel welcome' is the devs priority the game will go no where.


This change would be miniscule, and the vast majority of players probably wouldn't care. It would not take a lot of effort to implement, and I'm not saying this should be a big priority, unity port, major balance change are far more important of course.

Brilliand wrote:
Jackparrot wrote:I don't think many would stop playing entirely because the devs wouldn't implement this. However, some players would definitively feel more welcome, so why shouldn't the developers add this?


It would make some people feel more welcome, it would make some (probably a lot more) players feel less welcome. I'm not seeing the advantage.


How so?
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Brilliand » Thu Apr 09, 2020 8:22 pm

Jackparrot wrote:How so?


This has been answered several times over by other posts in this thread.

If you want me to put more effort into my answer, I think you should put more effort into your question.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:01 pm

Xlranet wrote:as i was also waiting to see your answer ill reask the question with more effort

this thread has had quite a lot of feedback with the suggestion, nearly all of them have been called out by other people for having flaws in... the main one is the devs focusing on other things, which is true but at the same time its a feature that literally wont hurt anyone if they chose not to go with it, assuming they implement a default gender pronoun that links to your skin, which would make sense to do

apart from that, its hard to find what you mean by it being unwelcoming to old players, so could you specify?


The people who would benefit from this change are a tiny minority, a minority that is not well-liked. Adding features seen by everyone that give that tiny minority more visibility is unwelcoming to everyone who doesn't want that minority to be given priority. That isn't all old players, but I think it's a much larger group than the people who would be welcomed by this feature.

I see every post in this thread pointing out that someone would be inconvenienced by this change as making the same point that I'm making here. Those people who would be inconvenienced are pretty much ordinary (hence probably representing a large group), and inconveniencing people is unwelcoming to them.

No significant number of people will leave over this issue either way, but if you want to talk about making the people who are already here feel good, I think the numbers favor not making the change.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Brilliand » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:00 pm

Xlranet wrote:if the changes are actually explained with how these changes wont affect anyone else


But they will affect anyone else. In any game that includes a player who used this feature, the other players will see the game display a pronoun that doesn't match the skin. You can't expect the person who set the pronoun to be the only person who cares about that.

It's a trivial thing, but if I look at it at the level of "some people will be happy", then it's equally true that "some people will be annoyed".

Xlranet wrote:most of the posts arent actually about that...


Sure. The ones that are, are.

Xlranet wrote:the other inconveniences you mention arent as clear as you are making them out to be, so can you give an example? because i see the people who feel like its unnecessary, not that it would be inconvenient for them to have this update given


To be clear, I'm not trying to make a strong case against this change. I'm trying to invalidate Jackparrot's point, by pointing out that the reverse is just as true.

If you've been paying any attention, you know that some people don't want this change. And that's all the evidence I need to prove the point I'm currently making. Some people don't want it, therefore some people will be unhappy if it's done. QED.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby Flavorable » Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:41 pm

As an FYI: I've spoken to the Devs about this and they are not considering this at this point in time.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby emslaya » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:02 am

Flavorable wrote:As an FYI: I've spoken to the Devs about this and they are not considering this at this point in time.


Thanks for speaking with the devs about this! It's nice to know that they know about the issue at least and even if it isn't a priority right now hopefully they will be able to do something about it in the future.

Tbh I still think the easiest fix would be to just get rid of all the gendered pronoun stuff during the instances ToS uses them in the chat and simply use basic They/Them pronouns instead. I'd imagine it'd be the least amount of work, solve the issue that bothers some players, and would go almost entirely unnoticed by other players.


I'm a girl IRL and I really don't like how the game acts like I'm a guy just because I want to use the Uriel/Beelzebub skins. It might sound weird but it's different than having another player accidentally use the wrong pronouns, (which is super common, I've done it to countless other players unintentionally as well.) Many video games often have a problem of seeming to cater more towards male players than female players, so this issue just really irks me a certain way even though I know it's unintentional.
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Re: Pick Pronouns or Gender Neutral

Postby emslaya » Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:50 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:
emslaya wrote:
Flavorable wrote:As an FYI: I've spoken to the Devs about this and they are not considering this at this point in time.


Thanks for speaking with the devs about this! It's nice to know that they know about the issue at least and even if it isn't a priority right now hopefully they will be able to do something about it in the future.

Tbh I still think the easiest fix would be to just get rid of all the gendered pronoun stuff during the instances ToS uses them in the chat and simply use basic They/Them pronouns instead. I'd imagine it'd be the least amount of work, solve the issue that bothers some players, and would go almost entirely unnoticed by other players.


I'm a girl IRL and I really don't like how the game acts like I'm a guy just because I want to use the Uriel/Beelzebub skins. It might sound weird but it's different than having another player accidentally use the wrong pronouns, (which is super common, I've done it to countless other players unintentionally as well.) Many video games often have a problem of seeming to cater more towards male players than female players, so this issue just really irks me a certain way even though I know it's unintentional.

I am a woman IRL and I personally would rather have she/her when I am playing than they/them, so I would take issue with this suggestion.

But as Flavor said, and as I have seen Naru state a few times, this isn't an issue the devs will be addressing anytime soon, if ever.


I mean, i'd also like to have the game use she/her pronouns when referring to me in the chat, but I recognize that the easiest programming fix to make would simply be using they/them pronouns for everything. Especially since it's already used in some places anyways, as others have pointed out in this thread.

I know that some HS English teachers were really weird about using they/them to refer to individuals for a while, but pretty much all major English dictionaries (like Merriam-Webster and Oxford) and big style guides (AP, APA, Chicago, MLA) accept the usage of the singular they nowadays. It's not just used for people who prefer those specific pronouns either, but often for just about anyone who you might not know the gender or pronouns of/etc. It's such an easy default that tbh I'm way more used to having tech/games simply refer to me using only they/them pronouns, which might be partially why it's so jarring to many players to have the game suddenly use gendered pronouns that don't match up when referring to us. It was a pretty odd design choice for the devs to make in the first place tbh.

Another option could simply be to use "<player name>"/"<player name>'s" wherever pronouns are used. Then the game wouldn't ever have to use pronouns at all and no one could argue over this lmao.


Also, just because the devs are obviously busy struggling with the unity port still and prioritizing that and I'm sure other major stuff atm doesn't mean they can't/won't tackle this at some point in the future. As I mentioned earlier, this topic has been brought up by MANY different individuals repeatedly over the years and I'd bet people are going to keep bringing it up on here/Reddit/Steam and anywhere else ToS discussion happens until the issue is resolved.
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