ATTN: Developers and Townies.

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ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby YecatsMailbox » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:26 pm

Hey devs. I've been playing Town of Salem for a few years now, logging in over 600 hours. It's my most played game on Steam. Great job on everything you've done so far.

I have an important suggestion based on a recent game. I'm cross-posting from a Facebook group where I posted this.

"I think we need to do better as a community.

Whenever I wanna play a relaxed game, I go into classic. It's typically a braindead game mode for someone who has logged hundreds of hours. Last night I had a really frustrating game there.

I died N1 to SK and asked for LO to be on me because I was spot 1 and investigator and no one else had asked for TP. So, the LO was on me and saw who killed me. They told the town (who didn't listen) and the following night the LO was killed.

I'm sure you know where this is going... SK was one of the last 4 standing (with GF, RT Doc who claimed on D2 and medium.)

Throughout the entire game, the dead LO kept telling medium to write in their will what they said, and be forceful in chat with the evidence, and that the LO said it, hoping to convince the rest that the other person was really SK. SK actually admitted D2 that he was SK because he thought there's irrefutable evidence since the LO was watching me. Most of the town thought he was jester, instead.

Look, none of this is what frustrated me...

What frustrated me was at the end of this game, the entire dead chat flamed the medium SO hard. They kept saying "I didn't know what to do" and so I asked them if they're new? They said yes, I'm new... After they said that I tried telling them that it's okay and they should watch videos to learn how things work, or read wikipedias, etc. but their next message said "I don't think I'll play again." and they immediately left. I tried friend requesting them on the game to let them know that the community is full of fucking degenerates like this from time to time, but I really think they aren't coming back. =\

It annoyed me because TOS can be really fun and mentally stimulating once you get the hang of it. I hate the idea that this person was immediately chased out by mob mentality calling them stupid and telling them to kill themselves, etc. It was disgusting behavior. Happened last night and it's still bothering me.

Just like Ranked games, why the hell isn't there an off-limits "beginners" mode? You can say that's what classic is for, but I mean strictly beginners - that way all of those assholes wouldn't be telling someone just learning to go kill themselves because they cost the town a game in, well, a fucking game.

I get it; It's the internet. People say hateful things, blah blah blah. I understand flaming a person when they *should* know better and don't, but flaming noobs just makes people look like dipshits. Everyone was new at some point. I'd ask why patience and understanding is so hard to have in this game but I've routinely seen the types of people that spawn up and I get these people have nothing better to do with their time than make others feel like shit. I just don't understand it.

TL;DR Stop being toxic to new players. If you're so much better, actually teach them how to play instead of name-calling and having a holier-than-thou pile of shit attitude. Wooow, you know all the rules in an online game. Bravo. You're so much better."


---
This post received overwhelming support.

It had comments saying how bad the toxicity was in the community, and while it should never be tolerated, I'm tired of excuses like "Well, if you wanna play seriously, don't go to classic." as if that's a solution to these players being hurtful instead of helpful. While I know developers cannot control the behavior of its patrons, I think there are some additional steps you can take besides the broken report-a-player system. It's important for the developers to also consider how new players who only get bullied are more likely to just give the game a negative review and refund it. There's already so much bad press on TOS review pages with the data breach and player toxicity. Let's make the reviews good again by fostering a supportive community with incentives towards said support.

Currently, you make it so after meeting requirements you can play ranked practice and then ranked. What about an automatic requirement that when you are brand new to the game, you're thrown in to a similar situation which forces you to play Beginners Mode: A mode that is strictly made for beginners? I'm sure there are plenty of ways to make such a mode so it would be good for beginners, and here I'd like to suggest two such ways - one that's more of a "first aid" solution and one that'll take longer to make but would be much more like a proper game tutorial.

The quick solution would be to make Beginners Mode completely identical to Classic, and have Classic require a certain number of games to be unlocked - perhaps 25 instead of the 50 required for Ranked Practice. (Is it 50? I don't remember.)
Since this is only another game mode and doesn't have any new mechanisms, I believe this should be easy to implement quickly, and while this doesn't seem like much of a change, the fact that this mode is intended for beginners already makes it valuable.

As for what I imagine for the proper solution, you can make this Beginners Mode be like Classic with the addition of "helpers" who are veterans of the game -- as spectators. The helper is identified by a star symbol near their name, letting players know this is a special neutral in the game that doesn't actually participate in the game. Players can whisper to the helper at night, during the day, whenever, and ask advice on how to proceed. To not disrupt the game engine, just remove one town role and replace it with the spectator, giving them no new abilities or anything you'd need to fundamentally design besides the ability to whisper at night. I think probably jester is the easiest role that could be removed which wouldn't break down the game's functionality for all players.

To make this appealing to the veteran player to actually want to help others, maybe you have a scorecard at the end of each game upon exit where new players can rate the helpfulness somehow, by leaving a star for the spectator if they were helpful. After however many games or hours, when the player has collected X amount of stars, their helper title is promoted to teacher, or to professor, etc. and they can trade in stars for perks ... like an old Salem style schoolhouse for a house, an apple or dictionary for a pet, a "teacher" skin with a diploma... etc.

I realize there's room for abuse even by those wanting to help... Reports against veteran players in that game mode should get a higher priority than other reports. A higher priority as in being reviewed first, but not necessarily given more credibility. It's important to root out people who are deliberately hurting new players quickly, since with many of them there are no second chances; they'll just stop playing the game immediately. Look at the TOS achievements on Steam... 84.1% of players have won their first game of TOS. Did the rest just abandon the game because they didn't understand it or because they were treated badly?

Just random ideas to bounce around. I know we cannot change the toxicity of the community and I know we cannot rely on report-a-player to remove them adequately. All that can really be controlled is the teaching and educating of newcomers, and maybe initiating rewards to players for "being nice to noobs."

Lastly, this is not a "character role suggestion" so please don't link to that area... It's a teach-and-train measure of a neutral party to benefit newcomers while remaining impartial and strictly in help-mode.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby Fluxling » Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:41 pm

I am 100% behind this.
It shames me to admit that I, too, have been hard on people in the past for making "stupid" mistakes simply because I didn't know they were new.
You see a lot of people who intentionally play poorly, throwing games and whatnot, so at some point you start assuming that's the case by default.
If I see them saying they're new when I've done that I always apologize and take a more instructive and positive tone, explaining why what they did was a bad idea and what they should have done.
If I were playing a "new player" mode, I would already know in advance that I'm bound to see such things happen and that they don't necessarily mean any harm.
It would disarm my frustration from seeing this even before it happens.
I'll gladly play that Beginners Mode, often.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:20 pm

If there were a begginner mode, I think experienced players shouldn't be able to play it unless they play as helpers. In this way they wouldn't abuse noobs by calling then "apes" or something like that (I saw people doing that in RP). Also, not everyone should be able to be a helper since helpers would have a super high potential for ruining games, because they can reveal any role they like. There should be a high amount of finished games required to be a helper. And even then, it would still be dangerous since right now anyone can gamethrow and get away with it, so this kind of toxic players wouldn't get banned.
And I don't think this gamemode should have less people, since this wouldn't help newbs to understand how the game works.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:17 am

meh...

In my experience over the last couple of months, the noobs really dont want to learn and are adamant that they are right in whatever they are doing or however they think the role mechanics work.

My favourite from last week, was in coven, where 2 different players were adamant that Coven Leader controlling someone to Medusa night 1 and night 2 didnt work (in that medusa didnt kill them) So we had a few games where town were granted the first 2 nights free from deaths, and the coven being dramatically overwhelmed by day 3.... but still, ''No, controlling to Medusa doesnt work early game''
I mean, someone in the dead chat even told the guy, that I had more CL wins, than his total coven games played, but after losing 5 matches (that I saw.. prolly add 50 to that) he still didnt want to know...

Its the same with role mechanics.... I say the same things 20 times over in different lobbies every week, let alone in game ''crusader grants defence to their target'' ''crusader protects from medusa and vet'' ''GA is considered good on psy visions'' ''The last coven is inno to sheriff'' ''Transporter doesnt change your target, it changes the target of people targeting you'' ''psychic doesnt visit, therefore they cant be stoned'' ''Medusa can be RBed, escort and pirate cant be stoned'' ''crus and doc can stop hex attacks, BG and traps cant''
All to which I get a reply, stating the wrong mechanic, and calling me dumb for not knowing the wrong mechanic......Or Im dumb ''cos it happened last match'' - no it didnt, the crus was RBed, which is why the guy was stoned, but you couldnt figure that part out....

with that said, yes it is a good suggestion, anything that helps newer players learn faster and not destroy games is a good idea, I mean, its a team game, but to beginners it seems very random and its like you're playing solo as town.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby YecatsMailbox » Fri Jan 24, 2020 6:48 am

You know what, this was just an idea to encourage the veterans to not be entire dipshits.

The simplest and easiest method for developers would be to have a symbol near a new player's name, who has not completed let's say 50 games of any mode. That way all players know this person is new, and if they see them doing something questionable or something that doesn't make sense, they can try to reason with them, remind them of the rules, etc., before doing things like flaming, reporting, harassing. Alternatively, anyone seen actively tormenting "new" players should be reported and have the reports looked at quickly to remove toxic jerks from the game.

DEVELOPERS, this is important. Harness your community of pretentious trolls.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:45 pm

The thing is that players can play more than 50 games and still be complete noobs: for example, if they only played classic games and then moved to some other gamemode, or if they left most of their games after getting a role they didn't like.
Marking players like that would also help people recognise each other and know who to target. People would probably go after the ones with more games played, and they couldn't be punished by it because it's impossible to prove they attacked that player because of his games played.
A better solution would be displaying the amount of games played in the endgame lobby, but that could still be used to harass other players, so I don't think it would be a good idea.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby Superalex11 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 7:23 pm

Even better yet... how about just implementing an actual match-making system where experienced players aren't in the same game as new ones.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby Flavorable » Sat Jan 25, 2020 2:51 am

Superalex11 wrote:Even better yet... how about just implementing an actual match-making system where experienced players aren't in the same game as new ones.

Cause people won't like waiting for who knows how long till someone with their gamecount will be around.

Heck, a couple of my friends are in the top 5 of games played, they'd have to wait for hours in Coven.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby Superalex11 » Sat Jan 25, 2020 3:39 am

Flavorable wrote:people won't like waiting for who knows how long till someone with their gamecount will be around.
Heck, a couple of my friends are in the top 5 of games played, they'd have to wait for hours in Coven.

The only implementation of my suggestion where people would realistically have to wait a long time is if the definitions of each tier of experience are extremely restrictive.
What I'm saying is that someone like me, with 1000+ games played, should not be grouped with several other players who each have <50 games played.

A simple example matchmaking system could group people by logarithmic sets based on games played (e.g. groupings of 0-50 games played, 51-500, 501-5000, then 5001+).
Sure, any matchmaking system will increase wait time, but imo an additional 30-60 seconds of waiting is absolutely worthwhile if it means I don't have to play with people who don't know that jesters don't come up sus to sheriffs.
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby OreoNyan » Sun Jan 26, 2020 1:39 am

I agree that this is a problem. I’m fairly new (started playing in November) and started with Classic, then Ranked Practice, then All Any, and now I mostly play Ranked with the occasional All Any game for fun. I had a pretty good experience in Classic and All Any, but was honestly scared to play Ranked at first because of some of the things that were said (not only to me but to other players) in Ranked Practice. Now that I’ve worked my way up to a higher elo, Ranked games are mostly civil... but the other day I FINALLY got to play my first Coven game (there’s never anyone in the lobby at the times I like to play) and had the same experience all over again.

Coven looks fun. But I don’t know how the mechanics work, and I don’t think it’s possible to get a GOOD understanding just from reading the wiki. I won’t be a good player unless I get to practice.

Of course, I don’t have to play coven. Classic modes are fun. But I am sure that people ARE just leaving the game without getting the chance to learn the mechanics or how fun it can be.

I think it would be nice to have a beginner mode, and I do think it would be nice if experienced players could also play as helpers... I’d probably prefer if the helpers were assigned roles and actually played too, rather than not having any abilities.... seeing the experienced players actually play is helpful, too. I think people who are interested should have to apply, and maybe the logs of their past few games could be reviewed to see if they’re suitable?

I also like the idea of having some kind of mark next to newer players’ names. People say they’re new as a tactic to explain why they didn’t follow meta etc, so a lot of people get lynched for saying they’re new (fair enough; a lot of them are lying evils). I’d also appreciate something for those new to Coven, even if they have a lot of classic games played... I’m diamond elo in classic by now but totally useless in Coven....
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Re: ATTN: Developers and Townies.

Postby EgyptFalcon » Thu Jan 30, 2020 12:09 am

Or just matchmake how you do on [redacted website]... you choose your elo range you're willing to play against. You choose your payoff between queue time and elo balance.
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