Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

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Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:50 pm

If only a Godfather and a Coven Leader are left, Coven Leader currently wins. This should be changed so Godfather wins. Typically, when it comes to stalemates among evils, the harder role gets the win. Both of them have equal defense and attack, but CL has the better ability, therefore it is harder to win as GF and he deserves the win.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:56 pm

The "harder" role is not determined by mere strength of ability, but by win rate. An Arsonist has a way more powerful ability than an Escort, but in a 1v1 the Arsonist is handed the win because Arsonist's win rate is far lower than Town's.

The issue here is that it's impossible to compare Coven and Mafia win rates in a balanced setting. All Any is inherently chaotic, and there are no other game modes in which the Mafia and Coven coexist that aren't also problematic (Custom is a crap-shoot, and Lovers doesn't have a Coven Leader anyway). Even if there was such a mode, the small playerbase the DLC has means there's no room for a meta to grow. So no one really knows for sure whether it's harder to win as a Coven Leader or a Godfather.

EDIT: If you asked me what I thought about whether CL or GF was the harder role, I'd be able to produce an answer, but it'd be based only on my own experiences and contain some factors inherent in the game mode that most commonly sees both roles in it rather than the roles themselves.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Brilliand » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:29 pm

IMO the Coven Leader is so overpowered relative to the Godfather that this change wouldn't be enough.

In non-coven Ranked Practice, a witch can dominate either the Mafia or the Neutral Killing, forcing one of them to lose so that the other can win. In the same way, a Coven Leader in All Any can dominate either the Mafia or a Neutral Killing, ensuring that that faction has to rely on the support of the Town to have any chance of winning.

Actually... the Godfather is in the same position as the Serial Killer, relative to the Coven Leader. So let's compare the CL with the SK in the Coven Ranked Practice list. If the CL finds the SK, she can then dominate the SK each night, making it impossible for the SK to perform his regular function of killing whichever faction is ahead; instead, he becomes effectively a Town member with no night ability. The faction leader of a 4-member faction should not have this sort of power over the solo SK.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:29 pm

Brilliand wrote:IMO the Coven Leader is so overpowered relative to the Godfather that this change wouldn't be enough.

In non-coven Ranked Practice, a witch can dominate either the Mafia or the Neutral Killing, forcing one of them to lose so that the other can win. In the same way, a Coven Leader in All Any can dominate either the Mafia or a Neutral Killing, ensuring that that faction has to rely on the support of the Town to have any chance of winning.

Actually... the Godfather is in the same position as the Serial Killer, relative to the Coven Leader. So let's compare the CL with the SK in the Coven Ranked Practice list. If the CL finds the SK, she can then dominate the SK each night, making it impossible for the SK to perform his regular function of killing whichever faction is ahead; instead, he becomes effectively a Town member with no night ability. The faction leader of a 4-member faction should not have this sort of power over the solo SK.

Have SK, WW kill the CL the second time they are controlled. Not sure how GF could counter that though
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:05 am

Lame idea, lets do the math

lets look at 1v1v1 - CL v GF v NK. GF cant vote or he loses, CL has to vote the NK or he loses, NK can vote anyone and win.
CL v GF v SK - mexican stand off, as stated above (GF and CL reversed, if a change was made)
CL v GF v WW - CL can use WW to kill the GF, then loses
CL v GF v Arso - CL can douse GF with arso - then loses
Cl v GF v Pest/Jugg - CL and GF both lose

BUT, if the change was made, when we look at town scenarios:
CL v GF v escort - CL has no incentive to kill the escort, escort RBs the GF dragging the game 3-4 nights to a draw, escort loses if they ever vote
CL v GF v trans - CL has no incentive to do anything, trans keeps transporting himself with GF - GF hits himself or the CL - game drags out 3-4 nights to a draw, trans loses if they ever vote

both cases CL has to push on the GF and town has to be dumb enough to vote off the GF for the CL to win, town is losing in both cases, but can drag it out to draw (which defeats the purpose)
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:29 am

Brilliand wrote:Actually... the Godfather is in the same position as the Serial Killer, relative to the Coven Leader. So let's compare the CL with the SK in the Coven Ranked Practice list. If the CL finds the SK, she can then dominate the SK each night, making it impossible for the SK to perform his regular function of killing whichever faction is ahead; instead, he becomes effectively a Town member with no night ability. The faction leader of a 4-member faction should not have this sort of power over the solo SK.


firstly, the coven would have to find the SK
while its not a stupid strategy, as SK wont be killing any coven, they are more likely to be controlled into a trap on the psy, or into the vet, or into a BG on the jailor, than remain at the CLs beck and call, let alone the death note reading ''I am being controlled by CL'' or the fact there are only SK kills and no CL drains or dusa stones.
And while its maintaining covens numbers (except for psy visions/TI discoveries etc) Its also maintaining towns numbers with 1 less kill per night, kinda useless early game, especially in a spy game, but OP late game
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Brilliand » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:27 pm

kyuss420 wrote:while its not a stupid strategy, as SK wont be killing any coven, they are more likely to be controlled into a trap on the psy, or into the vet, or into a BG on the jailor, than remain at the CLs beck and call


Oh right, because the CL can outright kill the NK in most games.

Another thing that the Godfather can't do.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:43 pm

I mean the Mafia and the Coven work differently, Mafia works better in combination with their members where Coven are strong alone (but stronger in a group, somewhat overpowered lol)

I feel Coven needs to have some kind of thing which Mafia does better. Not sure what, so yep
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Brilliand » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:05 pm

Removing the Necronomicon's Night Immunity feature would balance out the coven vs. Maf/SK interaction well enough (in the form of "whoever finds the other first wins" rather than mutual immunity, but that's still balance). I doubt the Vig being able to kill the CL would make much difference.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:09 pm

Brilliand wrote:Removing the Necronomicon's Night Immunity feature would balance out the coven vs. Maf/SK interaction well enough (in the form of "whoever finds the other first wins" rather than mutual immunity, but that's still balance). I doubt the Vig being able to kill the CL would make much difference.

I reckon CL should keep their one-hit shield but yeah, Coven having no defense would work nicely, means Mafia needs to take out a giant threat and can 'easily' do it without relying on Town.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:29 am

again

BUT, if the change was made, when we look at town scenarios:
CL v GF v escort - CL has no incentive to kill the escort, escort RBs the GF dragging the game 3-4 nights to a draw, escort loses if they ever vote
CL v GF v trans - CL has no incentive to do anything, trans keeps transporting himself with GF - GF hits himself or the CL - game drags out 3-4 nights to a draw, trans loses if they ever vote

You guys seriously got nothing better to do than complain about the balance of competing factions in All/Any? (The 1 place where these factions are ever competing together)
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:44 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Removing the Necronomicon's Night Immunity feature would balance out the coven vs. Maf/SK interaction well enough (in the form of "whoever finds the other first wins" rather than mutual immunity, but that's still balance). I doubt the Vig being able to kill the CL would make much difference.

I reckon CL should keep their one-hit shield but yeah, Coven having no defense would work nicely, means Mafia needs to take out a giant threat and can 'easily' do it without relying on Town.


Yea, lets remove GodFathers defence while we're at it, in case only hex master and necromancer spawn in a game and coven have to rely on town to take out a threat -_-
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:46 am

kyuss420 wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Removing the Necronomicon's Night Immunity feature would balance out the coven vs. Maf/SK interaction well enough (in the form of "whoever finds the other first wins" rather than mutual immunity, but that's still balance). I doubt the Vig being able to kill the CL would make much difference.

I reckon CL should keep their one-hit shield but yeah, Coven having no defense would work nicely, means Mafia needs to take out a giant threat and can 'easily' do it without relying on Town.


Yea, lets remove GodFathers defence while we're at it, in case only hex master and necromancer spawn in a game and coven have to rely on town to take out a threat -_-


Huh? Yeah reading a book clearly protects someone against a Mafia attack. Lmao jokes aside, Coven are incredibly offensive and have a PM to heal, like lord jaysus
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:36 am

yea but they dont always spawn together.. and PM can only use a heal pot every 3rd night and with a psy alive, they are rarely alive together long enough to use a heal pot twice

Also you forget VIP mode, where the CL has to break TP chains, the night immunity making the CL crusader immune. Taking away CLs basic defence eliminates easily half (if not all) of the strategies CL can utilise on a crus on crus game. The only way to break a crus on crus chain, without immunity, is to have a PM alive with a heal pot ready and a poisoner alive (and spawned in game to start with) and the CL alive. Or, have a Necromancer in game with a dead vigi by the time the heal pot is ready. Sure you could send 1 of the crus to themselves while the PM heals, but if the crus hits the CL instead of the other crus, then you have to wait 3 nights for the kill pot to be ready again, and seeing as everyone has claimed by day 3, there isnt that kinda time.

If you think coven is too overpowered, maybe you should jump into vip mode for a day, and see how well they do....
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby JacksonVirgo » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:48 am

kyuss420 wrote:yea but they dont always spawn together.. and PM can only use a heal pot every 3rd night and with a psy alive, they are rarely alive together long enough to use a heal pot twice

Also you forget VIP mode, where the CL has to break TP chains, the night immunity making the CL crusader immune. Taking away CLs basic defence eliminates easily half (if not all) of the strategies CL can utilise on a crus on crus game. The only way to break a crus on crus chain, without immunity, is to have a PM alive with a heal pot ready and a poisoner alive (and spawned in game to start with) and the CL alive. Or, have a Necromancer in game with a dead vigi by the time the heal pot is ready. Sure you could send 1 of the crus to themselves while the PM heals, but if the crus hits the CL instead of the other crus, then you have to wait 3 nights for the kill pot to be ready again, and seeing as everyone has claimed by day 3, there isnt that kinda time.

If you think coven is too overpowered, maybe you should jump into vip mode for a day, and see how well they do....

I've played VIP, a lot actually. What I am saying is that Coven is OP against Mafia, not against Town or any shiz like that. If it was Mafia vs Coven, Coven would wipe the floor with Mafia.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:32 am

It would, thats why its a seperate DLC with extra town/NK/maf roles to balance/spread out the OPness. No ones buying coven because they wanna play maf roles...
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Google » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:30 am

Why is this an argument
Coven is easier
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby PleaseReadSiege » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:29 am

Google wrote:Why is this an argument
Coven is easier

So GF should win against CL is what you're saying?
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Google » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:30 am

PleaseReadSiege wrote:
Google wrote:Why is this an argument
Coven is easier

So GF should win against CL is what you're saying?

Yup
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:31 am

Google wrote:
PleaseReadSiege wrote:
Google wrote:Why is this an argument
Coven is easier

So GF should win against CL is what you're saying?

Yup


But as I pointed out, (and will again)

BUT, if the change was made, when we look at town scenarios:
CL v GF v escort - CL has no incentive to kill the escort, escort RBs the GF dragging the game 3-4 nights to a draw, escort loses if they ever vote
CL v GF v trans - CL has no incentive to do anything, trans keeps transporting himself with GF - GF hits himself or the CL - game drags out 3-4 nights to a draw, trans loses if they ever vote


The change would cause more draws than it would avoid.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Brilliand » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:11 am

In other words, since the CL is so more powerful than the GF, the CL has to beat the GF in draw resolution. It's sort of like the reason Godfather beats Transporter, but Mafioso loses to Transporter. The more powerful role wins.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Google » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:15 am

Brilliand wrote:In other words, since the CL is so more powerful than the GF, the CL has to beat the GF in draw resolution. It's sort of like the reason Godfather beats Transporter, but Mafioso loses to Transporter. The more powerful role wins.

its supposed to be because who is more worthy of win..
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Brilliand » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:18 pm

Google wrote:
Brilliand wrote:In other words, since the CL is so more powerful than the GF, the CL has to beat the GF in draw resolution. It's sort of like the reason Godfather beats Transporter, but Mafioso loses to Transporter. The more powerful role wins.

its supposed to be because who is more worthy of win..


Kyuss makes a good point; "who deserves it" isn't the only concern. Making sure there are no perverse incentives is possibly a bigger deal.
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Google » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:11 am

Brilliand wrote:
Google wrote:
Brilliand wrote:In other words, since the CL is so more powerful than the GF, the CL has to beat the GF in draw resolution. It's sort of like the reason Godfather beats Transporter, but Mafioso loses to Transporter. The more powerful role wins.

its supposed to be because who is more worthy of win..


Kyuss makes a good point; "who deserves it" isn't the only concern. Making sure there are no perverse incentives is possibly a bigger deal.

making the game more "realistic" doesnt really matter due to the game being
well
yeah
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Re: Change GF-CL stalemate so GF wins

Postby Brilliand » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:59 pm

Google wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Kyuss makes a good point; "who deserves it" isn't the only concern. Making sure there are no perverse incentives is possibly a bigger deal.

making the game more "realistic" doesnt really matter due to the game being
well
yeah


"No perverse incentives" is separate from realism.
Last edited by Brilliand on Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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