False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

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False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:39 am

I just looked like an idiot because of the following scenario:

I was jailor, and I jailed someone N1 who didn't respond. The next day I managed to anonymously pressed them. They still refused to claim. As a result, they were lynched. That was medium.

I then jail someone N2. This person claims med. I'm like 'yeah right', but they convince me that they are RT med.

D4** (not 3), and one vigilante shoots another. Clearly, they were not RT med, if vigilante just shot themselves.

N4** (not 3), I jail this mysterious 'rt med', and execute them. They tell me 'wait and see'. Turns out they were the vigilante who shot the og vigilante.

To summarise: two people, equally not interested in playing right, caused me to lose my abilities early on.


My proposal: make it so that if a town member false claims to jailor, then its gamethrowing. My reasoning behind this is that town has literally no reason to lie to jailor. In fact, its confusing as shit and just messes things up for the rest of the game.

Just a rage-fueled idea.
Last edited by PterryDactyl on Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby Tailslover13 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:13 pm

This has kinda come up before in the "Fake Claiming As Town Is Gamethrowing" thread. People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is. And it's pretty much for reasons just like this. I 100% support this. If you are a piece of shit and you fake a role while being town, and then whine about being shot or executed, you deserve to be reported for gamethrowing. The point is to hang and kill the evildoers, not mislead your own teammates.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:41 pm

Tailslover13 wrote:This has kinda come up before in the "Fake Claiming As Town Is Gamethrowing" thread. People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is. And it's pretty much for reasons just like this.


This isn't a reason that fakeclaiming as town is throwing in general; it's a special case in which fakeclaiming as town is throwing, while it may not be in other cases.

Ideally, you want to claim truthfully to your teammates, and fakeclaim to the other teams (if you're Town, that means claim truthfully to Town and lie to the Mafia). Usually there's a trade-off there (because you don't know which team you're talking to or you're definitely talking to both at once), but when you're a townie in jail (or a maf in the mafia chat), it's completely one-sided.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:20 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Tailslover13 wrote:This has kinda come up before in the "Fake Claiming As Town Is Gamethrowing" thread. People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is. And it's pretty much for reasons just like this.


This isn't a reason that fakeclaiming as town is throwing in general; it's a special case in which fakeclaiming as town is throwing, while it may not be in other cases.

Ideally, you want to claim truthfully to your teammates, and fakeclaim to the other teams (if you're Town, that means claim truthfully to Town and lie to the Mafia). Usually there's a trade-off there (because you don't know which team you're talking to or you're definitely talking to both at once), but when you're a townie in jail (or a maf in the mafia chat), it's completely one-sided.



Exactly! I would never just casually be like 'hi im jailor' or 'hi im doc'. This is a special circumstance that should be taken seriously.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:22 pm

Tailslover13 wrote:People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is


I also just wanna be upfront and say I didn't make this thread to bash players for having differing opinions. As I said previously, this has to do with a special circumstance, and I can see where not admitting to certain roles publicly is for the best.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby KatiyaKramer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:31 pm

Tailslover13 wrote:This has kinda come up before in the "Fake Claiming As Town Is Gamethrowing" thread. People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is. And it's pretty much for reasons just like this. I 100% support this. If you are a piece of shit and you fake a role while being town, and then whine about being shot or executed, you deserve to be reported for gamethrowing. The point is to hang and kill the evildoers, not mislead your own teammates.

Well even Swamp Rabbit agreed that there was no excuse not to admit your role to the jailor, which is what this thread addresses, not fake claiming entirely.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:33 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:
Tailslover13 wrote:This has kinda come up before in the "Fake Claiming As Town Is Gamethrowing" thread. People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is. And it's pretty much for reasons just like this. I 100% support this. If you are a piece of shit and you fake a role while being town, and then whine about being shot or executed, you deserve to be reported for gamethrowing. The point is to hang and kill the evildoers, not mislead your own teammates.

Well even Swamp Rabbit agreed that there was no excuse not to admit your role to the jailor, which is what this thread addresses, not fake claiming entirely.




I really don't wanna turn this into a "bash forum members I don't like" thread lol I'm sorry. So let's just not argue about Swamp Rabbit.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:09 pm

Cataracts wrote:I then jail someone N2. This person claims med. I'm like 'yeah right', but they convince me that they are RT med.

D3, and one vigilante shoots another. Clearly, they were not RT med, if vigilante just shot themselves.

N3, I jail this mysterious 'rt med', and execute them. They tell me 'wait and see'. Turns out they were the vigilante who shot the og vigilante.


Hang on, I just realized this isn't possible.

A Vigilante can't shoot from in jail, and you had this person jailed the night the Vigilante shot, true?

The next most likely interpretation is that the guy lying to the Jailor was merely an RT vig, and the og vigilante shot himself due to witch or transporter.

-----

Anyway, on topic, I feel hesitant to pronounce this behavior as "definitely gamethrowing", and I think I can verbalize why:

What if the Jailor is an idiot? Okay, clearly you're not an idiot, and anyway this guy didn't have enough time to figure out whether you were an idiot in 3 nights... but depending on the gamemode, he might be used to playing with other Jailors who have the counterproductive habit of always executing Vigilante claims, and further of always executing people who change their claim, but lack any such habit of always executing consistent Medium claims.

"Don't lie to the Jailor" only applies if you trust the Jailor to do a better job of helping his team when presented with the truth. If you think the Jailor is going to be making mindless knee-jerk reactions to everything, then your aim becomes to trick the Jailor into causing the town to win.

This sort of mindset is horribly paranoid and not actually a good strategy at all, but it's the sort of mistake I could see someone making without having any actual intent to harm their team's winning chances.

So the question of "should lying to the Jailor as a townie always be treated as gamethrowing by the rules?" becomes "do we want to punish people for using horribly misguided strategies that seemed like a good idea at the time?".

(Which, incidentally, is exactly the same question as for the Veteran calling tp/lo and alerting N1. What's the current policy on that again?)
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby SwampRabbit » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:45 pm

Tailslover13 wrote:This has kinda come up before in the "Fake Claiming As Town Is Gamethrowing" thread. People like the Swamp Rabbit brag about how fake-claiming as town is 'smart' and not throwing, but in reality it is. And it's pretty much for reasons just like this. I 100% support this. If you are a piece of shit and you fake a role while being town, and then whine about being shot or executed, you deserve to be reported for gamethrowing. The point is to hang and kill the evildoers, not mislead your own teammates.



OMFG, is it even possible you could more grossly misrepresent what I said about towns fake claiming? And as Katiya pointed out above, I specifically said there is no legitimate reason for a jailed town player to lie to jailor while they are in jail. So everything you said about me on a thread I was not even involved in is 100% false....and what legitimate reason could you have for naming me in this thread at all? If I was a guy I know exactly what kind of envy it is that cause you to do this kind of trash, but I am not a guy, so who knows what your insecurity stems from.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby SwampRabbit » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:57 pm

Brilliand wrote:Anyway, on topic, I feel hesitant to pronounce this behavior as "definitely gamethrowing", and I think I can verbalize why:

What if the Jailor is an idiot? Okay, clearly you're not an idiot, and anyway this guy didn't have enough time to figure out whether you were an idiot in 3 nights... but depending on the gamemode, he might be used to playing with other Jailors who have the counterproductive habit of always executing Vigilante claims, and further of always executing people who change their claim, but lack any such habit of always executing consistent Medium claims.

"Don't lie to the Jailor" only applies if you trust the Jailor to do a better job of helping his team when presented with the truth. If you think the Jailor is going to be making mindless knee-jerk reactions to everything, then your aim becomes to trick the Jailor into causing the town to win.

This sort of mindset is horribly paranoid and not actually a good strategy at all, but it's the sort of mistake I could see someone making without having any actual intent to harm their team's winning chances.

So the question of "should lying to the Jailor as a townie always be treated as gamethrowing by the rules?" becomes "do we want to punish people for using horribly misguided strategies that seemed like a good idea at the time?".

(Which, incidentally, is exactly the same question as for the Veteran calling tp/lo and alerting N1. What's the current policy on that again?)


This is a very valid point. Most town losses (in ranked anyway) stem from idiot jailors. And if the town is better served by lying to an idiot to trick him/her into doing the correct thing, then so be it. The situation described by the OP would not be one of the circumstances, but I can see situations when lying to jailor is best for the town (based on jailor's ineptitude). There are actually a handful of players that ranked towns routinely ignore when the player is jailor or mayor because they are so incredibly bad at reading people and seeing whose claims do not add up.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:57 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Cataracts wrote:I then jail someone N2. This person claims med. I'm like 'yeah right', but they convince me that they are RT med.

D3, and one vigilante shoots another. Clearly, they were not RT med, if vigilante just shot themselves.

N3, I jail this mysterious 'rt med', and execute them. They tell me 'wait and see'. Turns out they were the vigilante who shot the og vigilante.


Hang on, I just realized this isn't possible.

A Vigilante can't shoot from in jail, and you had this person jailed the night the Vigilante shot, true?

The next most likely interpretation is that the guy lying to the Jailor was merely an RT vig, and the og vigilante shot himself due to witch or transporter.

-----

Anyway, on topic, I feel hesitant to pronounce this behavior as "definitely gamethrowing", and I think I can verbalize why:

What if the Jailor is an idiot? Okay, clearly you're not an idiot, and anyway this guy didn't have enough time to figure out whether you were an idiot in 3 nights... but depending on the gamemode, he might be used to playing with other Jailors who have the counterproductive habit of always executing Vigilante claims, and further of always executing people who change their claim, but lack any such habit of always executing consistent Medium claims.

"Don't lie to the Jailor" only applies if you trust the Jailor to do a better job of helping his team when presented with the truth. If you think the Jailor is going to be making mindless knee-jerk reactions to everything, then your aim becomes to trick the Jailor into causing the town to win.

This sort of mindset is horribly paranoid and not actually a good strategy at all, but it's the sort of mistake I could see someone making without having any actual intent to harm their team's winning chances.

So the question of "should lying to the Jailor as a townie always be treated as gamethrowing by the rules?" becomes "do we want to punish people for using horribly misguided strategies that seemed like a good idea at the time?".

(Which, incidentally, is exactly the same question as for the Veteran calling tp/lo and alerting N1. What's the current policy on that again?)




1. This was in classic mode.

2. Vig had died the night previous, and the rt vig claimed RT MEDIUM. From in jail, the real rt vig shot someone else. Clearly, that means the person in jail is not rt medium.

3. They never claimed vig. Not once. Kept to the claim of medium. They just told me to 'wait and see that I was making a mistake'.


This wasn't just 'bad stratedgy' or 'misguided'. This was literally lying for the sake of being a dick.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby JacksonVirgo » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:01 pm

I will just put my opinion simply. From where I see it, gamethrowing can be anything in which the player purposefully destroys their teams chances of winning whether that be successfully or not. If Town feels like they actively need to lie to the Jailor in order to win, no matter the circumstance it is not gamethrowing. However, if Town lies to the Jailor just for lying sake etc, then it is most definitely gamethrowing.

There is nothing else that really needs to be said from where I stand.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:04 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:
Brilliand wrote:Anyway, on topic, I feel hesitant to pronounce this behavior as "definitely gamethrowing", and I think I can verbalize why:

What if the Jailor is an idiot? Okay, clearly you're not an idiot, and anyway this guy didn't have enough time to figure out whether you were an idiot in 3 nights... but depending on the gamemode, he might be used to playing with other Jailors who have the counterproductive habit of always executing Vigilante claims, and further of always executing people who change their claim, but lack any such habit of always executing consistent Medium claims.

"Don't lie to the Jailor" only applies if you trust the Jailor to do a better job of helping his team when presented with the truth. If you think the Jailor is going to be making mindless knee-jerk reactions to everything, then your aim becomes to trick the Jailor into causing the town to win.

This sort of mindset is horribly paranoid and not actually a good strategy at all, but it's the sort of mistake I could see someone making without having any actual intent to harm their team's winning chances.

So the question of "should lying to the Jailor as a townie always be treated as gamethrowing by the rules?" becomes "do we want to punish people for using horribly misguided strategies that seemed like a good idea at the time?".

(Which, incidentally, is exactly the same question as for the Veteran calling tp/lo and alerting N1. What's the current policy on that again?)


This is a very valid point. Most town losses (in ranked anyway) stem from idiot jailors. And if the town is better served by lying to an idiot to trick him/her into doing the correct thing, then so be it. The situation described by the OP would not be one of the circumstances, but I can see situations when lying to jailor is best for the town (based on jailor's ineptitude). There are actually a handful of players that ranked towns routinely ignore when the player is jailor or mayor because they are so incredibly bad at reading people and seeing whose claims do not add up.



I definitely get the "idiot jailors" point, but at the same time I wish there was a way for jailors to report the instance like I described. I feel like I'm pretty good as a jailor, so there's no real reason why I would have executed this person, had they claimed correctly. Really if they said vig before, i would have been like "ok maybe rt"...yannow?'
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:57 pm

Cataracts wrote:2. Vig had died the night previous, and the rt vig claimed RT MEDIUM. From in jail, the real rt vig shot someone else. Clearly, that means the person in jail is not rt medium.


Yes, clearly the person in jail was not RT anything. What was he really? The OP says that the person you executed turned out to be Vigilante, but that isn't possible (in Classic mode) if one vig shot another vig while he was in jail (since a vig in jail can't shoot). It also isn't possible if the "vig shot vig" happened before you jailed him, since you jailed him 2 nights in a row before finally executing (giving him ample time to die of guilt if he were Vig).
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:00 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Cataracts wrote:2. Vig had died the night previous, and the rt vig claimed RT MEDIUM. From in jail, the real rt vig shot someone else. Clearly, that means the person in jail is not rt medium.


Yes, clearly the person in jail was not RT anything. What was he really? The OP says that the person you executed turned out to be Vigilante, but that isn't possible (in Classic mode) if one vig shot another vig while he was in jail (since a vig in jail can't shoot). It also isn't possible if the "vig shot vig" happened before you jailed him, since you jailed him 2 nights in a row before finally executing (giving him ample time to die of guilt if he were Vig).



I'm sorry, I do see the error there. I Jailed them N2, left it N3, then jailed N4 to execute. My bad for the confusion.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:29 am

So knowing a typical jailor will put your name and role claim in their will, then claiming an RT slot like medium, instead of RT vig, on n2, would make you the least important target to mafia, should the jailor die before you.... making it a viable strategy

However, not claiming, as a vigi dieing of guilt would be reportable as gamethrowing
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:07 am

kyuss420 wrote:So knowing a typical jailor will put your name and role claim in their will, then claiming an RT slot like medium, instead of RT vig, on n2, would make you the least important target to mafia, should the jailor die before you.... making it a viable strategy

However, not claiming, as a vigi dieing of guilt would be reportable as gamethrowing




That's my issue. Its not 'i dont want it in the will' or something like that. It was 'look and see, you'll look like an ass if you dare execute me, you idiot'.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby BlastingOff » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:05 pm

kyuss420 wrote:So knowing a typical jailor will put your name and role claim in their will, then claiming an RT slot like medium, instead of RT vig, on n2, would make you the least important target to mafia, should the jailor die before you.... making it a viable strategy

However, not claiming, as a vigi dieing of guilt would be reportable as gamethrowing


I mean, you could also ask Jailor to put you as something different? I have done this sometimes when I am Vet, I ask him to put me as Vigi to lure Consorts and Witches. I would say a Jailor that is an idiot and not listen to this is equally dumb enough to not list you anyways, so
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Tue Sep 17, 2019 5:54 pm

BlastingOff wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:So knowing a typical jailor will put your name and role claim in their will, then claiming an RT slot like medium, instead of RT vig, on n2, would make you the least important target to mafia, should the jailor die before you.... making it a viable strategy

However, not claiming, as a vigi dieing of guilt would be reportable as gamethrowing


I mean, you could also ask Jailor to put you as something different? I have done this sometimes when I am Vet, I ask him to put me as Vigi to lure Consorts and Witches. I would say a Jailor that is an idiot and not listen to this is equally dumb enough to not list you anyways, so


Yeah idk there's just so many better ways to act idk.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby lshz » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:59 am

Cataracts wrote:I just looked like an idiot because of the following scenario:

I was jailor, and I jailed someone N1 who didn't respond. The next day I managed to anonymously pressed them. They still refused to claim. As a result, they were lynched. That was medium.

I then jail someone N2. This person claims med. I'm like 'yeah right', but they convince me that they are RT med.

D4** (not 3), and one vigilante shoots another. Clearly, they were not RT med, if vigilante just shot themselves.

N4** (not 3), I jail this mysterious 'rt med', and execute them. They tell me 'wait and see'. Turns out they were the vigilante who shot the og vigilante.

To summarise: two people, equally not interested in playing right, caused me to lose my abilities early on.


My proposal: make it so that if a town member false claims to jailor, then its gamethrowing. My reasoning behind this is that town has literally no reason to lie to jailor. In fact, its confusing as shit and just messes things up for the rest of the game.

Just a rage-fueled idea.

If what you consider is gamethrowing, lying, deceiving and manipulating would also be considered gamethrowing but town of salem is a game for all those, so what you're trying to suggest here is a contrary of the game therefore I disagree.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Oct 01, 2019 3:35 am

lshz wrote:If what you consider is gamethrowing, lying, deceiving and manipulating would also be considered gamethrowing but town of salem is a game for all those, so what you're trying to suggest here is a contrary of the game therefore I disagree.


Like most things, it all depends on the situation. I know that if there were vampires and no TP, I would fake a claim if they were likely to be turned. But just say in classic ranked, I wouldn't lie to them because what's the point?

It's gamethrowing if you're throwing the game on purpose or just to be 'funny' or 'trolling', if you're not; it's not.
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:58 am

JacksonVirgo wrote:
lshz wrote:If what you consider is gamethrowing, lying, deceiving and manipulating would also be considered gamethrowing but town of salem is a game for all those, so what you're trying to suggest here is a contrary of the game therefore I disagree.


Like most things, it all depends on the situation. I know that if there were vampires and no TP, I would fake a claim if they were likely to be turned. But just say in classic ranked, I wouldn't lie to them because what's the point?

It's gamethrowing if you're throwing the game on purpose or just to be 'funny' or 'trolling', if you're not; it's not.



This was classic...
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby JacksonVirgo » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:39 am

Cataracts wrote:
JacksonVirgo wrote:...



This was classic...

Like as in where all the beginners start? Or just classic as in not coven?
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby Flake » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:53 pm

no
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Re: False town claim to jailor is gamethrowing

Postby PterryDactyl » Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:09 pm

Flake wrote:no




no what
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