The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby KatiyaKramer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:14 am

SwampRabbit wrote:Despite some people's proclivity and fondness for sexual games and innuendo, TOS is not a game about sex. The OP is being greatly disrespected by people who want TOS to be a sex game and who admit that they are sexual harassers in this game when they are assigned the role of escort/consort.

Until I read this post, I never really thought about escort/consort name. It is an important role and should not be removed, but how does it hurt anyone to have the name of the roles changed to something that does not encourage the sexual harassment that the names of the roles give immature jackasses a reason to do?

I absolutely see a ton of sexual harassment in the game brought about solely by the roles "escort" and "consort," so why would any human or any game developer want to encourage that type of atmosphere.

So keep the roles, change the names to something not in the sex industry, and everyone is happy except for the immature jackasses who treat this game as a hookup site and not a gaming site.

Sexual harassment in games happens regardless of what the games themselves have. I know I've been harassed playing TF2 before, but there was nothing in TF2 (especially while playing Sniper, which is my main) that would encourage that. People are assholes, that's a fact of life. Trying to pin the blame on the name of a role is asinine.

And saying in your will "Slept with this guy tonight, no maf kills happened," =/= sexual harassment. It's roleplaying the role without getting too explicit. Don't be one of those people who drops horrible labels on people just because they don't agree with you.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby Flavorable » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:40 am

SwampRabbit wrote:
Flavorable wrote:I still feel that you are mistaking "escort" for "prostitute".



You are being naive here about what escorts are. They do not offer sex services in exchange for payment because it is illegal to do so in every state except for Nevada. Instead, they are paid handsomely (like $300 to $500 an hour) for their "conversation," and the fact that they choose to have sex with the person who paid them for conversation is just a coincidence also known as a legal loophole so they are not arrested.


You have a very pessimistic outlook on things. Not to mention, the escort business is actually still quite large and quite legit. Maybe not in movies and political propaganda, but there's more to the world than the U.S. of A.

If anything, I'd say that you are the one dehumanizing escorts (or anyone who is working in the entertainment industry) by assuming they're basically all hookers who have sex for money and they all do it because they were forced to.

Broaden your horizons, friend.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby Villagerlover » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:13 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:You know what else is SEXIST and DEHUMANIZING?!


Getting killed.

You literally lose all your traits and become dirt.

I hate the idea of it sooooOOO much and the game should just stooOOOOP thaaat!
Make it to where the Mafia and NK roles just turn you into a cupcake instead.

Dude, I've had a fair share of game where I wore a female skin and died N1 to the SK. Clearly the game and it's players are sexist and I second this idea. :WeSmart:


DUDE SAME
I EVEN HAD GAMES WHERE I WAS A MALE SKIN AND DIED N1 TO SK AS WELL!!
It's so clear that the game itself is sexist/dehumanizing and NOT the players who play them, noooooooooo that would be bad. uWu
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby Flavorable » Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:57 pm

Villagerlover wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:
Villagerlover wrote:You know what else is SEXIST and DEHUMANIZING?!


Getting killed.

You literally lose all your traits and become dirt.

I hate the idea of it sooooOOO much and the game should just stooOOOOP thaaat!
Make it to where the Mafia and NK roles just turn you into a cupcake instead.

Dude, I've had a fair share of game where I wore a female skin and died N1 to the SK. Clearly the game and it's players are sexist and I second this idea. :WeSmart:


DUDE SAME
I EVEN HAD GAMES WHERE I WAS A MALE SKIN AND DIED N1 TO SK AS WELL!!
It's so clear that the game itself is sexist/dehumanizing and NOT the players who play them, noooooooooo that would be bad. uWu


Heck, I've had games where people asked me why I am an old man playing in my mom's basement pretending to be a girl, because (and I quote) "girls don't play games". It's a rough world out there.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:36 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:Despite some people's proclivity and fondness for sexual games and innuendo, TOS is not a game about sex. The OP is being greatly disrespected by people who want TOS to be a sex game and who admit that they are sexual harassers in this game when they are assigned the role of escort/consort.

Until I read this post, I never really thought about escort/consort name. It is an important role and should not be removed, but how does it hurt anyone to have the name of the roles changed to something that does not encourage the sexual harassment that the names of the roles give immature jackasses a reason to do?

I absolutely see a ton of sexual harassment in the game brought about solely by the roles "escort" and "consort," so why would any human or any game developer want to encourage that type of atmosphere.

So keep the roles, change the names to something not in the sex industry, and everyone is happy except for the immature jackasses who treat this game as a hookup site and not a gaming site.



Whatever world you live in, where not having the name 'escort' in-game stops all of those antics, I'd like to live in that world.

Unfortunately, in my world, people will continue to act out, whether or not the name is 'escort' or whatever else it may be.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:38 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:Sexual harassment in games happens regardless of what the games themselves have. I know I've been harassed playing TF2 before, but there was nothing in TF2 (especially while playing Sniper, which is my main) that would encourage that. People are assholes, that's a fact of life. Trying to pin the blame on the name of a role is asinine.

And saying in your will "Slept with this guy tonight, no maf kills happened," =/= sexual harassment. It's roleplaying the role without getting too explicit. Don't be one of those people who drops horrible labels on people just because they don't agree with you.


Your post reminded me of this and made me chuckle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkENXa9WNE
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby KatiyaKramer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:42 pm

Cataracts wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:Sexual harassment in games happens regardless of what the games themselves have. I know I've been harassed playing TF2 before, but there was nothing in TF2 (especially while playing Sniper, which is my main) that would encourage that. People are assholes, that's a fact of life. Trying to pin the blame on the name of a role is asinine.

And saying in your will "Slept with this guy tonight, no maf kills happened," =/= sexual harassment. It's roleplaying the role without getting too explicit. Don't be one of those people who drops horrible labels on people just because they don't agree with you.


Your post reminded me of this and made me chuckle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQkENXa9WNE

Watched like 2 minutes of that. Slightly disturbing, but at the same time, again, people are assholes. Can't blame the games themselves for the actions of others. If someone's a dick, they are going to find a way to be a dick.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:48 am

musi99 wrote:
SwampRabbit wrote:
Flavorable wrote:I still feel that you are mistaking "escort" for "prostitute".



You are being naive here about what escorts are. They do not offer sex services in exchange for payment because it is illegal to do so in every state except for Nevada. Instead, they are paid handsomely (like $300 to $500 an hour) for their "conversation," and the fact that they choose to have sex with the person who paid them for conversation is just a coincidence also known as a legal loophole so they are not arrested.


The concept is clear and the idea behind it... it's sexist and wrong, no matter how it's normalised.


Actually a prostitute and an escort are 2 completely different things. An escort is someone who will spend an evening with you, eg. if you need a date to a dinner party, and are paid for their time. Escorts dont come at an hourly rate. The fact that the word has been hijacked by the sex industry, to loophole their way out of legal issues is not a problem that BMG has any power over.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby kyuss420 » Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:54 am

SwampRabbit wrote:
Flavorable wrote:I still feel that you are mistaking "escort" for "prostitute".



You are being naive here about what escorts are. They do not offer sex services in exchange for payment because it is illegal to do so in every state except for Nevada. Instead, they are paid handsomely (like $300 to $500 an hour) for their "conversation," and the fact that they choose to have sex with the person who paid them for conversation is just a coincidence also known as a legal loophole so they are not arrested.


wait a minute..... people pay these women for sex :shock: ? I thought I was paying them to leave afterwards :?
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby Villagerlover » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:28 am

kyuss420 wrote:
SwampRabbit wrote:
Flavorable wrote:I still feel that you are mistaking "escort" for "prostitute".



You are being naive here about what escorts are. They do not offer sex services in exchange for payment because it is illegal to do so in every state except for Nevada. Instead, they are paid handsomely (like $300 to $500 an hour) for their "conversation," and the fact that they choose to have sex with the person who paid them for conversation is just a coincidence also known as a legal loophole so they are not arrested.


wait a minute..... people pay these women for sex :shock: ? I thought I was paying them to leave afterwards :?


No man...they won't leave. They'll stay around and refuse to leave your room unless you pay them a hefty fine!
Glad you figured it out though.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:37 am

Villagerlover wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:
SwampRabbit wrote:
Flavorable wrote:I still feel that you are mistaking "escort" for "prostitute".



You are being naive here about what escorts are. They do not offer sex services in exchange for payment because it is illegal to do so in every state except for Nevada. Instead, they are paid handsomely (like $300 to $500 an hour) for their "conversation," and the fact that they choose to have sex with the person who paid them for conversation is just a coincidence also known as a legal loophole so they are not arrested.


wait a minute..... people pay these women for sex :shock: ? I thought I was paying them to leave afterwards :?


No man...they won't leave. They'll stay around and refuse to leave your room unless you pay them a hefty fine!
Glad you figured it out though.



That's strange...in Japan I think you pay in advance and its like anything but intercourse is legal and its an hourly rate based on 'packages' (toys, oral, etc). There's also the host club system, tho..that sounds more like this lol.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby SwampRabbit » Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:42 am

I am not sure how this thread devolved into tips on how and when to pay your "escorts" in various countries.....

BUT, the fact that it did, emphasizes how the role names play a catalyst in sexual harassment in the game and why changing the name of the role to something not in the sex trade industry would make sense.

(And also to anyone out there still saying escort is not a sex trade industry--look to the TOS chat filter. if you type "whore", it is filtered to say "escort".)
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby KatiyaKramer » Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:02 am

SwampRabbit wrote:I am not sure how this thread devolved into tips on how and when to pay your "escorts" in various countries.....

BUT, the fact that it did, emphasizes how the role names play a catalyst in sexual harassment in the game and why changing the name of the role to something not in the sex trade industry would make sense.

(And also to anyone out there still saying escort is not a sex trade industry--look to the TOS chat filter. if you type "whore", it is filtered to say "escort".)

The whole "The name of the role encourages sexual harassment" argument is stupid. Point blank. It's like Republicans blaming mass shootings on video games. There are just as many cases of sexual harassment occurring in TOS that doesn't involve the Escort/Consort roles, as there is involving them. People are going to be assholes regardless of what the situation is. You can remove the names, you can remove all the "sexy" skins and just have people wearing the most concealing clothing in existence that doesn't even give a hint as to what gender the player is, and have all the names automatically set to "Individual 1", "Individual 2", etc. and people are still going to be assholes.

The game's content isn't the problem, people are.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:22 am

SwampRabbit wrote:I am not sure how this thread devolved into tips on how and when to pay your "escorts" in various countries.....

BUT, the fact that it did, emphasizes how the role names play a catalyst in sexual harassment in the game and why changing the name of the role to something not in the sex trade industry would make sense.

(And also to anyone out there still saying escort is not a sex trade industry--look to the TOS chat filter. if you type "whore", it is filtered to say "escort".)


So youre saying anyone who pays for services from an escort, involves themselves in behavious of sexual harassment? I just said, I dont pay women for sex, I could get that for free anytime.... I pay them to leave afterwards. Maybe we can change the name to ''Tinder date'' or ''Club Goer'' or ''Party Goer'' or ''Bar Fly''
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:46 am

SwampRabbit wrote:I am not sure how this thread devolved into tips on how and when to pay your "escorts" in various countries.....

BUT, the fact that it did, emphasizes how the role names play a catalyst in sexual harassment in the game and why changing the name of the role to something not in the sex trade industry would make sense.

(And also to anyone out there still saying escort is not a sex trade industry--look to the TOS chat filter. if you type "whore", it is filtered to say "escort".)




At least we are discussing on paying, and not running out without paying.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby James2 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:56 am

If anyone is offended by the role name “escort”, I’d recommend they take up a job or a hobby or some other useful activity to occupy their time. That usually cures such ails.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby SwampRabbit » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:09 am

My opinion is based on personal observations in more than the 10000 games I have played. General harassment is common, but the only times I have had to report people for sexual harassment has revolved around the escort/consort roles.

@Katiya we are going to disagree on this just as I thought a username describing a sex act on a female minor should be unacceptable and you thought it was perfectly fine. We are never going to agree on anything related to sex in this game because you consider it an acceptable part of the game, and I do not. The way you describe yourself including sex messages in your will as escort, I would not report it. I would find it annoying and time wasting having to sort through that garbage to get to the info needed for town to win, but not reportable. I do not think you and I have ever been in a game together, but based on your comments on various threads on this forum, it seems that you would never find anything as sexual harassment because you seem to welcome, encourage and participate in those activities. Sexual harassment occurs when it is unwelcomed, so that is something I doubt you will ever experience online or in real life.

@kyuss420 you paying for an escort is not sexual harassment. But if you make sexually offensive, repeated and known to be unwelcome (as in I told you it was not welcomed) comments to me or to anyone else in this game, then that is sexual harassment. And that is the type of people I have reported for it--and every time revolved around escort/consort roles. Most people stop when you tell them it is unwelcomed. But why should it have ever started just because one of us was assigned a role of town whore or mafia whore? Take away the labels of town whore and mafia whore and that type of actual sexual harassment will stop. Will it stop it 100%? In my experience, yes it will. At a minimum, it will be removed nearly completely. I think Katiya misconstrues sexual banter that she welcomes and participates in with the unwelcomed offensive remarks that are sexual harassment.

If Katiya is right and her welcome sexual banter in game continues even without roles being labeled town whore and mafia whore, then why does she or anyone object so greatly to renaming the roles? Renaming the roles literally hurts no one except for those who use it as an excuse to sexually harass other players in the game.

@James2, the original OP seems to be offended by the names alone. I never cared about the names of the roles, But this thread made me consider it and reflect and realize that EVERY time I have had to report someone for sexual harassment it revolves around the names escort/consort. So my concern about it is limited to the atmosphere is creates allowing people (who would otherwise not do it) make repeated inappropriate and unwelcomed sexual remarks to other players.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby James2 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:34 am

Concern about “atmosphere” or “culture” is nearly always the method used by busybodies to malignantly interfere in the business of others. If there’s a problem with specific behavior, the correct response is to punish those who engage in the bad behavior.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby KatiyaKramer » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:06 am

SwampRabbit wrote:@Katiya we are going to disagree on this just as I thought a username describing a sex act on a female minor should be unacceptable and you thought it was perfectly fine. We are never going to agree on anything related to sex in this game because you consider it an acceptable part of the game, and I do not. The way you describe yourself including sex messages in your will as escort, I would not report it. I would find it annoying and time wasting having to sort through that garbage to get to the info needed for town to win, but not reportable. I do not think you and I have ever been in a game together, but based on your comments on various threads on this forum, it seems that you would never find anything as sexual harassment because you seem to welcome, encourage and participate in those activities. Sexual harassment occurs when it is unwelcomed, so that is something I doubt you will ever experience online or in real life.


Oh no, I assure you, I've been sexually harassed and even slightly assaulted (groped) growing up, and I've been on the receiving end of sexual whispers in this game that made me uncomfortable, and I'd never encourage or participate in a situation that makes others feel uncomfortable. If someone is whispering sex jokes to another player in a report and that player is clearly uncomfortable and is telling them to stop, I'll guilty the shit out of it.

My problem comes with people making snap judgments and wanting stuff cleaned of any sexual or offensive suggestion, even when there is no ill intention present. It is just the name of a role in a video game. It, in no way, encourages people to be assholes and harass each other, because people are going to be assholes and harass each other regardless. Blaming the name of a role is a cop-out. The blame lies solely on the players who break the rules in the first place.

You punish the players for bad behavior, not change the game.

EDIT: I had to go back and look up the name that "described a sexual act on a minor" to figure out what you were talking about. If that name in question is the one I'm thinking of, it doesn't entirely mean it's on an act done on a minor.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:03 pm

A list of (a few) reports and appeals that are from 'sexual harrassment' but are not 'i was escort':

"What's your role sugar tits": viewtopic.php?f=40&t=102349&p=3250113&hilit=sugar+tits#p3248483
"Pornhubbot": viewtopic.php?f=26&t=103173
"Rape is good": viewtopic.php?f=26&t=103032
"Famos Rapists theme" :https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=102997
"Lobby Pedophilia": viewtopic.php?f=40&t=102844



This is just a few for y'all, to prove that this isn't an 'escort only' issue. Changing the escort name to something that one or two people find as 'less offensive' isn't going to stop shit from happening.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby SwampRabbit » Thu Sep 19, 2019 3:46 pm

Those comments are sexual and offensive, but once again,they are not sexual harassment. The first one is borderline sexual harassment. The others are not even remotely so.

But rather than me sit here as an attorney trying to explain to gamers what is and what is not sexual harassment (explaining the law to non-lawyers and law student is what I get paid to do, and I am not being paid for this), how about a gamer--even just one gamer (and I pick you Cataracts since you replied most recently)--explain to me how changing the names from escort and consort (aka town whore and mafia whore) hurts this game in any manner even though it will stop nearly all if not all sexual harassment?

To be completely honest, the objectors on this thread seem to have one and only one argument--"it won't stop 100% so do nothing" You all sound as ignorant about this subject as the U.S. government does on climate change.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:21 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:But rather than me sit here as an attorney trying to explain to gamers what is and what is not sexual harassment (explaining the law to non-lawyers and law student is what I get paid to do, and I am not being paid for this), how about a gamer--even just one gamer (and I pick you Cataracts since you replied most recently)--explain to me how changing the names from escort and consort (aka town whore and mafia whore) hurts this game in any manner even though it will stop nearly all if not all sexual harassment?

To be completely honest, the objectors on this thread seem to have one and only one argument--"it won't stop 100% so do nothing" You all sound as ignorant about this subject as the U.S. government does on climate change.



Simple: Shit like this, which is absolutely silly and solves nothing, takes the attention away from real suggestions, which actually help the game.


Also, I'm not sure what your profession has to do with any of this, but finding a place to throw it in there doesn't make you any more right or wrong. Its just unnecessary, and makes you look like you're trying way too hard to prove way too little.

It certainly doesn't qualify you in your opinion.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:29 pm

Also I'm gonna go ahead and invalidate this all right now on the spot...

The same person (musi99) who made this thread made ANOTHER thread in which they decided that "Kamikaze" is the new great best role. (viewtopic.php?f=27&t=102935&p=3269138#p3269138)

Why would in one thread would you sit here and bitch about how the escort role is cruel and harrassment and dehumanising, but in another thread you make a role named after a WWII suicide attack squad...

And I know kamikaze isn't just that, but please, read the description provided by op:

Kamikaze: Neutral Evil. An ex-soldier who is still traumatized by the events he witnessed at war.
He has one chance to kill himself and another (or 2) player(s) with him at any night. He wins if that player is the last member of any role-type (Mafia, Town or Neutrals). He must use his one shot to destroy a faction/role-type. Lynching doesn't count. If the player(s) he attacks are not the last member(s) of any faction/role-type, he loses (he dies but his targets survive (?)). If there are more than 2 (?) Neutrals in a game, he can also win if he destroys all Neutrals, including himself. But if there are less than 3 (?) Neutrals, he can't win by destroying Neutrals. Appears suspicious to Sheriff. If he is attacked at night, both him and the attacker die (?).




Just an interesting thing I figured I'd bring in here.



Oh: they also made that post on 9/11...fun fact.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby SwampRabbit » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:31 pm

My profession most certainly qualifies me as knowing what is and what is not sexual harassment. I am sorry that my profession and subsequent knowledge of legal terms offends you so greatly.

But once again, thanks for your response of "it won't solve the problem so do nothing." You have actually changed your opinion from "not all of it revolves around the names of the roles" to "none of it revolves around the role names"--which is 100% false.

Also, when I use my game experience as a measure of when harassment takes place, it has 100% of the time revolved around the roles of escort/consort. But, keep in mind, that I almost exclusively play very high ranked games where the players are there because they like to play the game and win and not because they are immature juveniles trying to get laid.
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Re: The "Escort" Rolename Is Dehumanizing

Postby PterryDactyl » Thu Sep 19, 2019 4:38 pm

SwampRabbit wrote:My profession most certainly qualifies me as knowing what is and what is not sexual harassment. I am sorry that my profession and subsequent knowledge of legal terms offends you so greatly.

But once again, thanks for your response of "it won't solve the problem so do nothing." You have actually changed your opinion from "not all of it revolves around the names of the roles" to "none of it revolves around the role names"--which is 100% false.

Also, when I use my game experience as a measure of when harassment takes place, it has 100% of the time revolved around the roles of escort/consort. But, keep in mind, that I almost exclusively play very high ranked games where the players are there because they like to play the game and win and not because they are immature juveniles trying to get laid.



If someone's trying to get laid on TOS, then I don't know where they think they're gonna go with that.


But yeah, after the 'recent discovery', I'm convinced OP is either 1) a troll 2) wanting attention or 3) has either zero snap, zero judgement, or both. So, I'm bowing out. its getting to the point where I'm wasting my time explaining to you something about someone who clearly doesn't have their head screwed on right.
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