Allow In-Game Suicide

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Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby James2 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:58 pm

As it stands there are currently numerous situations in which it can be tactically beneficial for players to get themselves killed. The most obvious of these is when the youngest vampire in Dracula's Palace gets caught and jailed. Others include an outed VIP with no protection, as well as the Classic/RP scenario of the sole surviving mafia killer getting caught.

In DP (and also VIP mode to some extent), the meta has largely shifted to the expectation that people caught in such a situation will leave for the benefit of their team. Since such leaving is technically gamethrowing and practically cheating, this rewards rule-breakers with a massive in-game advantage. This is only exacerbated by the fact that leaving is now non-punished as long as the leaver doesn't say anything.

There are a few possible solutions to this problem. One would be to harshly punish people who leave in these situations. Another would be to rework the affected modes such that these situations no longer came up. I don't think BMG has the mind or the will to do either of these things, since they would both require actual effort. That is why I am proposing that their should be an in-game suicide option (separate from the general option to leave which should be gotten rid of anyway). Players who use this ability should remain in the game (and keep their wincon) while having access to all public game info (and only public game info, to avoid this being used as an avenue for cheating that would not otherwise be possible). They should not be able to communicate with other players in any way. And just like leaver-suicides, in-game suicides *should* be delayed until the next end-of-night. Also, obviously, use of this feature without valid reason should be treated as gamethrowing.

This seems to be the only practically feasible way to put rule-following players back on a level footing with existing tactical leavers.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:31 pm

It would be a lot better to create a way for evils to work around being repeatedly roleblocked (like Tactical Mafia Kills for an example) than to simply allow them to kill themselves. First, it would be more fun than unceremoniously ejecting oneself from the game when they get fucked over in this manner. Second, gamethrowing is a huge issue, and saying "just report the people who use this to throw" isn't going to stop people from doing it.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby James2 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:12 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:It would be a lot better to create a way for evils to work around being repeatedly roleblocked (like Tactical Mafia Kills for an example) than to simply allow them to kill themselves. First, it would be more fun than unceremoniously ejecting oneself from the game when they get fucked over in this manner. Second, gamethrowing is a huge issue, and saying "just report the people who use this to throw" isn't going to stop people from doing it.


Fixing the perverse incentives would be good, but it's not particularly likely that BMG will put in the effort to rework Mafia and Vampire mechanics any time soon. Thus my (much simpler) proposal.

As for throwing, legitimate play should never be impeded because of the possibility of throwers. Tactical suicide should be allowed or not allowed for mechanical reasons. The possibility of abuse shouldn't factor into it. And if it's not allowed, then something needs to be done about it.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby James2 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:14 pm

Also, if people want to leave to troll, they can already do that without fear of penalty as long as they don't say anything. Tactical suicide would be less likely to be used to throw than leaving in general, since it would leave a clear record that the person suicided intentionally.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby Tailslover13 » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:26 pm

On a certain level, I can kinda get behind this. I've seen far too many games where the outcome is pretty much a done deal, and things are just drawn out and nobody is happy with it. So, having a suicide button that doesn't actually punish you for 'quitting' just to speed up the game seems fair. I know that admins or mods or other players will likely claim "No, you should 100% ALWAYS keep playing! Even if you're the only mafia left and there are 10 town, and Escort is on you, and Vigilante wants to shoot you, you STILL must play it out! Because...uh, all 10 of those town might disconnect at once! Or you can make up an extremely amazing lie and bluff your way all the way to the end and win!" I swear, some people don't understand that some situations really are impossible and trying to make light of it doesn't help.

But, sarcasm aside, I also think 'tactical suicide' is a fun proposition, too. Like, if your Mafioso is getting roleblocked constantly, or jailed constantly, and the town wants to keep them blocked/jailed while hunting other mafia...I think the Mafioso going "Fuck this" and suiciding, without actually QUITTING, to potentially aid their mafia...is an interesting thought. Yes, it can just as easily doom you, but...it could also potentially help. So, I think there's an idea here. I just don't know how it would really work.

Plus, there IS kinda a suicide option in the game already: go say hello to the Veteran.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby James2 » Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:35 am

Tailslover13 wrote:On a certain level, I can kinda get behind this. I've seen far too many games where the outcome is pretty much a done deal, and things are just drawn out and nobody is happy with it. So, having a suicide button that doesn't actually punish you for 'quitting' just to speed up the game seems fair. I know that admins or mods or other players will likely claim "No, you should 100% ALWAYS keep playing! Even if you're the only mafia left and there are 10 town, and Escort is on you, and Vigilante wants to shoot you, you STILL must play it out! Because...uh, all 10 of those town might disconnect at once! Or you can make up an extremely amazing lie and bluff your way all the way to the end and win!" I swear, some people don't understand that some situations really are impossible and trying to make light of it doesn't help.


That is not in any way what this is about. Using the suicide option to surrender would be considered gamethrowing, under this proposal.

But, sarcasm aside, I also think 'tactical suicide' is a fun proposition, too. Like, if your Mafioso is getting roleblocked constantly, or jailed constantly, and the town wants to keep them blocked/jailed while hunting other mafia...I think the Mafioso going "Fuck this" and suiciding, without actually QUITTING, to potentially aid their mafia...is an interesting thought. Yes, it can just as easily doom you, but...it could also potentially help. So, I think there's an idea here. I just don't know how it would really work.


It needs to be added because it's already possible to do this in practice (just leave), so the current set up gives an unfair advantage to those who break the rules by leaving.

Plus, there IS kinda a suicide option in the game already: go say hello to the Veteran.


N/A if you're rbed or jailed.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby Brilliand » Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:56 am

Tailslover13 wrote:On a certain level, I can kinda get behind this. I've seen far too many games where the outcome is pretty much a done deal, and things are just drawn out and nobody is happy with it. So, having a suicide button that doesn't actually punish you for 'quitting' just to speed up the game seems fair. I know that admins or mods or other players will likely claim "No, you should 100% ALWAYS keep playing! Even if you're the only mafia left and there are 10 town, and Escort is on you, and Vigilante wants to shoot you, you STILL must play it out! Because...uh, all 10 of those town might disconnect at once! Or you can make up an extremely amazing lie and bluff your way all the way to the end and win!" I swear, some people don't understand that some situations really are impossible and trying to make light of it doesn't help.


There's no gamemode with 10 town in it. O_o
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby JacksonVirgo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:47 pm

Brilliand wrote:There's no gamemode with 10 town in it. O_o

It was an exaggerated sarcastic comment I believe.

I do believe that this should be implemented and if people want to use it to throw, there's always the report button. This adds another way for Evils to one up Town when they think they've got it handled (jailing the Youngest vamp, only killing role etc)
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby Voriki » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:38 am

Brilliand wrote:There's no gamemode with 10 town in it. O_o

Draculas Palace has 9 Townies, but no maf.
While I can give my general opinion on any subject, I only have playing experience in Classic and Draculas Palace, non ranked.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby Brilliand » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:27 pm

Voriki wrote:
Brilliand wrote:There's no gamemode with 10 town in it. O_o

Draculas Palace has 9 Townies, but no maf.


Most of the gamemodes have 9 townies.

But there aren't any with 10. (Except Custom and All Any, on certain rare occasions.)
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby Flake » Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:39 pm

i too want to commit suicide whenever i play town of salem

/support
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby KatiyaKramer » Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:38 pm

I recall there being a large debate over the addition of a leave button in game for users to use in order to leave the game without refreshing their browser and stuff like that. Some saw it as a good idea, many saw it as a way to almost encourage players to leave, making it seem like if you didn't like your role, you could just leave with no consequences, and they begged for the button to be removed.

I feel like a "in-game suicide" option would result in a similar debate. It could give players the wrong idea that "Hey, if you don't like how this game is going, go ahead, kill yourself (even if you still have a slight chance of winning) and then you can legally leave the game." and not face any consequences for doing so.

I also don't think it's needed. If you are in a game that is likely going to end in a loss for you, but you are still alive, suck it up and play it out. Killing yourself or leaving takes away the satisfaction the winners get, or even the observers get, by seeing the game play out properly. In addition, you never know what could happen that could turn a game that looks like it's a lost one minute, into a probable win in the next.

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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby James2 » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:50 pm

KatiyaKramer wrote:I also don't think it's needed. If you are in a game that is likely going to end in a loss for you, but you are still alive, suck it up and play it out. Killing yourself or leaving takes away the satisfaction the winners get, or even the observers get, by seeing the game play out properly. In addition, you never know what could happen that could turn a game that looks like it's a lost one minute, into a probable win in the next.


Please read the OP before replying. Thank you.
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Re: Allow In-Game Suicide

Postby KatiyaKramer » Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:13 am

James2 wrote:
KatiyaKramer wrote:I also don't think it's needed. If you are in a game that is likely going to end in a loss for you, but you are still alive, suck it up and play it out. Killing yourself or leaving takes away the satisfaction the winners get, or even the observers get, by seeing the game play out properly. In addition, you never know what could happen that could turn a game that looks like it's a lost one minute, into a probable win in the next.


Please read the OP before replying. Thank you.

Like I said, suck it up and let the game play out properly. Don't even supply gamethrowers with the option to troll.

Leaving will be handled after Unity is done. So that shouldn't be a worry for *too much* (hopefully) longer.
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