We NEED more coven players.

[KJYKJY1985]

The biggest issue facing TOS today is the lack of Coven players. Given how much weaker the mafia is and how much more tedious the mafia roles are, the dread of landing evil roles is greatly reduced in Coven. It boggles my mind that people would rather play the mafia version than spend a few dollars (as I type this, the whole TOS is bundle is on sale for $9.98).
It didn't always used to be this way. For a good long while after Coven came out, it was barely any more difficult to start a Coven game than a mafia game.
There are only two things I can think of off hand to increase the number of Coven players:

1)Make Coven free.
2)Put the mafia version behind the same paywall as Coven so that people have to buy Coven if they want to play at all.

There are probably better solutions out there.

[Sikka]

I feel you every time I go in Coven I feel like I've wasted my money on it. They need to do something about that cause I expect to play it but not many people come into the lobby to even get a game started. Very annoying if I'm being honest.

[KJYKJY1985]

Thanks for giving this thread some attention. I think this is important because Coven mitigates (though doesn't eliminate) some of the worst parts of landing an evil role. The game is still stacked against the Coven, but not nearly as much as it is against the Mafia. There's also the lack of thought and agency with the mafia roles:

GF/Mafioso: Click on the person you want to die.
Janitor/Forger: Click on whoever the GF clicked on.
Consort/Blackmailer: Just don't do anything until there's an ideal target. Otherwise you just risk giving the town vital info.
Framer: Maybe hope for a lucky frame? Otherwise see Consort/Blackmailer.
Consigliere: Share your results with the Mafia at night and maybe claim investigator.
Disguiser: Just go AFK and watch some TV or something and check on the game periodically to see if you've been promoted to Mafioso.

I'm inclined to think more people aren't playing Coven because they don't realize how much better the situation is for them. Don't get me wrong, I'd still rather play town, but at least I don't dread landing a Coven role like I do Mafia.

[Joacgroso]

The thing is that playing mafia isn't based in night abilities, while playing coven gives more focus to that. They are different factions for a reason. While mafia has to cause misslynches to win, coven has to use their night abilities.
I don't think playing as mafia doesn't require thought. In fact, I think it's way harder than playing coven.

About what you said about mafia roles:
GF/mafioso: It's not as simple as picking whoever you want to die. You have to figure out who has a stronger role, who might be protected and who might be the target of other evils, just like most coven roles.
Janitor/forger: They can also tell the gf who to kill and coordinate the mafia (just like any mafia role). Janitors are especially good at coordinating claims since they hold information other members don't, and you can't say playing forger requires no thought, since they have to write a convincing fake will to use their ability. You can play mindlessly by turning your role into a worse janitor, but that isn't the way the role was meant to be played.
Consort/blackmailer: Why shouldn't consorts roleblock since n1? Their chances of hurting town are good, and then deciding who to roleblock (and thinking who may have a lookout on his house) isn't mindless. They don't have to wait for their target to claim some important role if they can townread. And blackmailers shouldn't bm at first, but they can still read whispers and plan their moves according to town's plans. Knowing when to bm is also important, and they can always fake bm'ed if there are no spies.
Framer: This is a horrible role that has serious problems due to spies, but besides that you have to think carefully who to is more likely to get checked. You can also try to make spies think mafia has a different RM role with your visits. It's only luck if you visit at random.
Consigliere: The thing is being a good reader to check for the most important people before is too late. Claiming invest isn't very good because there might be a spy ingame and also because invests and consigs are supposed to check different people.
Disguiser: Or you can try to cause misslynches while you disguise as someone else. You can disguise as the person the mafia kills so you know your fake role and then disguise as someone who already claimed.

With your logic, most coven roles don't require thought:
CL: control the person you want to die into Medusa and then into anyone.
Medusa: Gaze the first 3 nights and then do nothing.
Poisoner: Visit the person you want to die or do nothing if there is a doctor.
PM: Click the person you want to die/ share your results with the coven and maybe claim investigator.
HM: Hex whoever the coven is not killing.
Necrodancer: Wait until a killer dies an click whoever you want to die.

[KJYKJY1985]

GF/mafioso: It's not as simple as picking whoever you want to die. You have to figure out who has a stronger role, who might be protected and who might be the target of other evils, just like most coven roles.

This really isn't that thoughtful of a process. The only mafia investigative role is the Consigliere. For the most part, you're just believing what the non-mafia players say, as most of them have no reason to lie.

Janitor/forger: They can also tell the gf who to kill and coordinate the mafia (just like any mafia role). Janitors are especially good at coordinating claims since they hold information other members don't,

That's just a fancy way of saying "Tell the rest of the mafia who the cleaned guy is so we can claim his role."

and you can't say playing forger requires no thought, since they have to write a convincing fake will to use their ability. You can play mindlessly by turning your role into a worse janitor, but that isn't the way the role was meant to be played.

I understand the concept, but in practice the opportunity almost never comes up. You really are just a weak Janitor for the most part.

Consort/blackmailer: Why shouldn't consorts roleblock since n1? Their chances of hurting town are good, and then deciding who to roleblock (and thinking who may have a lookout on his house) isn't mindless. They don't have to wait for their target to claim some important role if they can townread.

Roleblocking every night just gives the town more info. A spy can confirm more townies and the existence of a Consort. If a Lookout sees you, it will force you into an Escort claim and if a Lookout and Spy see you, you're lynched. If there's a Spy and you're jailed, someone's likely to notice fewer mafia visits that night (I've caught several mafia this way). Preventing 1/9 of the town from using their ability for a night is usually hardly worth the risk of losing 1/4 of the mafia. I'm not saying it never comes up. There was one game where I was a Consort and after a Ret claim was on the stand and asked for a night to prove himself, I roleblocked him that night and, because there were no roleblock claims previously, no one believed him and he was lynched (We still ended up losing the game). In practice you end up not using your ability until an opportunity like this comes up - if it comes up.

And blackmailers shouldn't bm at first, but they can still read whispers and plan their moves according to town's plans. Knowing when to bm is also important, and they can always fake bm'ed if there are no spies.

The town is aware that Blackmailers are a thing and most of my complaints about Consorts apply here as well. I'm not saying Blackmailers are useless, far from it. I'm just saying you end up waiting patiently to make a play with a very high risk/reward ratio.

Consigliere: The thing is being a good reader to check for the most important people before is too late. Claiming invest isn't very good because there might be a spy ingame and also because invests and consigs are supposed to check different people.

I understand what Consiglieres do and it's quite useful. It's just not as much fun as you make it out to be.

Disguiser: Or you can try to cause misslynches while you disguise as someone else. You can disguise as the person the mafia kills so you know your fake role and then disguise as someone who already claimed.

That only works if an investigator checks you the same night you disguise as a known role. Any other TI will be able to spot holes in your claim. Your not even sheriff proof when you disguise!

I'm glad we mostly agree about Framer.

Evils are less fun to play than town for a couple reasons. For one, there's less deductive reasoning involved. You know who your enemies are. They're everyone but you and the people in that little box. You don't have to decipher people's true identities or intentions because, for the most part, they have no reason to lie. The other issue is balance. I don't know where to get hard data, but some googling led me to someone who claims that town wins 80% of the time against mafia in ranked. That may be a bit extreme, but the reality is still pretty bleak. Simply giving the evil faction the ability to potentially kill multiple people in the same night goes a long way and giving them more elaborate abilities also helps quite a bit.

[Joacgroso]

This really isn't that thoughtful of a process. The only mafia investigative role is the Consigliere. For the most part, you're just believing what the non-mafia players say, as most of them have no reason to lie.

Yes, but you can also townread (for example, non claimers who actively vote are usually important townies). Besides, you also have to think who is safe who attack and who isn't, just like most coven roles.

That's just a fancy way of saying "Tell the rest of the mafia who the cleaned guy is so we can claim his role."

Pretty much. That's why janitors can coordinate claims better. It's not like all mafia can claim one cleaned slot. Janitors can also make really good plays if there are no meds/ret in the game, which require more thought. But besides that, what I was saying is that mafia roles are not ability-focused like coven, since they require people to think claims, ways to prove themselves and ways to get townies lynched. Coven doesn't need this that strongly because they kill more people at night.

I understand the concept, but in practice the opportunity almost never comes up. You really are just a weak Janitor for the most part.

It's pretty situational as you say, but finding the right moment also requires thought. I don't think forgers are a "thoughtless role".

Roleblocking every night just gives the town more info. A spy can confirm more townies and the existence of a Consort. If a Lookout sees you, it will force you into an Escort claim and if a Lookout and Spy see you, you're lynched. If there's a Spy and you're jailed, someone's likely to notice fewer mafia visits that night (I've caught several mafia this way). Preventing 1/9 of the town from using their ability for a night is usually hardly worth the risk of losing 1/4 of the mafia. I'm not saying it never comes up. There was one game where I was a Consort and after a Ret claim was on the stand and asked for a night to prove himself, I roleblocked him that night and, because there were no roleblock claims previously, no one believed him and he was lynched (We still ended up losing the game). In practice you end up not using your ability until an opportunity like this comes up - if it comes up.

That only happens if there is a spy, but unlike framers, consorts aren't completely useless if there is a spy (unless they want to claim escort, which is an awful idea). Killing the most powerful roles while roleblocking the protective roles is pretty important.
Also, if a lookout sees you, it's because he outplayed you. As I said, you have to keep in mind people might have a lookout on them.
And if you claim early and act in a not suspicious way, the jailor will have no reason to jail you. And if he does, he will probably execute you anyway.

The town is aware that Blackmailers are a thing and most of my complaints about Consorts apply here as well. I'm not saying Blackmailers are useless, far from it. I'm just saying you end up waiting patiently to make a play with a very high risk/reward ratio.

I see people whispering in most games because bmers don't have a high chance of spawning. You can coordinate other players taking in account what other people whispered. Knowing when to bm also requires thought.

I understand what Consiglieres do and it's quite useful. It's just not as much fun as you make it out to be.

But we aren't talking about fun, which is subjective. We're talking about wheter this roles require thought or not.

That only works if an investigator checks you the same night you disguise as a known role. Any other TI will be able to spot holes in your claim. Your not even sheriff proof when you disguise!

But if you know the role you're faking, then you can write a decent will so people won't suspect you when you die. That's the point of the role, not hardcountering investigators. The idea is causing misslynches, dying, and then causing more misslynches.

Evils are less fun to play than town for a couple reasons. For one, there's less deductive reasoning involved. You know who your enemies are. They're everyone but you and the people in that little box. You don't have to decipher people's true identities or intentions because, for the most part, they have no reason to lie. The other issue is balance. I don't know where to get hard data, but some googling led me to someone who claims that town wins 80% of the time against mafia in ranked. That may be a bit extreme, but the reality is still pretty bleak. Simply giving the evil faction the ability to potentially kill multiple people in the same night goes a long way and giving them more elaborate abilities also helps quite a bit.

We shouldn't talk about fun because it's subjective. Many people find mafia roles funny (you can read some signatures or guides and you'll notice it). Mafia also has to deduce who the neutrals are, who have reasons to lie.
Of course, I can't really say how hard it's to play as coven because I don't have the DLC, I just don't think mafia requires less thought than them.

[Rivelle]

While I don't think it should be free, I think coven tickets should be able to be obtained from video ads or town/merit points

[MysticMismagius]

While I don't think it should be free, I think coven tickets should be able to be obtained from video ads or town/merit points

But then no one would buy Coven, as you could potentially get an infinite amount of tickets for free.

[Rivelle]

While I don't think it should be free, I think coven tickets should be able to be obtained from video ads or town/merit points

But then no one would buy Coven, as you could potentially get an infinite amount of tickets for free.

If so then I suggest that the amount of ads and purchases for the ticket should have a limit, which refreshes once in a while. That's how classic tickets work (only through ads)

[PleaseReadSiege]

I can get a full game of Coven All Any every hour of the day. The rest of the coven modes suck any way

[KJYKJY1985]

Someone's going to have to explain the appeal of All Any to me 'cause I've never understood it.

[MysticMismagius]

No role list. You can't abuse a role list that isn't there, so AA avoids the process-of-elimination bullshit that exists in other game modes.
Also, every role can exist, which is nice.

[KJYKJY1985]

It's weird to think people like All Any for the exact reason I hate it.

[MysticMismagius]

You know what they say about different strokes and different folks. I rarely play anything besides AA because I find that town often wins the other modes by just process-of-eliminationing the evils to death. That's boring and makes it so that evils who play well can get fucked for something they couldn't control.