Role Removal

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Role Removal

Postby inabamitsu » Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:57 am

Remove the Executioner and Vampire (and by contrast the Vampire Hunter).

Both sets of roles are easily abusable for harassment purposes and are constantly used that way as exampled in quite a few of the games I've played recently (and one report for 'gamethrowing')

These roles serve no actual purpose other than to grief and harass other players in a gameplay manner, making Town of Salem support bullying instead of actually working to figure out the truth.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Jan 22, 2023 9:19 am

I can see what you mean with vampire but executioner? Really?

Stop crying
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Re: Role Removal

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:00 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I can see what you mean with vampire but executioner? Really?

Stop crying


Executioner is more problematic then vampires change my mind. Not even joking here I'd rather change Exe (and jester) before vampires.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:15 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I can see what you mean with vampire but executioner? Really?

Stop crying


Executioner is more problematic then vampires change my mind. Not even joking here I'd rather change Exe (and jester) before vampires.


Exe is unbalanced but nowhere near as bad as vampire and is not an unhealthy role, vampires are
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Re: Role Removal

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jan 24, 2023 12:53 pm

While I do agree that Vampire is the single worst role to ever exist in the game, and it should be yeeted into the sun ASAP

Executioner isn't that bad
I think a few small changes would make it a lot better (namely, moving it from NE to NC and giving it the target's role as well as their name)

I wouldn't cry over losing it but I don't think it warrants being deleted over other, infinitely more stupid roles
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Re: Role Removal

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jan 24, 2023 5:35 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I can see what you mean with vampire but executioner? Really?

Stop crying


Executioner is more problematic then vampires change my mind. Not even joking here I'd rather change Exe (and jester) before vampires.


Exe is unbalanced but nowhere near as bad as vampire and is not an unhealthy role, vampires are

Nah vampires are fine, they're chaos only roles

I personally rather vampires only appear in a game mode: Dracula's Palace (also edit that mode for more Neutrals, RT's and more roles like sheriff interacting with the role), The main issue with vampires is not that they can convert as I see it, Conversion is perfectly fine if That mechanic is to be expected, you know what you're getting into the issue is when you queue into a random game mode such as all any and vampires ruin that game by existing, The biggest solution is not rework vampires into some completely different role but make them more exclusive to custom game modes or Dracula's palace. Converts are not flawed in modes where your assured theirs conversion roles.


Executioner actually effects game modes where balance really matters, theirs no denying the simple truth that Exe really really creates issues in ranked (alongside jester), both are these stupid Neutral benign-ish roles that spawn with the witch and don't have an objective that's "neutral evil" Jester quite literally being Neutral benign, while Exe can turn into jester or once their target is gone they can side whoever they want, Compared to randomly spawning a role that purely helps evils, I rather see EXE/JESTER changed before vampires, I think it's very important for game balance to even put ranked first in the front of balance.

If vampires was in ranked (like it used to be), I'd 100% agree with you, but vampires are in a gamemode where it's just all any? so expecting any balance in that sort of mode makes no sense to begin with, But I do think they should be removed from all any as such VH too.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:23 pm

Not even all any is good for vampires, so yes I do support the idea of leaving vamps as a thing exclusive to drac palace and custom

About exe, it should be reworked, not removed, specially considering NE would be left with just 1 role if we removed the roles
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Re: Role Removal

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:45 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Not even all any is good for vampires, so yes I do support the idea of leaving vamps as a thing exclusive to drac palace and custom

About exe, it should be reworked, not removed, specially considering NE would be left with just 1 role if we removed the roles

yeah I don't think it's fun to have vampires in all any, but it feels like its the least of TOS problems to me, but vamps shouldn't really be a unexpected role you should 100% know theirs conversions as its frustrating to deal.

Exe/jester needs to be moved out to Neutral chaos and replaced with new NE's imo (very unlikely) that or completely reworking both into actual NE's
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Re: Role Removal

Postby blackaxe3 » Tue Jan 24, 2023 8:18 pm

There is no reason to remove any of these roles from the game. Sure, some reworks would be nice (executioners should not have veterans as targets) but removing roles doesn't make any sense when roles can be completely redone in a way that makes sense. The Retributionist rework is a great example of this.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jan 24, 2023 10:41 pm

OK but the problem with Vampires is fundamental to the role's concept
Namely, conversion is a terrible, unfun, anti-competitive mechanic
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Re: Role Removal

Postby scarfves » Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:57 pm

I mean the Executioner has a status of lieing and should they get their target lynched; they perfectly get away with it, which is a privilege that the Witch doesn't have. Additionally, the witch has to keep themselves alive to win, even if the impact made by the witch was tremendous to let the Mafia or NK win, there's no guarantee that the witch wins in the end, and it becomes annoying as a role like the NK when the witch stunlocks you indefinitely to let the mafia win. Personally, the equivalent of -1 town and an irremovable but inconsistent annoyance for -1 active town ability per night by a hard to find inconsistent annoyance are the same for me. I don't see any issue with the Exe fitting into NE.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:48 am

MysticMismagius wrote:OK but the problem with Vampires is fundamental to the role's concept
Namely, conversion is a terrible, unfun, anti-competitive mechanic

Subjective, conversion is fine if you're expecting it in a game mode, if your complaining about being converted in dracluars palace or a custom mode with vampires, then like what are you doing playing a game mode with converts lol.

But if you enjoy the aspect that you can't even trust previously confirmed people and it you know what you're getting into beforehand then it's fine. I think all any is a chaos mode so i don't really care about it's balance over ranked game modes where jester/exe cause tons of issues, but i do think vamps have no place spawning randomly in all any.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:37 am

yea but, i paid good kickstarter money to have the vamps role, and all any is the only mode that has active queues. I even scroll for the vampire role and I think they should be buffed to have abilities. VH should be nerfed so as not to read night chat. An undercover faction is pretty cool tbh and takes a different play style than any other faction in the game. Removing them gives 1 less style of gameplay to master.

Idk how people figure conversion is anti competitive, starting as a solo vamp is very competitive and unless the role list is majorly town sided anyway, chances are youre gonna die before getting that many converts, with all the night defence, TPs, TKs, plus evil factions and NKs to contend with, the only time you have an advantage is in a townie heavy spawn
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Re: Role Removal

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Feb 05, 2023 6:27 pm

kyuss420 wrote:Idk how people figure conversion is anti competitive, starting as a solo vamp is very competitive and unless the role list is majorly town sided anyway, chances are youre gonna die before getting that many converts, with all the night defence, TPs, TKs, plus evil factions and NKs to contend with, the only time you have an advantage is in a townie heavy spawn
Conversion is anti-competitive because of the potential to have your win-condition pulled out from under you. Doing better as a townie inherently means you're put in a worse position if and when you get converted. You are actively punished for playing well, as you instantly go from about to win the game to having to pull Vampires out of the jaws of defeat.

And God help you if you get converted as Jester, because you've usually made a move that's going to get you killed and now you suddenly don't want to die anymore.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Feb 10, 2023 6:05 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:Idk how people figure conversion is anti competitive, starting as a solo vamp is very competitive and unless the role list is majorly town sided anyway, chances are youre gonna die before getting that many converts, with all the night defence, TPs, TKs, plus evil factions and NKs to contend with, the only time you have an advantage is in a townie heavy spawn
Conversion is anti-competitive because of the potential to have your win-condition pulled out from under you. Doing better as a townie inherently means you're put in a worse position if and when you get converted. You are actively punished for playing well, as you instantly go from about to win the game to having to pull Vampires out of the jaws of defeat.

And God help you if you get converted as Jester, because you've usually made a move that's going to get you killed and now you suddenly don't want to die anymore.


well the jester thing is just dumb ass players converting someone because ''no tp will be on them'' If dumbasses cant read the town well enough, to see who will be voted up the following day - you cant work around stupid, I mean, you may as well delete every role in the game if we're basing it on if stupid people can make a faction lose.

I dont think if youve played well as town, youre put in a worse position when converted... its like youve become town traitor, you have towns trust and can secretly vamp out, and its not really 'playing well' when town have started with a huge number advantage anyway.... which comes with a huge night ability advantage... which comes with a huge information advantage... which is why town was ''playing well''.

If the role list isnt town heavy, vamps are disadvantged from the start, especially if theres only 1 or 2 of them, and town have the same disadvantage. Vamps have no night abilities and rely on town for information, and town are pretty much treated as the same faction by any smart vamps cos you dont want to lose your information stream by converting important roles too early. This allows important roles to play well and gain an advantage, then you can convert and take the advantage for your own faction.... if youve survived long enough and stayed hidden long enough to do it.

So what you see as anti competitive for town, is what makes the vampire faction competitive if you want to strategise them
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Re: Role Removal

Postby MysticMismagius » Fri Feb 10, 2023 8:35 pm

The point with the Jester thing is you're still punished for doing well, pretty much regardless of what role you were when you got converted

You can talk all about how getting converted in a losing game for Vampires is like becoming Town Traitor but that is still an inherently worse position to be in than just... being Town and getting the win with other Townies right then and there.

Imagine a scenario where the last Vampire converts you, a "confirmed" townie, as they die. There are 6+ townies left excluding you. That Vampire has fucked you over, and if you manage to pull it back and win anyways that doesn't change.

Had you known you were going to be converted right then, you'd have let some Vampires get away with lying so that you'd have teammates to improve your odds in your new position. But you, hypothetical Townie, treated an enemy faction like an enemy faction and tried to kill off as many Vampires as possible. For this grave sin, you have been punished with having your win-condition flipped in the worst possible situation.

It's this perverse incentive, to treat an enemy faction like an ally because otherwise you might get converted and every bit of progress you made as your original role becomes not just moot but actively detrimental, that makes conversion anti-competitive.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby WaveAqualei » Fri Feb 10, 2023 9:05 pm

kyuss420 wrote:yea but, i paid good kickstarter money to have the vamps role, and all any is the only mode that has active queues. I even scroll for the vampire role and I think they should be buffed to have abilities. VH should be nerfed so as not to read night chat. An undercover faction is pretty cool tbh and takes a different play style than any other faction in the game. Removing them gives 1 less style of gameplay to master.

Idk how people figure conversion is anti competitive, starting as a solo vamp is very competitive and unless the role list is majorly town sided anyway, chances are youre gonna die before getting that many converts, with all the night defence, TPs, TKs, plus evil factions and NKs to contend with, the only time you have an advantage is in a townie heavy spawn

I mean it's clear that you're biased about your own contribution to the game; I would be upset if something that I spent money on got removed. But what you spent your money isn't good for the game, as it's heavily disliked and easily expendable. I wouldn't mind it being changed into another concept but a bunch of people want it out anyway. It's just not worth keeping, period.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Feb 18, 2023 6:20 pm

WaveAqualei wrote:[

I mean it's clear that you're biased about your own contribution to the game; I would be upset if something that I spent money on got removed. But what you spent your money isn't good for the game, as it's heavily disliked and easily expendable. I wouldn't mind it being changed into another concept but a bunch of people want it out anyway. It's just not worth keeping, period.[/quote]

I mean the whole game revolves around not being so salty when you play well and still lose... especially all any where many scenarios can take place... maybe we should remove hex master, because town can play well and get rid of all the mafia and coven and then hex bomb goes off on day 5/6 and coven take the win... maybe arso should be unique because town can play well and then n5 igniton wrecks them all... maybe jailor and mayor should be removed because evil factions can play a perfect game then get put in a losing situation because of those roles... maybe we should remove MK cos how many times have I been jester and mafia killed me when i was going to be lynched the following day.....

Picking vampires and the conversion situation out of all of the unfair scenarios that constantly happen in an all any match...especially when playing as evil or nuetral...just seems a little salty to me, but I am an evil/nuetral scroller so perhaps i am a bit biased

I mean, who is it heavily disliked by? serial townies that dont even try when they roll evils? sandbox players that only have 1 playstyle? The majority of players who think town should always win unless town played bad - then do the big finger pointing thing in dead chat, when town had no hope against the pro players who rolled coven anyway? I could argue that playing as any evil role is heavily disliked by the majority of the community...
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Re: Role Removal

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat Feb 18, 2023 8:08 pm

I'm not gonna break down how each scenario you've listed is fundamentally different from conversion because you won't see it no matter how it's explained to you

Just, boiling down the issues with conversion to "lawl salty" is missing the point. It's not just salt that makes conversion bad.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby WaveAqualei » Sun Feb 19, 2023 9:36 pm

kyuss420 wrote:I mean the whole game revolves around not being so salty when you play well and still lose... especially all any where many scenarios can take place... maybe we should remove hex master, because town can play well and get rid of all the mafia and coven and then hex bomb goes off on day 5/6 and coven take the win... maybe arso should be unique because town can play well and then n5 igniton wrecks them all... maybe jailor and mayor should be removed because evil factions can play a perfect game then get put in a losing situation because of those roles... maybe we should remove MK cos how many times have I been jester and mafia killed me when i was going to be lynched the following day.....

Picking vampires and the conversion situation out of all of the unfair scenarios that constantly happen in an all any match...especially when playing as evil or nuetral...just seems a little salty to me, but I am an evil/nuetral scroller so perhaps i am a bit biased

I mean, who is it heavily disliked by? serial townies that dont even try when they roll evils? sandbox players that only have 1 playstyle? The majority of players who think town should always win unless town played bad - then do the big finger pointing thing in dead chat, when town had no hope against the pro players who rolled coven anyway? I could argue that playing as any evil role is heavily disliked by the majority of the community...

Hex Master's Final Hex should be edited to not kill roles with natural defense. I'm fine with Neutral Killings all being unique. Jailor should be removed, and Mayor could be changed to be less of a "reveal and get 3 votes" role.
It's not being salty, it's just always an outcome that fucks you over. I'd rather die than be converted.
The majority of players don't like Vampire because of how random it is in ToS mechanics.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Feb 20, 2023 11:15 am

kyuss420 wrote:I mean the whole game revolves around not being so salty when you play well and still lose... especially all any where many scenarios can take place... maybe we should remove hex master, because town can play well and get rid of all the mafia and coven and then hex bomb goes off on day 5/6 and coven take the win...
they didnt play so well if they didnt eliminate HM tho, coven played better than town there
maybe arso should be unique because town can play well and then n5 igniton wrecks them all...
with how passive douses work then yeah arso should be unique
maybe jailor and mayor should be removed because evil factions can play a perfect game then get put in a losing situation because of those roles...
jailor needs big nerfs, mayor could also get some tweaking, but if evils really played a perfect game those 2 wouldnt put them in a losing situation
maybe we should remove MK cos how many times have I been jester and mafia killed me when i was going to be lynched the following day.....
jest needs a rework imo but even then, this is a very different situation

Picking vampires and the conversion situation out of all of the unfair scenarios that constantly happen in an all any match...especially when playing as evil or nuetral...just seems a little salty to me, but I am an evil/nuetral scroller so perhaps i am a bit biased
Conversion is way different, the thing is if you play good, get vampires killed/lynched but get bitten, all your good plays will backslash you
Same if you play bad, like if you make a mistake and get a townie lynched and then get bitten, that misslynch prizes you

Or if the game is decided; 5 town vs a single outed vampire, if vamps can bite that night then someone there is gonna lose the game despite having worked for town and having town win


I mean, who is it heavily disliked by? serial townies that dont even try when they roll evils? sandbox players that only have 1 playstyle? The majority of players who think town should always win unless town played bad - then do the big finger pointing thing in dead chat, when town had no hope against the pro players who rolled coven anyway? I could argue that playing as any evil role is heavily disliked by the majority of the community...


Yeah many roles are disliked, wether because they suck (framer) or they are not fun to play as (mafioso, poisoner) and those roles should be changed
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Re: Role Removal

Postby Algus » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:15 am

exe being a possibility is important for evil roles; its why d2 sheriff claims arent absolutely trusted

id rework vamps/vh by making vh neutral whose only objective is to kill the oldest, then kill all the vamps with the oldest
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Re: Role Removal

Postby WildCard65 » Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:05 pm

This is only a grapevine rumour, but Vampires may be removed.
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Re: Role Removal

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:18 pm

WildCard65 wrote:This is only a grapevine rumour, but Vampires may be removed.
No, Wildcard65.
You can’t do that. You can’t get my hopes up like that. That’s just cruel.

ETA: In all seriousness, where did this rumor come from? Who told you this, and where did they claim to hear it from?
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Re: Role Removal

Postby WildCard65 » Wed Feb 22, 2023 5:44 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
WildCard65 wrote:This is only a grapevine rumour, but Vampires may be removed.
No, Wildcard65.
You can’t do that. You can’t get my hopes up like that. That’s just cruel.

ETA: In all seriousness, where did this rumor come from? Who told you this, and where did they claim to hear it from?


Reddit, apparently a reliable source said so, with Flavourable saying said source as reliable.

Edit: Correction, Flavourable said "A good source"
https://www.reddit.com/r/TownofSalemgam ... &context=3
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