New Ranked List 2022

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New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:34 am

Now that we're in offseason, I'm really hoping we'll run a few Ranked role list tests again, because that was both a lot of fun last time and ended up in a pretty decent spot, all things considered.

So I'd like to wrap back around to this:

shapesifter13 wrote:Jailor
TP
TK
TS
2x TI
4x RT
Mafia: 5
GF
MK
3x RM


I have long been a supporter of making Ranked a straight team-vs-team fight, because it gives the most opportunity for player skill to shine through. If people want, I could definitely expand on this, but if S5 showed us anything it was definitely that the game was still fun without NK (although bringing it back for offseason is a great idea), and so I see exactly zero reason to believe that the same shouldn't be true without NE as well.

Beyond that, I think this initial list from shape last offseason was honestly really good, but I do think that GF potentially being susceptible to a single Escort is a massive issue, so MK should just be Mafioso, and I'd probably make one of the RM slots Mafia Support just so there's less likelihood of a weak Mafia team (Blackmailer, Consig, and Consort are all decently strong - plus, more chance of Blackmailer means whispers get weaker even when they don't rand in a given game).

That would make the list I'm personally hoping gets tested out and used for the next Ranked season:

Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Let me know what you guys think!
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 7:43 am

One idea I'd like to throw out there is that Ambusher may be so strong as to necessitate inclusion by the very fact that it can rand - the extra kills are worth a lot.

Do people agree with this assessment, and if so, does my proposed list still work with an Ambusher instead of the Mafia Support slot?

Note that this would mean that, if the Ambusher nets a kill N1 and N2 alongside the Mafia night kills, then as long as the Mafia get off a singular mislynch on Day 2 the game is over by the start of Day 3, which is really unideal. However, given how strong extra Mafia killpower tends to be, unless Ambusher can be banned from Ranked entirely, this might need to be our solution.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:09 am

Neutrals are needed to make the game more fun, even if its just a witch
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 9:40 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Neutrals are needed to make the game more fun, even if its just a witch

I continue to challenge that notion - Witch in particular is just an uninformed Mafia member when NK doesn't exist, and although I think that dynamic isn't bad to have, I think the skill expression allowable by just letting all the Mafia know each other is greater.

Plus, if you wanna talk just raw possibilities, three RMs can result in a far greater total number of possible rands than two RMs and a Witch - constant Witch is just predictable and stale at this point. A true NE slot with multiple new NE roles and without Exe/Jester would be ideal, strictly speaking, but that isn't possible at the moment, whereas RM is absolutely possible.
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:06 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Do people agree with this assessment, and if so, does my proposed list still work with an Ambusher instead of the Mafia Support slot?
I wonder how viable GF/Maf/Ambu/MS/MD would be

Unrelated, but Hypnotist and Ambusher in classic still feels like an acid trip
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:24 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Do people agree with this assessment, and if so, does my proposed list still work with an Ambusher instead of the Mafia Support slot?
I wonder how viable GF/Maf/Ambu/MS/MD would be

I haven't given it a ton of thought after the buffs and nerfs, but historically at least making the Mafia less predictable was worth more than the more consistent power distribution - having a Consig dying mean that whispers are 100% open season is really not ideal, for example. Possible that's changed, but imo it's unlikely.



MysticMismagius wrote:Unrelated, but Hypnotist and Ambusher in classic still feels like an acid trip

Hypno being there is great even if I think Amb is too powerful to easily fit into Ranked as a randomly there-or-not-there Mafia member

Now we just need Tracker brought over too ;)
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Oct 02, 2022 11:36 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Do people agree with this assessment, and if so, does my proposed list still work with an Ambusher instead of the Mafia Support slot?
I wonder how viable GF/Maf/Ambu/MS/MD would be
I haven't given it a ton of thought after the buffs and nerfs, but historically at least making the Mafia less predictable was worth more than the more consistent power distribution - having a Consig dying mean that whispers are 100% open season is really not ideal, for example. Possible that's changed, but imo it's unlikely.
Understandable, have a nice day
In that case GF/Maf/Ambu/RM/RM would probably be the best version of this Maf list.
(One day we shall get TMK on the table, but until thay day comes...)

orangeandblack5 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Unrelated, but Hypnotist and Ambusher in classic still feels like an acid trip
Hypno being there is great even if I think Ambu is too powerful to easily fit into Ranked as a randomly there-or-not-there Mafia member
Now we just need Tracker brought over too ;)
I'm not saying it's an acid trip because it's bad to have them there
I'm saying it's an acid trip because seeing "Hypnotist" and "Ambusher" on my Mafia list locks my brain into Coven mode like nothing else would. Tracker in Classic would be just as much of a mindfuck but as far as balance goes it probably wouldn't be bad.
I recently played a Classic All Any game with both Hypno and Ambu on my team. I had to physically stop myself from saying shit that would only be true in Coven All Any multiple times.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:39 pm

I'm not a fan of straight Town vs Mafia. My favorite roles are all Neutral, and straight Town vs Maf is too vanilla for a game like ToS. True NEs make the game interesting because they need to scumread while still being evil, and NKs prevent one side from getting too much of an advantage since they can kill members of that team. NBs add another layer of alliance building but they need to be reworked before being balanced enough for inclusion in Ranked. Nothing necessarily wrong with Town vs Mafia though.

Regarding your list I would ideally want Ambusher banned from Ranked entirely. If that's not possible then I don't think it would be necessary to have a static Ambusher considering the massive downside of using their ability wrong. In a 10v5 setup the impact of an individual kill is somewhat lessened since it's no longer MyLo D2, which would make Ambusher less OP than it is in 9v6 Ranked.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:06 pm

I think NE is a great thing to have

But

ToS only has one NE

And Witch is not a better slot than RM
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Oct 03, 2022 2:33 am

I think it's a shame that NK is likely coming back.

While the current list doesn't work it's because mafia have a pretty strong advantage in 6v9, the problem is town is also so powerful with just the amount of roles that can easily confirm themselves it becomes a quick race of get rid of who isn't confirmed currently.

In my opinion we should be really wanting 5v10 formats for ranked, we do need to fix a lot of town roles and improve mafia as a whole.

It's a shame that NK is coming back, I can live with SK generally even if it's kills can lead to mafia getting screwed over a lot, also makes consorts have to play even more carefully, in general SK is likely the least offensive Nk, it works well for what it does, my problem is certainly Arsonist and werewolf just make the game really swingy.

I'm all for more "fun" lists, I think bringing back NK will likely make ranked better in the short run, but in the long run I rather we try to fix town and mafia's dynamic instead of just slapping in NK which generally acts as a unreliable numbers check.

ALSO Sk can just like kill escort and town N1, Mafia can kill a town N1 GG majority, ambusher also just exists, I don't think NK really works in the current suggested list.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:46 pm

Additionally, NK is bad in a competitive game mode like Ranked because they very rarely actually win the game without being kingmade
So basically, in every Ranked game one person is being handed a free loss and there's very little they can do about it
Which is obviously not good for a mode that is supposed to be a test of skill

People like NK because it's fun, and with the buffs it's even more fun
But just because it's fun doesn't mean it's conducive to a competitive game mode
The push and pull between the people who want NK and people who don't will probably never end though
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:01 am

The current plan with the list with NK is, as far as I can tell, to have it temporarily with the off-season. That is, in my opinion, a great idea - gives people who like it time to play with it again at basically no cost.

Not looking forward to everybody just leaving as soon as they get it lol, but it's offseason so whatever
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:38 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:The current plan with the list with NK is, as far as I can tell, to have it temporarily with the off-season. That is, in my opinion, a great idea - gives people who like it time to play with it again at basically no cost.

Not looking forward to everybody just leaving as soon as they get it lol, but it's offseason so whatever

I thought it similar to what we had last time a suggestion.

But in the PTR it was stated it was for Season 6, so the suggested list looks like its going to stay.

Heres the problems:
NE - We need Jester/exe to be seperate from witch, Jester is a literal Neutral benign even it's action to "haunt" is going to effect scum a lot, scum are generally forced to vote Guilty while roles such as Jailor or a confirmed town role can Inno vote and get away with this, EXE is decent but the fact it can turn into jester and once it's targets executed it becomes basically a perm immune survivor means we're going to deal with exe's siding town. Witch objectively has to win with scum, it's a true Neutral evil.

NK - SK is perfectly fine Im iffy on the escort interaction but generally it's a good role, Arso and werewolf are stupid in their current forms, WW has always been a dumb RNG role that discourages night actions just by existing, Arsonist is dependent on being visited now, Detection immune and ignores TP's the current arsonist is a mess, old arso was also bad but current arso is just dumb and doesn't work well with the game.

I'm fine with 5 RT's generally gives claim space, wacky 5 vig or 5 transporter games might exist but im fine with that.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:46 am

Yeah the neutrals need to be rearranged

IMO:
NB should stay the same
NE should be Witch and other Witch-likes
NK should have Plaguebearer/Pestilence added to it
NC should have Jester and Executioner added to it
And Vampires should be moved out of neutrals entirely on the basis that they are a one-role faction and not really a neutral role at all
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Oct 04, 2022 10:58 am

MysticMismagius wrote:Yeah the neutrals need to be rearranged

IMO:
NB should stay the same
NE should be Witch and other Witch-likes
NK should have Plaguebearer/Pestilence added to it
NC should have Jester and Executioner added to it
And Vampires should be moved out of neutrals entirely on the basis that they are a one-role faction and not really a neutral role at all

Agreed, I really want a "casual mode" which is a mix of ranked and all any, when you mentioned the vampires outta neutral slots.
Aka
Jailor
TP
TI
TI
5 RT
GF
Maf
2 RM
2 RN (no vamps)

Allowing Neutral benign to actually be used in a list that isn't a chaotic mess, but again low player count kinda ruins that, ALSO please fix "town traitors" list for normal it's really really frustrating that they're now removing the 1v1 faction mode, but TT kinda fills that... but then witch exists and kind of ruins town traitor for me.
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NB: Guardian Angel
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Oct 04, 2022 11:08 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Yeah the neutrals need to be rearranged

IMO:
NB should stay the same
NE should be Witch and other Witch-likes
NK should have Plaguebearer/Pestilence added to it
NC should have Jester and Executioner added to it
And Vampires should be moved out of neutrals entirely on the basis that they are a one-role faction and not really a neutral role at all
Agreed, I really want a "casual mode" which is a mix of ranked and all any, when you mentioned the vampires outta neutral slots.
Aka: Jailor, TP, TI, TI, 5 RT, GF, Maf, 2 RM, 2 RN (no vamps)

Allowing Neutral benign to actually be used in a list that isn't a chaotic mess, but again low player count kinda ruins that
A true "psuedo-AA" would have Jailor, 8 RT, GF, Maf, 2 RM, and 2 RN ;p
But yeah, the playerbase has been split so much already, new modes are gonna have a rough time

Soulshade55r wrote:ALSO please fix "town traitors" list for normal it's really really frustrating that they're now removing the 1v1 faction mode, but TT kinda fills that... but then witch exists and kind of ruins town traitor for me.
Facts I've always advocated that TT should be a straight 10v5
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Oct 04, 2022 12:02 pm

How to fix NK:

1. Give SK a Conqueror-type wincon. That is, it should automatically win in situations where all opposing players are part of different factions. That would greatly reduce the number of kingmaker situations it can get into. The other NKs (and Pest) should all get this wincon, but it's most important for SK.

2. Ban Werewolf from Ranked. Only because it relies on night numbers. Werewolf can easily be reworked by requiring it to wait a night after killing 2+ people and letting it rampage every night outside the cooldown. Make that change and Werewolf is fine imo.

3. Remove passive douses. Give Arsonist a one-time simultaneous douse+ignite or something to compensate. It may be weak but it's the least swingy NK and also the one with the lowest chance of causing kingmaker situations.

4. Move Pest into NK.

5. Add my Hunter idea. Also a relatively unswingy NK since it can reliably kill 2 players simultaneously and can't randomly kill the wrong alignment in 99% of cases.

6. Fix the damn Elo system so that NKs get the benefits they deserve and inflation isn't such a major issue. If players know that they get +30/-1 as an NK they won't be so likely to leave anymore.

With those changes I think NK would be a viable alignment for Ranked. Even without those changes it's fine. Sure some roles can swing the outcome of the game disproportionately, but we shouldn't balance around bad play. NKs (and NBs) add an element of alliance building that doesn't exist in straight Town vs. Mafia ToS. Sure a 10v5 would likely be reasonably balanced list and far more fun than S5, but it would remove an element of the game that is part of the reason why ToS became as popular as it did.
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Oct 04, 2022 1:49 pm

alex1234321 wrote:How to fix NK:

1. Give SK a Conqueror-type wincon. That is, it should automatically win in situations where all opposing players are part of different factions. That would greatly reduce the number of kingmaker situations it can get into. The other NKs (and Pest) should all get this wincon, but it's most important for SK.

2. Ban Werewolf from Ranked. Only because it relies on night numbers. Werewolf can easily be reworked by requiring it to wait a night after killing 2+ people and letting it rampage every night outside the cooldown. Make that change and Werewolf is fine imo.

3. Remove passive douses. Give Arsonist a one-time simultaneous douse+ignite or something to compensate. It may be weak but it's the least swingy NK and also the one with the lowest chance of causing kingmaker situations.

4. Move Pest into NK.

5. Add my Hunter idea. Also a relatively unswingy NK since it can reliably kill 2 players simultaneously and can't randomly kill the wrong alignment in 99% of cases.

6. Fix the damn Elo system so that NKs get the benefits they deserve and inflation isn't such a major issue. If players know that they get +30/-1 as an NK they won't be so likely to leave anymore.

With those changes I think NK would be a viable alignment for Ranked. Even without those changes it's fine. Sure some roles can swing the outcome of the game disproportionately, but we shouldn't balance around bad play. NKs (and NBs) add an element of alliance building that doesn't exist in straight Town vs. Mafia ToS. Sure a 10v5 would likely be reasonably balanced list and far more fun than S5, but it would remove an element of the game that is part of the reason why ToS became as popular as it did.


Actually really liked old Arsonist (it should be buffed a bit, because it's KPN is pretty low compared to sk).
It acted as a sort of countdown nk, where it wouldn't really get anyone out early game and doesn't really directly hurt both factions constantly, while SK/WWg can mess up a lot of wins for scum and town can be pretty dependent on them. SK at least can pick right and make choices, while ww just gets random kills normally on high priority targets which end up killing mafia, I'd love PB

I think I wouldn't mind if the NK's were "SK/Arso" + any new Nks, mostly your suggested changes are good, I like the idea that SK would auto win at a certain point I really dislike kingmaker scenarios in a ranked setting

I don't think I'm Opposed to nk they make Town of salem more spicy, my biggest gripes with that is how bad the recent changes where, at least to Arsonist, WW has always been a dodo role, witch also needs to be immune to ignites once or douses once, due to once they find a arso the arso/witch are basically both screwing each other over, I just really hate the unpredictable nature of current Arsonist and werewolf, Arso needs changes, werewolf cannot really be changed without a massive overhaul.

I'll also say i pretty much dislike how theirs no counter play to dousing, It was changed to stop "jailor meta" but in general Jailor shouldn't be able to be protected while Jailing, instead of arso just ignoring BG/trapper, Also detection immunity should either be on all nks or None, or have "situational" detection immunity.
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Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
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NC: Pirate
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Oct 06, 2022 4:14 am

okay it seems you may have been correct and the NK/NE list seems like it's the move for season 6

rip lol
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Oct 06, 2022 5:44 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:okay it seems you may have been correct and the NK/NE list seems like it's the move for season 6

rip lol

yep I mean I'm kinda happy that ranked is gonna be fun but at the same time if I wanted a "fun" list I'd go with a edited version of season 1. (TS for two RTS or something)
I feel ya disappointed too, feels like this list was more based of people being upset that nk was removed instead of any community balance suggestions, but it's fine i understand it from a pov of wanting more ranked players.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Oct 06, 2022 10:03 am

What about GF/MK/MS/RM/RM or GF/MK/MS/MD/RM for the evil lineup?

I think that new NEs and a neutral shakeup are probably a long ways off, although I wouldn't hate NEs in ranked if they were able to win while dead
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby cob709 » Thu Oct 06, 2022 11:44 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote: Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

This list is balanced if ambusher becomes coven exclusive. The difference between Mafia having 1 KPN and 2 KPN swings the game drastically between being balanced and in Mafia's favor.

Otherwise, this list should be:
Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Witch

I prefer the former solution be adopted, as a 5-man mafia team would be hype. However, it is uncertain whether the company is willing to remove ambusher from classic.

i hate playing as and against NK :(
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Oct 07, 2022 8:58 am

cob709 wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote: Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Mafia Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

This list is balanced if ambusher becomes coven exclusive. The difference between Mafia having 1 KPN and 2 KPN swings the game drastically between being balanced and in Mafia's favor.

Otherwise, this list should be:
Spoiler: Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher
Random Mafia
Witch

I prefer the former solution be adopted, as a 5-man mafia team would be hype. However, it is uncertain whether the company is willing to remove ambusher from classic.

i hate playing as and against NK :(


I'm sorry but that list is awful for random mafia, having 1 RM isn't fun.
TMK should be implemented as GF/MAFIOSO already hog up too much space for random slots, but having 3 mafia be the same each game makes the game very stale.

Also witch needs more neutral evils to share its wincon before being in its own slot
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:14 am

I am keeping track of a lot of things in the new rank list

Things aint going well, so far out of 14 games town has won 10
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Re: New Ranked List 2022

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Oct 08, 2022 7:59 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I am keeping track of a lot of things in the new rank list

Things aint going well, so far out of 14 games town has won 10


Ideally you would want town to win most games out of all factions
Town Win rate: 50%
Mafia Win rate: 35%
NK win rate: 15%

Town should generally win more then mafia due to having the larger sized faction, but having mafia win "half as much" or less then half as much isn't good, Nk should also have a 10% or higher chance of winning right now winning as NK is pretty much a meme.

I think it's a problem with how role balance is currently, certain town roles need drastic changing, Mafia Should have TMK, considering roles such as mafioso can get caught early, stabbed by sk early, shot by random vets ECT. once you lose your mafioso as Mafia it can become unrecoverable.

Witch like NE's only would boost the win rate slightly, considering how often Jester screws over evils and really has no reason to side anyone.

NK needs a rework, I don't know how you could make them win more without being a complete mess balance wise, you would first need to nerf Town roles by a massive margin. (Which granted that a lot town roles need adjustments/nerfs in my opinion), you also need a more consistent way of killing Jailor then hoping arso douses then ignites them, as it does ruin "jailor meta" a bit but, jailors can just claim once arso is out, or they know that arso isn't in game via SK/WW kill message, also generally its going to make the arso waste a extra night on igniting, likely not the "best play" for the arso themselves.

I plan to make some "data" of ranked games myself but it's a work in progress, right now doing a new role list and no balance changes isn't great.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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