Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby James2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:14 pm

"Lol that guy played perfectly and lost. Haha so salty."
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:25 pm

James2 wrote:"Lol that guy played perfectly and lost. Haha so salty."


That just sums up my ranked career.... except the salty part, as an evil role scroller, Im used to playing perfectly and losing, which makes it even more funnier when a townie biased noob starts crying about it, especially in a swingy, mainly RNG based mode, like AA

I mean, if thats the criteria thats used to base nerfs and role removal, then half of the town needs to be nerfed or removed to their own seperate modes XD
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby James2 » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:08 pm

As mafia, perfect play will (by definition) lead to a higher win rate than less-than-perfect play. That is not the case with townies in a vampire game, at least if we're going with BMG's view that townies are supposed to act as if their wincon can't change.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 8:09 am

James2 wrote:As mafia, perfect play will (by definition) lead to a higher win rate than less-than-perfect play. That is not the case with townies in a vampire game, at least if we're going with BMG's view that townies are supposed to act as if their wincon can't change.


My point exactly.... evil perfect game = higher win rate
townie perfect game = 100% win

Now when townies end up with 'higher win rate'' rather than '100% win' in a perfectly played game, evil roles are suddenly unbalanced and need nerfing or removing from the game
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby James2 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:22 pm

I'm not sure how you're still missing the point.

If townies play the way BMG wants them to in vampire games (that is, in a way that maximizes the town's chances of winning), they will win less often than if they played to their own personal win condition (which BMG considers "gamethrowing" under certain conditions).
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Aug 13, 2022 9:59 pm

James2 wrote:I'm not sure how you're still missing the point.

If townies play the way BMG wants them to in vampire games (that is, in a way that maximizes the town's chances of winning), they will win less often than if they played to their own personal win condition (which BMG considers "gamethrowing" under certain conditions).


this is only true at end game if vamps play well enough to get a majority tho. So vamps have already boosted to ''higher win rate'' game by that point. If town let them get to that point, then it was hardly a perfect played match for town.

People in this thread acting like all vamps have to do is spawn, and its an insta town loss.... but they have to get to that point, by targeting well, playing without a night chat early game (and the whole game if a VH is revealed) and voting the right people at the right times, without having any in game abilities, so theyre reliant on townies for info on other evils, while losing that info after conversion, while only being able to do any damage to town every 2nd night... not to mention dealing with the VH, which is basically a Pestilence for vamps....

And the whole point this thread was started because obviously the VH is overpowered in its current state to give Vamps a fair chance of competing early game. Not because vamps are so overpowered they need nerfing
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:32 am

Vampires aren’t overpowered, they’re janky.

The conversion and subsequent turnaround of your win-condition punishes townies and evils alike for playing well. Confirming yourself makes you a valuable target for conversion and that will very often screw you over when Vampires show up.
If you’re town you’ve now lost the ability that confirmed you and you’re usually in a weak Vampire team that you have to pull from the jaws of defeat. And you can’t win with town anymore, so if Vampires are too far gone you’ve just been dragged down with them.
If you’re evil and managed to make yourself look really townie, you’re either dead or Vamps know you have defense now.

You can simultaneously believe that Vampire Hunter is massively OP and makes a Vampire game with one around into a joke, and that Vampires themselves are stupid and need a rework of their own. That is not a contradiction.
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Re: Reminder that VH still needs to be changed

Postby James2 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:00 am

kyuss420 wrote:
James2 wrote:I'm not sure how you're still missing the point.

If townies play the way BMG wants them to in vampire games (that is, in a way that maximizes the town's chances of winning), they will win less often than if they played to their own personal win condition (which BMG considers "gamethrowing" under certain conditions).


this is only true at end game if vamps play well enough to get a majority tho.

It's true at any point in the game where seeking to get converted is a more viable path to victory than seeking to defeat the vampires (while remaining unconverted). If e.g. the other townies are passive and the vampires are about to convert their fourth member, asking them to bite you is very likely the best way of winning the game. Yet BMG considers it "gamethrowing".
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