Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

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Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby MarsGodofWar » Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:48 am

This game needs more variety and needs to be less repetitive to prevent players from getting bored. Having only one set-up for ranked is very very lazy. The game of Mafia has plenty of competitive set-ups. But BMG is focusing on their Jailor meta and abolishing Neutral Killing. Why was it so hard for you to come up with one decent set-up? Ridicilous. We shouldn't be forced to play the same set-up months on end, no wonder people are getting bloody sick of this game. We should have at least 10 sets-ups that can occur when you join a ranked game. So players have a different experience each time and can learn new game styles. These set-us need to be competitive, fun, and balanced. I've tried my best to suggest a variety of different set-ups below. All these set-ups are based on my role suggestions to counter the Jailor meta, found here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=116255 ,my excellent role changes thread: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=115932 and having a TMK system (preferably one without Mafioso) like the one suggested here: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=116310

A set-up that I've created to be close as possible to the current list. This set-up has a Mafia killing role that can appear instead of Mafioso. No testing on TMK has been done so I was unsure on the idea of removing a Random Town and replacing it with another Neutral Evil or a Benign
Jailor
Town Protective
Town Power
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Mafia Killing
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Evil

Mechanics:
Random Town (includes govt)
Random Mafia (excludes MK)

A set-up where a Jailor cannot occur, but a confirmed Vigilante instead and there is a Town Government in the role list allowing a Mayor or Marshall to take charge. These roles must reveal themselves at the right time to avoid the threat of a Judge or Auditor
Vigilante
Bodyguard
Town Government
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Power
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing


Mechanics:
Random Town (excludes unique/govt)
Random Mafia (limit 1 mk)

In this setup the town have more cards to play with, having both a confirmed Jailor & Town Government they've got plenty of ways to deal with evils. But they still have to be careful as the evils also have some advantages
Jailor
Town Government
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Power
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Consigliere
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Plaguebearer or Arsonist
Neutral Evil

Mechanics:
Random Town (excludes unique/govt)
Random Mafia (limit 1 mk)

A simple set-up where either a Jailor, Mayor or Marshall can occur, but only one of them can exist in the game. Are you a Mayor whos been Jailed? Best to lie about your role as that is most definitely a Kidnapper
Town Unique
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Power
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Mafia Killing
Random Mafia
Neutral Killing

Neutral Evil


Mechanics:
Random Town (excludes unique/govt)
Random Mafia (excludes MK)

An old style setup with 3 Mafia, NB, NE & NK.
Jailor
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Killing
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town

Godfather
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Neutral Benign
Neutral Evil
Neutral Killing


Role List Changes
I've also made suggestions for a role categories change. I've removed Town Support and added in Town Power, Town Government and Town Unique
Town Power = Roles with special active abilities or useful attributes
Town Government = Government style roles that can lead the town and reveal themselves, only includes Mayor and Marshall
Town Unique = Unique roles that are more powerful than other roles and need their own category. I have not included Retributionist or Veteran in here. Veteran shouldn't be unique and although Retributionist should remain unique, it isn't useful enough to be included in here and I thought it would fit better into Town Power

Medium is now included in Town Investigative as it not a role that is on par with other roles that appeared in Town Support and Medium does act as an Investigative type role. A popular rework idea is to allow Medium to investigate corpses instead. Certain roles can also occur in multiple categories making it a bit harder to work out who everyone is.

I also suggest adding certain roles from coven such as Tracker to the base game.

Please suggest any changes to the role categories. This isn't a done deal and I believe it could still need changing. It is just what I came up with for now.

Role Categories:
Mafia Killing: Ambusher, Kidnapper, Sniper
Random Mafia: Now includes Agent. Possible option: Exclude Mafia Killing
Town Investigative: Tracker, Lookout, Investigator, Sheriff, Spy, Medium
Town Protective: Bodyguard, Doctor, Transporter, Trapper
Town Killing: Vigilante, Veteran, Trapper, Bodyguard
Town Power: Escort, Transporter, Retributionist, Bodyguard, Trapper
Town Unique: Mayor, Marshall, Jailor
Town Government: Mayor, Marshall
Random Town: Possible option: exclude Town Unique & Government or limit to 1
Neutral Evil: Judge, Auditor, Witch
Neutral Benign: Amnesiac, Survivor, Executioner, Jester
Neutral Killing: Serial Killer, Arsonist, Werewolf, Plaguebearer, Juggernaut
Roles to leave out of ranked: Pirate, Vampire, Guardian Angel, Crusader, Vampire Hunter and Psychic (until reworked)
Last edited by MarsGodofWar on Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:37 pm

I think it'd be better to just stick in Ranked V3 as a non-Ranked role list. Trivial and doesn't step on anyone's precious precious Elo.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby EqsyLootz » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:09 pm

You gotta explain how those roles work first :)
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby MarsGodofWar » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:43 pm

SilverCruz wrote:I think it'd be better to just stick in Ranked V3 as a non-Ranked role list. Trivial and doesn't step on anyone's precious precious Elo.


Wtf is Ranked V3? I don't understand what your last sentence has to do with anything "Trivial and doesn't step on anyone's precious precious Elo." If players are good at the game then they should be able to play more then one competive set-up without them losing all the time

There are possibilities for thousands of set-ups. Creating a list of multiple ranked set-ups (5-10) shouldn't be that much to ask for. If they want to improve their game and stop players from getting bored, then have more than one competitive set-up to allow different gameplay styles.

EqsyLootz wrote:You gotta explain how those roles work first :)


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=116256&p=3592019#p3592019
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:30 pm

Ranked V3 is the same as the current Ranked role list, except with Neutral Killing and Neutral Evil instead of Witch and Executioner. I call it that because it was the third iteration of the Ranked Role List.

"Creating a list of multiple ranked set-ups (5-10) shouldn't be that much to ask for.", it is if they involve roles that you made up which don't exist and haven't been tested. I am the last guy who's going to go to bat for the negligent fellows responsible for this game, but expecting a bunch of role lists that involve roles you made up before the roles that you made up have been fully considered and tested, let alone implemented in your best case scenario, to happen comes off as... naive at best, to me.

Meanwhile, just adding Ranked V3 as a Normal role list would be effortless. They have presented that they are already capable of adding new role lists, Unranked (and that's what it should be called, "Ranked Practice" has been a stupid name since its inception) itself was not stock when the game was new, and simply having a static list with a Neutral Killing that isn't as blatantly lopsided as Classic (nevermind it excluding Arsonist and Werewolf) with the bonus of not having a static Witch and Executioner ALL THE TIME allowing for plausible deniability and the Hypnotist to maybe actually use the Witch Hypnosis without instantly selling itself out would be a great way to break up the monotony.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby EqsyLootz » Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:51 pm

MarsGodofWar wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:I think it'd be better to just stick in Ranked V3 as a non-Ranked role list. Trivial and doesn't step on anyone's precious precious Elo.


Wtf is Ranked V3? I don't understand what your last sentence has to do with anything "Trivial and doesn't step on anyone's precious precious Elo." If players are good at the game then they should be able to play more then one competive set-up without them losing all the time

There are possibilities for thousands of set-ups. Creating a list of multiple ranked set-ups (5-10) shouldn't be that much to ask for. If they want to improve their game and stop players from getting bored, then have more than one competitive set-up to allow different gameplay styles.

EqsyLootz wrote:You gotta explain how those roles work first :)


viewtopic.php?f=14&t=116256&p=3592019#p3592019


My bad I didn't notice.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:00 pm

Ranked should just have one mode since otherwise people would just wait until the role list that they do the best on is in play for easy elo

I'd support a rotating casual mode tho

A lot of these lists only have 5 evils, which would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too Town-sided
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 9:30 am

Ezradekezra wrote:A lot of these lists only have 5 evils, which would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too Town-sided


The problem with 9v6 is that the game resolves way too quickly. Most of the time the outcome is known by D3 because one of the teams made a mistake. 10v5 gives more room for error for both sides. To balance win rates, Jailor and Mayor should be removed from Ranked and TMK should be added. Spy should be reworked. That way Town is actually uninformed and Mafia isn’t useless or even negative utility.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby MarsGodofWar » Tue Apr 27, 2021 3:10 am

SilverCruz wrote:"Creating a list of multiple ranked set-ups (5-10) shouldn't be that much to ask for.", it is if they involve roles that you made up which don't exist and haven't been tested. I am the last guy who's going to go to bat for the negligent fellows responsible for this game, but expecting a bunch of role lists that involve roles you made up before the roles that you made up have been fully considered and tested, let alone implemented in your best case scenario, to happen comes off as... naive at best, to me.


Well, it is just as easy to create multiple set-ups for the game with the current roles and mechanics. But I believe this game is in a dire strait and lots of roles need reworks etc, so I didn't want to suggest role lists for the current game. My point still stands though; The developers of this game should still be able to implement multiple rotating set-ups to keep people engaged.

Ezradekezra wrote:Ranked should just have one mode since otherwise people would just wait until the role list that they do the best on is in play for easy elo

I'd support a rotating casual mode tho

A lot of these lists only have 5 evils, which would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too Town-sided


Well, it wouldn't be possible to simply wait, if there was a possibility of 5-10 set-ups that could occur each game, without you knowing which one until you've actually joined the game. People like variety and new things, so your scenario of people waiting for one mode is bullshit.

if a player is good enough at this game, they should be good enough to have a decent w/l ratio from various different set-ups.

Also, what alex said about 10v5. If TMK was implemented and Mafioso wasn't used then 9v6 would mostly be overpowered for the evils.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Apr 27, 2021 12:12 pm

Frankly for a TMK setup, Godfather needs to get thrown into the garbage with Mafioso. Reinterpret it as a trait (like having the Necronomicon) that confers roleblock immunity (to keep Escorts from deadlocking, not that they're good at anything else), basic defense, and detection immunity. Assign it to a member of the Mafia, either random or based on a priority list, jumping to another one if the current Godfather goes down.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:10 pm

SilverCruz wrote:Frankly for a TMK setup, Godfather needs to get thrown into the garbage with Mafioso. Reinterpret it as a trait (like having the Necronomicon) that confers roleblock immunity (to keep Escorts from deadlocking, not that they're good at anything else), basic defense, and detection immunity. Assign it to a member of the Mafia, either random or based on a priority list, jumping to another one if the current Godfather goes down.


not really, all TMK ideas come with a mafioso and (sometimes) a GF rework


Reason why Kigirze's TMK idea wasnt completely accepted is because GF became a simple maf member with defense, and mafioso became a mafia amnesiac

Orecreeper's, Cook's and my TMK idea (the most supported ones) had in common that GF decided who kills, or who to kill, because as the leader of the mafia, they needed to have some power


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=114386&p=3566939&hilit=+TMK+poll#p3566939 if you need it
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:55 pm

I fail to understand why the Godfather needs to be a dedicated role for that. Why can't it just be a Trait that gets applied to a different role so that there is still a Godfather, but nobody is saddled with being the obligatory killing guy who doesn't get to do anything else?

Honestly, Mafioso is the worst Mafia role. Framer at least has the pretense of being able to do something unique even if in practice it's a virtually worthless hard counter that's better used for phony forges and attacks (which still hinges on the town having a Spy, I might add), but Mafioso literally only exists because of deadlocks from the Almighty Wesley Jailor and Escort when those could just be removed by not letting the Jailor super roleblock without executing and giving the Godfather Roleblock Immunity, but of course that'd be a legitimate Jailor nerf so we can't have that, and it'd make Escort terrible at anything except getting killed off by a Serial Killer because it gets no feedback. Mafioso has no utility that could not be obsoleted by buffing and nerfing other roles, and only serves to clog up the Mafia's retinue in the Ranked role list.

My Godfather rework is to make it a trait instead of a role. My Mafioso rework is to just delete it entirely because every Mafia role is also Mafioso now. This sharply buffs the Mafia by unclogging its retinue, and if the buff comes off as too extreme for Ranked, then it can be offset by taking away one of the Mafia roles and replacing it with a Neutral, since even knocked down to three Mafia they still have more versatility than the current Mafia because they aren't stuck with two roles that do nothing but commit attacks.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:25 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:Frankly for a TMK setup, Godfather needs to get thrown into the garbage with Mafioso. Reinterpret it as a trait (like having the Necronomicon) that confers roleblock immunity (to keep Escorts from deadlocking, not that they're good at anything else), basic defense, and detection immunity. Assign it to a member of the Mafia, either random or based on a priority list, jumping to another one if the current Godfather goes down.


not really, all TMK ideas come with a mafioso and (sometimes) a GF rework


Reason why Kigirze's TMK idea wasnt completely accepted is because GF became a simple maf member with defense, and mafioso became a mafia amnesiac

Orecreeper's, Cook's and my TMK idea (the most supported ones) had in common that GF decided who kills, or who to kill, because as the leader of the mafia, they needed to have some power


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=114386&p=3566939&hilit=+TMK+poll#p3566939 if you need it

I hadn't noticed that thread since I don't read role ideas. I guess I can't post there now since it's necrobumping, right?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:48 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:Frankly for a TMK setup, Godfather needs to get thrown into the garbage with Mafioso. Reinterpret it as a trait (like having the Necronomicon) that confers roleblock immunity (to keep Escorts from deadlocking, not that they're good at anything else), basic defense, and detection immunity. Assign it to a member of the Mafia, either random or based on a priority list, jumping to another one if the current Godfather goes down.


not really, all TMK ideas come with a mafioso and (sometimes) a GF rework


Reason why Kigirze's TMK idea wasnt completely accepted is because GF became a simple maf member with defense, and mafioso became a mafia amnesiac

Orecreeper's, Cook's and my TMK idea (the most supported ones) had in common that GF decided who kills, or who to kill, because as the leader of the mafia, they needed to have some power


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=114386&p=3566939&hilit=+TMK+poll#p3566939 if you need it

I hadn't noticed that thread since I don't read role ideas. I guess I can't post there now since it's necrobumping, right?


This is one of those threads that alex would want to revive, he needs as many voters as posible
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:50 pm

I asked for permission just in case. Necrobumping rules are weird.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:08 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:Frankly for a TMK setup, Godfather needs to get thrown into the garbage with Mafioso. Reinterpret it as a trait (like having the Necronomicon) that confers roleblock immunity (to keep Escorts from deadlocking, not that they're good at anything else), basic defense, and detection immunity. Assign it to a member of the Mafia, either random or based on a priority list, jumping to another one if the current Godfather goes down.


not really, all TMK ideas come with a mafioso and (sometimes) a GF rework


Reason why Kigirze's TMK idea wasnt completely accepted is because GF became a simple maf member with defense, and mafioso became a mafia amnesiac

Orecreeper's, Cook's and my TMK idea (the most supported ones) had in common that GF decided who kills, or who to kill, because as the leader of the mafia, they needed to have some power


viewtopic.php?f=27&t=114386&p=3566939&hilit=+TMK+poll#p3566939 if you need it

I hadn't noticed that thread since I don't read role ideas. I guess I can't post there now since it's necrobumping, right?


This is one of those threads that alex would want to revive, he needs as many voters as posible


Yeah, I would be okay with someone reviving my TMK thread. I was planning on starting a new vote on that thread with the three most popular ideas since those ones clearly had more votes than the rest, but I didn't get as many votes as I would've liked. If you want to bring it back, go ahead.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby MarsGodofWar » Wed Apr 28, 2021 3:50 am

I've reworked this thread and changed all of the set-ups. I've also suggested a TMK idea to go along with these role lists and I have made suggestions to change the current role categories. Please comment your thoughts
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby ThreeWiseGuys » Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:01 pm

The 3rd setup seems interesting but none of these have been tested and we'd never know if they were balanced or not. I like the Town Power idea but I don't understand why there needs to be both Town Unique and Town Government. Why not just put Jailor with Town Government?
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby rainycake » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:21 pm

I thought the same thing today. But instead of rotating, I would rather if they were random. You enter a game and you might get any of the ranked role lists.
A list with NK roles.
A list with NB roles.
A list with Vampires.

You type your name, rolls start spinning, You get SK and you are in a the town now. You look at the list, it's the list with 2 NKs and no mafia. I think they can make a lot of interesting lists.

There can a good amount of lists so we can actually see all roles while playing.
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:43 pm

rainycake wrote:I thought the same thing today. But instead of rotating, I would rather if they were random. You enter a game and you might get any of the ranked role lists.
A list with NK roles.
A list with NB roles.
A list with Vampires.

You type your name, rolls start spinning, You get SK and you are in a the town now. You look at the list, it's the list with 2 NKs and no mafia. I think they can make a lot of interesting lists.

There can a good amount of lists so we can actually see all roles while playing.


NK and NB can MAYBE be acepted

Vampires in rank is automatic no
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Re: Multiple Rotating Ranked Set-ups

Postby James2 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:47 pm

Interesting idea. Though the new roles would need to be used as standard roles outside Ranked before being put into Ranked lists. Also the lists should be random rather than rotating, to avoid people with friends/alts timing their entry.
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