Ranked Rolelists

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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri Nov 20, 2020 9:21 pm

Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - 6 Scum who objectively work with each other are powerful and random mayors are swingy
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Town Killing - Extra Killing support, but can be used by witch to help mafia [Aka shooting town with vig or making town visit vet]
Random Town - 4 Random slots drastically weakens ccing Ti, Tp ect.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso]
Mafia Support - Extra Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch - Witch is the Best example of a NE whos objectively aganist the town, Witch would be the strongest "Mafia" but be a lone wolf until they find maf.

My orignal suggestion actually had guaranteed mayor of course imo ambusher shouldn't spawn
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Harryyoshi » Sat Nov 21, 2020 10:54 am

Soulshade55r wrote:Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - 6 Scum who objectively work with each other are powerful and random mayors are swingy
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Town Killing - Extra Killing support, but can be used by witch to help mafia [Aka shooting town with vig or making town visit vet]
Random Town - 4 Random slots drastically weakens ccing Ti, Tp ect.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso]
Mafia Support - Extra Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch - Witch is the Best example of a NE whos objectively aganist the town, Witch would be the strongest "Mafia" but be a lone wolf until they find maf.

My orignal suggestion actually had guaranteed mayor of course imo ambusher shouldn't spawn

I would prefer guaranteed Mafioso or an MK slot. 1 TI is actually much worse, since now, the same problem will happen with the other Town alignments, if there is only one claim they are automatically confirmed. Plus, having more than 3 random town will greatly reduce the effectiveness of adding more, since they actually don't add any more claim space.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:24 pm

:devil:
Harryyoshi wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:Jailor - Jailor should always be a guaranteed slot random Jailors spawning is bad.
Mayor - 6 Scum who objectively work with each other are powerful and random mayors are swingy
Town Investigative - Always should be one Investigative
Town Protective - Should be 1 to 2 Protectives on average each game
Town Killing - Extra Killing support, but can be used by witch to help mafia [Aka shooting town with vig or making town visit vet]
Random Town - 4 Random slots drastically weakens ccing Ti, Tp ect.
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Killing [Amb or Mafioso]
Mafia Support - Extra Support
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Witch - Witch is the Best example of a NE whos objectively aganist the town, Witch would be the strongest "Mafia" but be a lone wolf until they find maf.

My orignal suggestion actually had guaranteed mayor of course imo ambusher shouldn't spawn

I would prefer guaranteed Mafioso or an MK slot. 1 TI is actually much worse, since now, the same problem will happen with the other Town alignments, if there is only one claim they are automatically confirmed. Plus, having more than 3 random town will greatly reduce the effectiveness of adding more, since they actually don't add any more claim space.


Problem with mafioso it's a bad role to play but is needed cuz of no tatical mafia
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby FlamingJune05 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:13 am

Jailor
Town Invest
Town Invest
Town Protect
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town 1
Random Town 2
Random Town 3
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Serial Killer

-

I don't change the current list too much; I just modified Witch / Exe as '' Neutral Evil '' category and I added Serial Killer as 15th place. Here is why;

1) Usually; mafia members don't want to win with Witch (because community is toxic and they think killing their outer-assistant is hilarious). So they either kill or lynch the witch at late game. Witches are usually victims in these toxic games.

2) In connection with reason 1; Witch don't have freedom to choose who to play with. Witch ''has to'' help mafia -no matter how bad / toxic they are. In past; Witch was free about play with whoever s/he wants, but it is impossible now.

3) I am also aware about neutral killing's buff's; that's why I avoid adding ''neutral killing category'', so I put Serial Killer. Because with Arsonist or Werewolf, ''Town Win'' is nearly impossible. SK's buffs can be handled if town play good and carefully. Besides, SK can kill mafia members too, so there would be balance about non-town members. There is no balance in current role-list. Why? Clearly; Exe plays with Maf to lynch his/her target, Witch plays with Maf because it is his/her only option. So... Mafia organically has 4 people, but in reality, Mafia has 6 people during vote secanses: One friend who cannot be killed during all game (Exe), and another one who feed them with exact informations about roles of town members (Witch). It is just ''too much power'' for evils. Yes there is a ''Vigilante'' role who can kill mafia members; but generally Witch uses the Vigi and kills another townie with him. We need a non-town role who can kill mafia members with his free-will and, I think, best option for this role is SK.
Last edited by FlamingJune05 on Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:16 am

Spoiler:
FlamingJune05 wrote:Jailor
Town Invest
Town Invest
Town Protect
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town 1
Random Town 2
Random Town 3
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Serial Killer

-

I don't change the current list too much; I just modified Witch / Exe as '' Neutral Evil '' category and I added Serial Killer as 15th place. Here is why;

1) Usually; mafia members don't want to win with Witch (because community is toxic and they think killing their outer-assistant is hilarious). So they either kill or lynch the witch at late game. Witches are usually victims in these toxic games.

2) In connection with reason 1; Witch don't have freedom to choose who to play with. Witch ''has to'' help mafia -no matter how bad / toxic they are. In past; Witch was free about play with whoever s/he wants, but it is impossible now.

3) I am also aware about neutral killing's buff's; that's why I avoid adding ''neutral killing category'', so I put Serial Killer. Because with Arsonist or Werewolf, ''Town Win'' is nearly impossible. SK's buffs can be handled if town play good and carefully. Besides, SK can kill mafia members too, so there would be balance about non-town members. There is no balance in current role-list. Why? Clearly; Exe plays with Maf to lynch his target, Witch plays with Maf because it is his/her only option. So... Mafia organically has 4 people, but in reality, Mafia has 6 people during vote secanses: One friend who cannot be killed during all game (Exe), and another one who feed them with exact informations about roles of town members (Witch). It is just ''too much power'' for evils. Yes there is a ''Vigilante'' role who can kill mafia members; but generally Witch uses the Vigi and kills another townie with him. We need a non-town role who can kill mafia members with his free-will and, I think, best option for this role is SK.

/nosupport

This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby FlamingJune05 » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:09 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:/nosupport

This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.


Hello. Firstly, thanks for your comment.

In Season 4; Neutral Killing roles and random mafia members has not such powers like today. There was no Ambusher nor Hypnotist; Disguiser not used to messing Spy and Lookout informations. I see your point and that's right; but playing SK was ''never'' easy to play. On the other hand; if Mafia killed the Jailor at n1, town loses a large part of their power. (Since Vigi cannot shot without information about who is really evil), I think SK would be great in town and also SK can work with Exe, Jester or Witch. So there would be 3 main team - neutrals, mafia and town. It is just mafia and town fight right now and I think it is boring. But of course it is subjective comment and it can be improved with another opinions.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:15 pm

FlamingJune05 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:/nosupport

This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.


Hello. Firstly, thanks for your comment.

In Season 4; Neutral Killing roles and random mafia members has not such powers like today. There was no Ambusher nor Hypnotist; Disguiser not used to messing Spy and Lookout informations. I see your point and that's right; but playing SK was ''never'' easy to play. On the other hand; if Mafia killed the Jailor at n1, town loses a large part of their power. (Since Vigi cannot shot without information about who is really evil), I think SK would be great in town and also SK can work with Exe, Jester or Witch. So there would be 3 main team - neutrals, mafia and town. It is just mafia and town fight right now and I think it is boring. But of course it is subjective comment and it can be improved with another opinions.

1.) The fact that SK is hard to win as is exactly why it shouldn't be in Ranked. Even after the NK buffs, NKs would just make suicide plays to give the Mafia a better chance at winning since they knew that they were unlikely to win anyway.
2.) The Jailor almost never dies N1 because of the meta.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Descender » Tue Dec 15, 2020 2:32 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
FlamingJune05 wrote:Jailor
Town Invest
Town Invest
Town Protect
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town 1
Random Town 2
Random Town 3
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Neutral Evil
Serial Killer

-

I don't change the current list too much; I just modified Witch / Exe as '' Neutral Evil '' category and I added Serial Killer as 15th place. Here is why;

1) Usually; mafia members don't want to win with Witch (because community is toxic and they think killing their outer-assistant is hilarious). So they either kill or lynch the witch at late game. Witches are usually victims in these toxic games.

2) In connection with reason 1; Witch don't have freedom to choose who to play with. Witch ''has to'' help mafia -no matter how bad / toxic they are. In past; Witch was free about play with whoever s/he wants, but it is impossible now.

3) I am also aware about neutral killing's buff's; that's why I avoid adding ''neutral killing category'', so I put Serial Killer. Because with Arsonist or Werewolf, ''Town Win'' is nearly impossible. SK's buffs can be handled if town play good and carefully. Besides, SK can kill mafia members too, so there would be balance about non-town members. There is no balance in current role-list. Why? Clearly; Exe plays with Maf to lynch his target, Witch plays with Maf because it is his/her only option. So... Mafia organically has 4 people, but in reality, Mafia has 6 people during vote secanses: One friend who cannot be killed during all game (Exe), and another one who feed them with exact informations about roles of town members (Witch). It is just ''too much power'' for evils. Yes there is a ''Vigilante'' role who can kill mafia members; but generally Witch uses the Vigi and kills another townie with him. We need a non-town role who can kill mafia members with his free-will and, I think, best option for this role is SK.

/nosupport

This is literally the Season 4 list, but with the NK slot replaced with a SK. Given that SK is the hardest NK to win as, I don't think that we need a super hardmode that you get 1/15th of the time.

hardest nk to win as is a stretch
but i agree with this
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby superboytim » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:04 am

Darkness3827 wrote:Yeah the 2nd list in particular would change massively based on if a Mayor is in the game. Only way to get around that would be to remake the list with a guaranteed Mayor and try to build it around that. I know Neutral Killings are very love it or hate it, personally I like em but I understand a lot of people don't, which is why I provided the alternatives. Personally though I think either both the Neutral Evil and Neutral Killing have to go or both have to stay. With just Neutral Evil, Witch is forced to side with Mafia and Jester is far more likely to be a kingmaker than if there is a Neutral Killing as a third party to disrupt that. With that said here are a few lists that could work with no Neutral Evil or Neutral Killing.

My initial thought was to make it a 10v5 since the 9v6 works because the 6 evils aren't necessarily on the same side as the Neutral Killing wants both Mafia and Town to lose, Jester is all alone, and Witch can choose to side with Mafia or with the Neutral Killing. 9v6 with all 6 evils being Mafia to me starts to stray into being tilted too far towards Mafia since the Mafia know who all the evils are and with 6 roles have so much information to use. With that said however, I still think it's probably more balanced than a 10v5 mainly because of the existence of Mayor. In a 10v5 having both a Jailor and a Mayor feels like it would be pretty close to an auto win for most games.

No NE, No NK list, 9v6:
Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher

Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Random Mafia

In order to get the 10v5 list to work I think it's imperative that the game can't have both a Jailor and a Mayor. That would simply tip the scales way too far towards Town. Thus the rolelist either has a Jailor or it has a Mayor. With this stipulation then I think a 10v5 list could work given that Mafia has the extra kill power through the Ambusher. Adding the 4th Random Town at least makes it so Mafia has a good bit more claim space so it should be much harder for Town to simply use the rolelist to determine who is evil. This seems like the most balanced way a 10v5 could work. The main issue with this list is that the winrate might be highly dependent on whether it is a Jailor game or a Mayor game. Unfortunately there isn't much of a way to deal with that other than to just remove Mayor from the rolelist entirely which would be kinda lame I feel.

No NE, No NK list, 10v5:
Jailor or Mayor (whichever one isn't picked can not be in the role list)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher

Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Like with the 2nd list I posted in my prior post this list revolves around Town winning through lynching evils and not getting support from kills during the night. This deals with the Mayor issue by simply balancing the list around a guaranteed Mayor. I was debating whether or not to put a guaranteed Ambusher in, but ultimately I think giving Mafia an additional kill per night isn't that big of a deal, given the fact that a Mayor exists in the role list, especially since the Ambusher can't kill the Mayor themselves. It also makes it much more difficult for the Mayor to be protected if an Ambusher can very easily kill the person protecting them, making it far more risky for a Mayor to reveal which adds a lot more strategy I feel and prevents it becoming too similar to the Jailor meta but with a Mayor instead. EDIT: made it 10v5 instead of 9v6.

No NE, no NK, no Jailor list:
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Support
Town Support
Random Town (no Jailor)
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Ambusher

Random Mafia
Random Mafia

Ultimately I think these role lists would get a bit boring as a permanent role list due to the lack of Neutrals, but they could work as part of a Ranked cycle. Something along the lines of a list with Jailor & Neutrals (aka the old list), a list with no Jailor but with Neutrals, a list with Jailor but no Neutrals, and a list with no Jailor and no Neutrals.

how do you have the patience to use a colour every time you write a role/alignment
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby LushEnvy » Sat Jan 30, 2021 1:41 pm

I don't have a specific role list to suggest but I think having the same role list in ranked for 3+ years every time is too long. Spice it up a bit and mix it up every month.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby rakso98 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 12:58 pm

I think ranked is fine as it is, but the Coven ranked role-list is too similar (structurally) to the normal ranked role list. I would change Coven ranked to be more different from normal ranked, to cater to people who have a different taste. That way it could become more popular than it is now.

A lot of people like the "un-swinginess" of the current ranked role list, but I think there are people who also wouldn't mind something that is a bit more fast paced, variable and chaotic/swingy to replace the Coven ranked (especially fans of Coven all any). That way playing the two different ranked game-modes would feel quite different and people could play the one they like.

I have two suggestions for possible role lists:

Role list without Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town support
Town killing
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Executioner

Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

Justifications for excluding Psychic and Spy:

-Psychic is just RNG based, there is little strategy involved (in ranked that is bad)
-Spy is quite similarly to Psychic in that most of the info that you get, comes to you without needing to visit any player/do anything. The existence of this role restricts mafia/coven too much, as it is a hard counter to at least the hypnotist and framer (as well as immune-to-attack evils), which are already by far the weakest mafia roles. Because of this role alone, many mafia in normal ranked choose to not use certain fake claims, and often choose not to visit anyone on night 1. If Coven is added to the ranked role list, having spy as a possibility is even more overpowered for town.

Notes:

-Some people might feel that town is underpowered, but the evils are not all on the same side, and they often will kill each other. Town can still for sure win (if you have played Coven All Any, you know this). Also town is supposed to be a bit weaker when there are multiple factions (so that the other factions can also win)!
-I have excluded neutral benign and neutral chaos roles from these role lists, because they either make the balance of power too random (e.g Guardian Angel will make some random faction much stronger), or the game otherwise too chaotic.
-Comparing the two role lists, the one with neutral killing has a jester instead of an executioner, so that town is not more weak
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:32 pm

rakso98 wrote:I think ranked is fine as it is, but the Coven ranked role-list is too similar (structurally) to the normal ranked role list. I would change Coven ranked to be more different from normal ranked, to cater to people who have a different taste. That way it could become more popular than it is now.

A lot of people like the "un-swinginess" of the current ranked role list, but I think there are people who also wouldn't mind something that is a bit more fast paced, variable and chaotic/swingy to replace the Coven ranked (especially fans of Coven all any). That way playing the two different ranked game-modes would feel quite different and people could play the one they like.

I have two suggestions for possible role lists:

Role list without Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town support
Town killing
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Executioner

Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

Justifications for excluding Psychic and Spy:

-Psychic is just RNG based, there is little strategy involved (in ranked that is bad)
-Spy is quite similarly to Psychic in that most of the info that you get, comes to you without needing to visit any player/do anything. The existence of this role restricts mafia/coven too much, as it is a hard counter to at least the hypnotist and framer (as well as immune-to-attack evils), which are already by far the weakest mafia roles. Because of this role alone, many mafia in normal ranked choose to not use certain fake claims, and often choose not to visit anyone on night 1. If Coven is added to the ranked role list, having spy as a possibility is even more overpowered for town.

Notes:

-Some people might feel that town is underpowered, but the evils are not all on the same side, and they often will kill each other. Town can still for sure win (if you have played Coven All Any, you know this). Also town is supposed to be a bit weaker when there are multiple factions (so that the other factions can also win)!
-I have excluded neutral benign and neutral chaos roles from these role lists, because they either make the balance of power too random (e.g Guardian Angel will make some random faction much stronger), or the game otherwise too chaotic.
-Comparing the two role lists, the one with neutral killing has a jester instead of an executioner, so that town is not more weak



No. Ranked %100 doesn't need more than 2 factions, excluding Neutrals. I personally want a ranked list with more focus on a mix of Neutrals and Mafia, like the old list.
Hey BMG, when's your next DLC announcement??
Also no I am not going to get a PFP because...


My best role ideas:

The Possessor

Arms Dealer

The Reaper

Witch Hunter

Serial Killer (Buff)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:36 pm

rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:23 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority



Lmao yeah it's bad
Hey BMG, when's your next DLC announcement??
Also no I am not going to get a PFP because...


My best role ideas:

The Possessor

Arms Dealer

The Reaper

Witch Hunter

Serial Killer (Buff)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby rakso98 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:06 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 10:42 am

rakso98 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.


The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby DiamondRanger8 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:29 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
rakso98 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.


The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.



Another solution is to add a confirmed Mayor over Jailor, and blacklist Jailor from ranked.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby superboytim » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:47 am

rakso98 wrote:A lot of people like the "un-swinginess" of the current ranked role list, but I think there are people who also wouldn't mind something that is a bit more fast paced, variable and chaotic/swingy to replace the Coven ranked (especially fans of Coven all any). That way playing the two different ranked game-modes would feel quite different and people could play the one they like.

I have two suggestions for possible role lists:

Role list without Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town support
Town killing
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Executioner

Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

an open role madness multiball

nothing can go wrong here

also im like 99% sure no one plays coven ranked ever
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:14 am

DiamondRanger8 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
rakso98 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
rakso98 wrote:Role list with Neutral Killing:

Jailor
Town investigative (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Town protective
Town killing
Town support
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Random town (excluding Psychic and Spy)
Coven leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Godfather
Random mafia
Random mafia
Neutral killing
Jester (with no ELO lost if they die N1)

I'm pretty sure that the Town is supposed to start with the majority


Nah nah, where did you hear that from? :D Clearly, you have been untouched by the heresy of the role lists in Coven All Any, where the graveyard shines in all colors of the rainbow.

My guess would be that even in this role list town would have about a 30-35% win rate or so (with mafia and Coven having about 30% each and NK having 5-10%, and jest maybe about 30%).

Well, maybe my role lists are too chaotic/swingy, but I think having an alternative ranked role list to the normal one would be good (where the meta wouldn't get old as quickly as it does in normal ranked). You can't have both unswinginess and a varied role list/meta. The two things don't mix, and every role list is a compromise between these two goals.

I'm not suggesting these (or something with similar goals) as a replacement for normal ranked anyway, but instead the Coven ranked that nobody plays.


The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.



Another solution is to add a confirmed Mayor over Jailor, and blacklist Jailor from ranked.


Why would we want Mayor in Ranked? It should be blacklisted too. Any role that can self-confirm is bad for the game and especially bad for competitive play. Confirmed players are able to lead the Town with nobody doubting their allegiance, which allows them to have a much larger influence on the game than other Town members.
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby rakso98 » Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:09 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
The game is uninformed majority vs informed minority. The biggest issue with the current Classic Ranked rolelist is that the game is effectively over by D3. Either scum is lynched and the Town can easily catch and kill the remaining scum based on voting behavior and TI results, or Town is lynched and scum quickly gains majority. I prefer 10 Town rolelists since either team can usually win if they make a mistake. The problem is that Town has roles that can singlehandedly swing the outcome of the game and Mafia wastes two slots for killing when it only needs one. With Jailor and Mayor removed from Ranked and TMK implemented, you would have a rolelist with somewhat fair winrates and less meta potential due to there being fewer confirmed Town members. If you want to make it more exciting while still maintaining balance, throw and NK in there.


Good points. I agree with most of what you said. How easy would it be to balance with an NK? The previous role list with an NK was pretty unbalanced apparently, though maybe with the other changes that you are suggesting, it could work better. Maybe instead of blacklisting jailor, some jailor nerf could be implemented and the jailor slot could be changed to RT or TK.
superboytim wrote:
nothing can go wrong here


Even I'm not brave enough to suggest that, though I'm the one who suggested the role list :P
superboytim wrote:also im like 99% sure no one plays coven ranked ever


Yes, and I think one of the reasons is because the role list is too similar to normal ranked, so there is no demand for it. (on the other hand, if no one ever plays it. how bad could it be to run an experiment like this? :D)
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby dolphina » Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:08 pm

why is this getting activity again
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby gergthegog » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:06 pm

Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jan 27, 2022 4:19 pm

Any made the mode extremely unbalanced, it could cause vampire to spawn in rank which is bad for many reasons

Same with NK
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:36 pm

gergthegog wrote:Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK

do i need to revive my petition from a year ago
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Re: Ranked Rolelists

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Jan 27, 2022 11:06 pm

Ezradekezra wrote:
gergthegog wrote:Can we PLEASE get ANY and NK back in ranked. It's the only serious gamemode left and it's boring as hell without ANY or the random NE/NK

do i need to revive my petition from a year ago


What was it?
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