Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby EqsyLootz » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:26 pm

FrancoisHollande wrote:How is "I am friendly SK" gamethrowing if the SK can win this way? Must say I disagree with the game mods here. Especially for a SK with a low player number (= top end of the player list) with higher risk of getting vfr-ed. In some games any Doc-claim after SK kills is instant lynch, and claiming something else is risky if there's Investigators in the game. I can see how an alternative strategy might give the SK a better chances of winning the game aka not getting lynched, and if the SK friendly with town manages to betray and cripple the town before getting lynched D8, that certainly is better than getting lynched D2 over a Doc claim.


Because you're presenting all factions uneaven playing field and you're just going to cost yourself the game if the rest of the game is actually competant.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 4:55 pm

If I claim to be a botter in my will, my account will be permanently banned. There’s no investigation on whether or not I was a bot, admitting to botting is perma’d and unappealable. Real or fake, I get banned.

Why isn’t gamethrowing treated like that?
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Crona111 » Tue Nov 16, 2021 6:47 pm

Kirize12 wrote:If I claim to be a botter in my will, my account will be permanently banned. There’s no investigation on whether or not I was a bot, admitting to botting is perma’d and unappealable. Real or fake, I get banned.

Why isn’t gamethrowing treated like that?


There's no real strategical advantage from pretending to be a bot (Outside from minor, niche cases), whereas roles can win by pretending to throw. Though, in my opinion, every infraction should be judged on a case-by-case basis as context changes everything. We shouldn't ban all fake gamethrowing, where certain cases where you did lie but it was still detrimental to you or your faction can be considered throwing.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Flavorable » Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:40 am

Kirize12 wrote:If I claim to be a botter in my will, my account will be permanently banned. There’s no investigation on whether or not I was a bot, admitting to botting is perma’d and unappealable. Real or fake, I get banned.

Why isn’t gamethrowing treated like that?


If you played normally, you'd only get suspended. And considering this game's history with botters, it's logical that claiming to be one is considered cheating.

Guiltying fake GT is like guiltying someone with the IGN "inappropriate username". It's silly and has no purpose whatsoever.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby blackaxe3 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 11:00 pm

I think the best argument for why fake throwing isn’t throwing is just that - it isn’t.

Fake throwing literally helps you, or at least gives you a good laugh. It’s completely within the rules and I don’t understand why anyone would oppose it.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:38 am

blackaxe3 wrote:I think the best argument for why fake throwing isn’t throwing is just that - it isn’t.

Fake throwing literally helps you, or at least gives you a good laugh. It’s completely within the rules and I don’t understand why anyone would oppose it.


Claiming to be cheating also helps you, but it is against the rules

Claiming that the confirmed sheriff that found your mafioso sus is throwing also helps you, but it is against the rules

It should be the same for fake gamethrowing, specially because GF can say the real mafia numbers in last words and then say that they hoped the town wouldnt believe ut
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Kirize12 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 12:32 am

The important thing here is consistency.

Either pretending to break a rule is ALWAYS, or NEVER, treated as if you broke that rule.

Because there's a lot of tactics that can revolve around "real gamethrowing" as well because of this rule. Think of it this way:

Currently, putting fake mafia members in your will is NOT gamethrowing, it is a strategy to get them lynched.

Because the game should be played under the assumption that every player respects the rules, clearly those fake mafia members are fake and not real, thus meaning that strategy is moot and actually buffs Town as they know those people are not mafia.

With this being said, what's stopping me from understanding that that's how people will think and putting ACTUAL mafia members in my will to make the Town think they're not Mafia - because they can't actually be mafia, right? That's gamethrowing, right? Right?

Either taking the risk should be allowed - which means that both fake and actual mafia members should be allowed to be put in the will as long as the player hasn't explicitly said they're trying to lose the game (in a similar way as to how players who leave can't be reported unless they've stated intention to leave, as after all the player could be gambiting) - or taking the risk shouldn't be allowed, which means pretending to gamethrow is treated as gamethrowing (unless it's explicitly obvious, like Mayor voting up a confirmed townie instead of the mafia member just to vote them innocent to mess with the Mafia member).

The game should not be balanced around players breaking the rules.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby EqsyLootz » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:25 pm

Kirize12 wrote:If I claim to be a botter in my will, my account will be permanently banned. There’s no investigation on whether or not I was a bot, admitting to botting is perma’d and unappealable. Real or fake, I get banned.

Why isn’t gamethrowing treated like that?


Because otherwise even more people will whine about the trial system being unfair.
And as flav kindly pointed out Claiming to cheat is much more believable than fake gamethrowing.

As I said. WE as the trial system CAN NOT prove that someone isn't cheating if they claim to be cheating. we CAN however prove someone isn't gamethrowing.
HUGE difference there.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby EqsyLootz » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:27 pm

Kirize12 wrote:The important thing here is consistency.

Either pretending to break a rule is ALWAYS, or NEVER, treated as if you broke that rule.

Because there's a lot of tactics that can revolve around "real gamethrowing" as well because of this rule. Think of it this way:

Currently, putting fake mafia members in your will is NOT gamethrowing, it is a strategy to get them lynched.

Because the game should be played under the assumption that every player respects the rules, clearly those fake mafia members are fake and not real, thus meaning that strategy is moot and actually buffs Town as they know those people are not mafia.

With this being said, what's stopping me from understanding that that's how people will think and putting ACTUAL mafia members in my will to make the Town think they're not Mafia - because they can't actually be mafia, right? That's gamethrowing, right? Right?

Either taking the risk should be allowed - which means that both fake and actual mafia members should be allowed to be put in the will as long as the player hasn't explicitly said they're trying to lose the game (in a similar way as to how players who leave can't be reported unless they've stated intention to leave, as after all the player could be gambiting) - or taking the risk shouldn't be allowed, which means pretending to gamethrow is treated as gamethrowing (unless it's explicitly obvious, like Mayor voting up a confirmed townie instead of the mafia member just to vote them innocent to mess with the Mafia member).

The game should not be balanced around players breaking the rules.


If you want to join the trial system and see how consistent things get be my guest. Because you genuinely do not know what you are talking about.
To understand the games rules clearly you need to both be a juror and an active player.
The game isn't balanced around players breaking the rules and either way. Flavorable, Levin or any other staff member are NOT in charge of the rules. It's the devs guide that determains what is worth a punishment or not.
If you wish, you can email them with your suggestion about a new rule but don't expect it to be added that's all I can tell you.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:49 pm

The suggestion is about a rule change. I’m literally supporting the OP, I’m not arguing with Flav and Levin isn’t even on this thread. You have NO RIGHT to attack and insult me saying I have no clue what I’m talking about. I’m a human being and you will not disrespect me. If you can’t be civil and make a point without insulting the other person, you should be taking anger management classes.

And yes, currently the game is balanced around players breaking the rules. Because if a player breaks the rules, that affects the game - “are these mafia in their will real or fake?” when the game should be assumed that every player follows the rules. Which means these mafia members cannot possibly be real.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby EqsyLootz » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:01 am

Kirize12 wrote:The suggestion is about a rule change. I’m literally supporting the OP, I’m not arguing with Flav and Levin isn’t even on this thread. You have NO RIGHT to attack and insult me saying I have no clue what I’m talking about. I’m a human being and you will not disrespect me. If you can’t be civil and make a point without insulting the other person, you should be taking anger management classes.

And yes, currently the game is balanced around players breaking the rules. Because if a player breaks the rules, that affects the game - “are these mafia in their will real or fake?” when the game should be assumed that every player follows the rules. Which means these mafia members cannot possibly be real.


I'm not insulting you, don't know where you got that.
I'm just explaining to you why there won't be a rule change and what the difference is in regards to claiming to cheat vs claiming to gamethrow.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:16 am

Kirize12 wrote:And yes, currently the game is balanced around players breaking the rules. Because if a player breaks the rules, that affects the game - “are these mafia in their will real or fake?” when the game should be assumed that every player follows the rules. Which means these mafia members cannot possibly be real.

There's also a middle point: maybe some of the names are real and some aren't. It's not like all of those names will become confirmed. I have to agree with Eqsy though: saying someone doesn't know what they are talking about isn't a personal insult.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:57 pm

Joacgroso wrote:saying someone doesn't know what they are talking about isn't a personal insult.

Depends on the context.

If someone legitimately doesn’t know what they’re talking about (for example, the “do your own research” crowd) the calling them on that is fine. It’s a widely debated subject.

If someone says something that’s just plain WRONG; for example, “Lil Nas X is transgender and uses she/they pronouns, which is why Montero featured them being pregnant” (this isn’t debatable, this is just wrong) then that’s also fine, especially if the person acts arrogant about it (I don’t think I did).

With this, it’s more open ended. I didn’t write this thread, and I’m not the only person posting on it in support of it, so it’s an attack meant to stop me from talking.

As well, the tone of the text was arrogant. “Write an email but it won’t get anywhere” failing to regard the fact that that’s the whole point of this thread.

EqsyLootz wrote:I'm just explaining to you why there won't be a rule change

You actually haven’t explained why there won’t be a rule change, just asserted it. You quoted my post and told me I had no idea what I was talking about, completely ignoring where I gave an example as to how the “fake mafia OK, actual mafia no” hurts the game, because the game should be played under the assumption that every player is following that certain standard that the rules aren’t supposed to be broken.

Under this assumption, no player would EVER write actual mafia members names in their wills, because that is gamethrowing. (This is why “tactical leaving” is a problem) Which subsequently means that every player you have written in the will is confirmed not mafia, which actually hurts your team.

With this being said, why can’t I understand this human assumption and write actual mafia in my will to take suspicion off them?

Currently, the only valid reason is “because the rules say so”, not because it would ruin the game.

I’m OK with fake gamethrowing being valid, but if that’s the case gambits (like the one I just mentioned) also have to be valid. Otherwise fake gamethrowing is useless since you just confirm people who aren’t in the mafia (which buffs Town and nerfs Mafia - and at that point, shouldn’t that be throwing since ur hurting your team?) Either both should be valid or both should be treated as gamethrowing. You don’t need to be part of the trial system to have a belief about the way the game works, and being in the trial system doesn’t make your opinion more valid (for a real life example as to why, Google “Kyle Rittenhouse”)

That’s what I mean about the game being balanced around players breaking the rules. The only way putting fake mafia members in the will currently works is based on the assumption that they are actual mafia members, which means the game is assuming that you are breaking the rules and acting accordingly.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Flavorable » Mon Nov 22, 2021 1:10 pm

How about we don't go astray here? And no, I also didn't read what Eqsy said, even in the slightest, as an insult, but moreso as information that you as a player, with little to no experience in the Trial System may not know/realise.

And, to nip this discussion in the bud a bit. I've said it before and I will say it again: No, fake gamethrowing will not become against the rules. And no, you cannot treat fake gamethrowing the same as fake cheating. Someone claiming to be cheating could actually be cheating, someone who's outting fake mafia members (or outting a fake fellow vamp in vamp chat, and many other instances), can be proven to be false. This doesn't mean the rules are based around people breaking them.

We expect players, ESPECIALLY in these situations, to simply think and play for themselves, and to hold off on reporting until they are CERTAIN that the person outted their fellow team members. The fact that people 'fall for' fake outting of teammates has nothing to do with the rules, and has everything to do with their experience in the community. We're not going to change the rules, just because people assume every outted mafia member ever is an actual mafia member. Just because some people break the rules, does not mean we start banning people who don't break the rules. And there is NEVER a good reason to start randomly banning people for yelling things like "Ugh, 8, why did you guilty a fellow maf?!" on the stand.

In a perfect world, there wouldn't be any rulebreaks, but there being rulebreaks does not excuse a form of guilty until proven innocent stance where we start punishing people for the stupidity of others.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby 405UserNotAllowed » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:45 pm

Flavorable wrote:And no, you cannot treat fake gamethrowing the same as fake cheating. Someone claiming to be cheating could actually be cheating, someone who's outting fake mafia members (or outting a fake fellow vamp in vamp chat, and many other instances), can be proven to be false.


Yes. It can be proven false, but NOT UNTIL AFTER THE GAME. Basically, why should the rest of the players be punished for not knowing whether someone broke the rules or not, especially if that player is trying to make it look as much as possible that they broke that rule, and are openly admitting that they did?

If the players didn't know whether they were really gamethrowing or pretending to gamethrow, and they don't actually know until the end of the game, how is that any different?

Flavorable wrote:This doesn't mean the rules are based around people breaking them


What the heck? Then why on earth would you have rules if they're not made with the concept of people breaking them in mind? If no-one ever broke them, would you even need rules?


Ok, or mabye this isn't it at all, it could just come down to that mabye I have higher standards about what shitty play should and I feel shouldn't be allowed. I don't know at this point. Judging from some of the replies to this post, it does seem I have struck a raw nerve with some players, but also a fair lot of disagreement.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby EqsyLootz » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:57 pm

405UserNotAllowed wrote:
Flavorable wrote:And no, you cannot treat fake gamethrowing the same as fake cheating. Someone claiming to be cheating could actually be cheating, someone who's outting fake mafia members (or outting a fake fellow vamp in vamp chat, and many other instances), can be proven to be false.


Yes. It can be proven false, but NOT UNTIL AFTER THE GAME. Basically, why should the rest of the players be punished for not knowing whether someone broke the rules or not, especially if that player is trying to make it look as much as possible that they broke that rule, and are openly admitting that they did?

If the players didn't know whether they were really gamethrowing or pretending to gamethrow, and they don't actually know until the end of the game, how is that any different?



Flav is saying it's different in regards to trial system. As I said 3 times already. We can confirm if someone pretended to gamethrow. We can't however confirm if someone pretended to cheat.

Also a big role on the players behalf is just wait till the game is over before you report. Don't report in the heat of the moment as guess what, it could simply be another false report that wounds up wasting jurors time.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby James2 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:28 am

Superalex11 wrote:Outing oneself as evil (strictly against town), with the full intention of convincing others that you are truthfully your evil role, goes directly against the spirit of the game.

Not necessarily. Identifying yourself can be advantageous in certain circumstances where there are more than two opposing factions.
Kirize12 wrote:Because the game should be played under the assumption that every player respects the rules, clearly those fake mafia members are fake and not real, thus meaning that strategy is moot and actually buffs Town as they know those people are not mafia.

Right. Fake throwing is a strategy that relies on the existence of real throwers. If there were no real throwers, it wouldn't work. Using the strategy thus allows actual throwers to exert an improper influence on the game.
Flavorable wrote:And, to nip this discussion in the bud a bit.

Why is it desirable to "nip this discussion in the bud"?
EqsyLootz wrote:We can confirm if someone pretended to gamethrow. We can't however confirm if someone pretended to cheat.

This is an essentially bureaucratic argument. What's allowable gameplay should be determined with game integrity in mind, not making the trial system more convenient or efficient.

It's also not entirely true. There are many situations where a player's true intention can be ambiguous, the current rules punish someone who admits to throwing unless their stated intent-to-throw was clearly false. This creates an incentive for fake-throwers to consider how their actions will be viewed by trial jurors, which is extraneous to the game and therefore improper. Either fake throwing should be prohibited on principle, or an admission of throwing (made prior to the end of the game) shouldn't be accepted as evidence.
Also a big role on the players behalf is just wait till the game is over before you report. Don't report in the heat of the moment as guess what, it could simply be another false report that wounds up wasting jurors time.

Then why is there an option to report gamethrowing in-game?
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Dec 04, 2021 1:11 pm

I support this change. The strategy of fake gamethrowing is only viable because there are real gamethrowers. Any strategy that relies on a part of the game that is inherently undesirable should be mitigated in any way possible.

That being said, I don't think jesting should be treated as game throwing and should instead be considered a viable strategy. If I claim to be SK to trick the town into thinking I'm Jester, then I'm trying to accomplish my goal. If gamethrowing didn't exist, then this strategy would still be viable because no part of that strategy relies on people thinking I'm a gamethrowing SK. In fact, it would be an even better strategy in a world without gamethrowing because nobody would expect someone to out their real role as an evil.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby dolphina » Sat Dec 04, 2021 10:53 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I support this change. The strategy of fake gamethrowing is only viable because there are real gamethrowers. Any strategy that relies on a part of the game that is inherently undesirable should be mitigated in any way possible.

That being said, I don't think jesting should be treated as game throwing and should instead be considered a viable strategy. If I claim to be SK to trick the town into thinking I'm Jester, then I'm trying to accomplish my goal. If gamethrowing didn't exist, then this strategy would still be viable because no part of that strategy relies on people thinking I'm a gamethrowing SK. In fact, it would be an even better strategy in a world without gamethrowing because nobody would expect someone to out their real role as an evil.

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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:20 pm

But how can you tell someone "pretending to be a jester" from someone who is just gamethrowing? As people said before, a mafia member can out his whole team and say he only expected to be believed to be a jester. A NK can do the same.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby James2 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:33 pm

Jesters are an interesting case, since pretending to be evil is usually required for its win condition. But the argument for prohibiting false-throwing applies as well to jesters as it does to mafia; in either case the strategy depends on the existence of real throwers for its efficacy.

That doesn't mean pretending to be a bad player should be prohibited (such would render jesting impossible and ban several legitimate strategies for the other factions, in addition to being impossible to define). A jester should be allowed to claim an evil role so long as the play he's simulating could be taken for mere bad play. E.g. a jester who says "I'm SK. If town lets me live I'll kill who you tell me to. I trust you'll side with me in a kingmaker situation." or even "I'm Mafioso and so-and-so is immune, I think they're the NK.". Whether town thinks he's a gamethrowing evil or a merely stupid one is irrelevant to his strategic purpose, so he isn't guilty of fake-throwing.

alex1234321 wrote:I support this change. The strategy of fake gamethrowing is only viable because there are real gamethrowers. Any strategy that relies on a part of the game that is inherently undesirable should be mitigated in any way possible.

That being said, I don't think jesting should be treated as game throwing and should instead be considered a viable strategy. If I claim to be SK to trick the town into thinking I'm Jester, then I'm trying to accomplish my goal. If gamethrowing didn't exist, then this strategy would still be viable because no part of that strategy relies on people thinking I'm a gamethrowing SK. In fact, it would be an even better strategy in a world without gamethrowing because nobody would expect someone to out their real role as an evil.


If pretending to gamethrow is prohibited on the grounds that it relies on gamethrowing (which is already prohibited), then pretending to be a pretend-thrower should also be prohibited on the same grounds.
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby Superalex11 » Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:47 pm

Superalex11 wrote:remove jester
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Re: Rule change regarding fake-gamethrowing

Postby SilverCruz » Wed Dec 08, 2021 2:37 am

This is literally a game about lying.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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